The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    To add to the initial topic, Anakin may have taken the denial of the rank of Master as an insult, but it was simply the principle of the thing to do. The matter of fact was Anakin didn't deserve to be a Jedi Master. He was arrogant, and he went against the Code in many way. Remember that he was appointed, not added by the Council itself. Simple appointment of an individual doesen't mean they deserve an equal title as the other Jedi. The other Jedi on the Council were loyal to the Jedi Code all of their lives without failing or corruption. Anakin was simply a pawn of Palpatine, which is another reason. The Jedi didn't trust Anakin because of this.
  2. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Well, if they didn't trust Anakin before this, why use him as a pawn to spy on Palpatine? In fact, even though they didn't trust him, when he realized that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, he tells Mace! This was the right thing to do. Also, Lucas states on the ROTS commentary that when he tries to stop Mace from killing Palpatine, he actually was doing the right thing from his point of view, sense he didn't know that Palpatine would kill Mace. He walks into the room and the lightning is already going, he didn't hear Palpatine's little "No no no you will die!"
  3. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    apparently the Jedi are the only ones not taken to task for their actions. ObiWan admits to Anakin that he is only there because they can use his friendship. period. how do you defend that. I can accept that Anakin's outburst may have been a little much. but the Explantion that followed from ObiWan , was An INSULT for sure.
  4. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, but they had been sensing Anakin's intentions since he started his training. They may not have known the full story, but their insticts told them that it was dangerous to combine Anakin with Palpatine. If they had only avoided giving in...
  5. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    no offence , and i am not directing this at you specifically, but that is such a lame excuse, and it keeps coming up over and over. i say that is false because the Jedi were practically wrong all through the PT .they could not see anything cleary. the Sith were right under their noses. the Chancellor a Sith was right under their noses. and even when Anakin tells Mace who Sideous really is, they still don't believe. :eek: ' if what you tell me is true " give me a break. they are way to reactionary , and never seem to think proactively at all. unless it is regarding their negative FEELINGS/SUSPICIONS toward Anakin. all they ever come up with is Suspicions and the Clouded stuff and , well that's all they come up with. the Jedi may be great teachers of Jedi , who start their training as all do , as young children. but Anakin was different he had attachments, and he's not evil for that. he had a compassion that they lacked. and he was suposed to be the prophet. and all they ever do is focus on the Negative with him. no wonder he feels like a outsider . they keep projecting this on him. he makes mistakes sure. eg: murdering the Tusken camp. but if someone tortured and caused my mothers death , and i could punish them , i can't say i would'nt. could you? . Anakin is a product of the shortcomings of the Jedi Order. they allow his friendship with Palpatine to continue for YEARS. and then when they have had enough of Palpatine , they hold it against Anakin. that is unless they can use it for thier advantage, in a GAME that Palpatine is the better player. they molded Anakin and gave him Values and then contradict them with this Ummeccsary Spying Game. the Jedi allowed Palpatine to twist his mind , cause the Jedi alloowed the friendship. Anakin was absolutely savable untill the Jedi slapped him in the Face for a Friendship THEY allowed.
  6. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    This is basically what the Jedi tell Anakin: "We put you on the council because we can use you to our advantage by spying on a trusted friend and mentor, which is fine, not a breach of the Jedi code or anything. Anyway, you shouldn't even really be on the council or a Jedi Master, but we'll use you to get what we want. Please don't be offended or upset."

    Maybe Palpatine was right when he said the Jedi and the Sith were the same in almost every way.

    Obi-Wan knows better. He's ashamed to ask Anakin to do this. It hurts him to put Anakin in this deceitful postion, which Palpatine later plays on.

    "They asked you to do something that make you feel dishonest, didn't they?"
  7. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    maybe the jedi council wanted to put "the chosen one" in a powerful position to defeat the sith himself.
  8. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    maybe the jedi council wanted to put "the chosen one" in a powerful position to defeat the sith himself.

    Nope. yeah that's why Mace said " I don't trust him " and Yoda say's " a prophecy that missread could have been " yeah, they really believe in the Chosen one.
  9. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    you dont hav to believe in someone to put them in a powerful position to control their own destiny, even the destiny of the jedi order, i mean look at luke and leia.
  10. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    i agree with what you are saying, but that is not what happened. if they truly believed in him Mace would not say " for your own good stay out of this " stay out of it?. how can he fulfill the prophecy like that?. I guess Mace thought he should be the one to do it.
  11. Master_Ti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2005
    star 4
    I know I'm kind of jumping in here at the end of this debate. But I just have to put in my two cents.

    First off, It is an insult to the *Jedi Order* that Anakin is even ON the council in the first place. He has NO right to be there in the first place, as Palapatine requires nor should desire ANY type of representation on the counil what so ever.

    That being said, Anakin is a flawed jedi, and as such, is unfit for the title of master. Accomplishments alone do not make a true great Jedi. There are a number of components that go into the prestigious rank of Master. Behavior, Wisdom, Intelligence, Experience, Morality. These things are crucial to the spirit of a true jedi. And Anakin lacks all almost all of them. He is arrogant, ignorant, and has on more than one occasion shown no regard for the morals establshed by the hallowed Jedi Code. He has experience, but that experience has brought him misleading praise and recognition. This praise, however well-deserved it may be, has not helped Anakin at all. In fact, it has only been detrimental to his training.

    He *IS* a flawed jedi, one that has somehow managed his way onto the Council. He does not deserve the rank of master, he hasn't earned it.

    *~Ti~*
  12. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Agreed Master Ti, but that's precisely why it was the wrong thing for the Jedi to do; they put Anakin on the council just so they could use him to spy on his friend and mentor...and yes, the Dark Lord of the Sith, but the Jedi didn't know that yet, it was dramatic irony, we knew what they didn't. It was a big mistake, as Anakin didn't possess any of the qualities necessary to be on the council yet, and the Jedi should never put someone on the coucil for the sole purpose of espionage. It degrades the position and the Jedi given the assignment and ostensible promotion.

    Edit: By the way, I totally agree that he didn't deserve it, but the Jedi handled it in the completely wrong manner. They shouldn't have put him on the council in the first place, especially if they were just going to belittle him by using him and denying him the standard rank of master for a Jedi on the council.
  13. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    First off, It is an insult to the *Jedi Order* that Anakin is even ON the council in the first place. He has NO right to be there in the first place, as Palapatine requires nor should desire ANY type of representation on the counil what so ever.

    well the Jedi Council accepted, so don't blame Anakin for getting what he desired. blame the Council for accepting him for All the wrong reasons.

    That being said, Anakin is a flawed jedi, and as such, is unfit for the title of master. Accomplishments alone do not make a true great Jedi. There are a number of components that go into the prestigious rank of Master. Behavior, Wisdom, Intelligence, Experience, Morality. These things are crucial to the spirit of a true jedi.

    Yeah , no argument here.

    And Anakin lacks all almost all of them. He is arrogant, ignorant, and has on more than one occasion shown no regard for the morals establshed by the hallowed Jedi Code.

    Yes the Hallowed Jedi code that say's it is O.k. to Spy on a Friend and the Leader of the Republic based on suspicions. a Code that condones Using it's own members to Spy, by allowing them on the Council only as a Pawn. and not even to acknowledge that they have any other merit to offer . " the only reason you are on the council is because of your friendship with the Chancelor " yeah Great code.

    He has experience, but that experience has brought him misleading praise and recognition. This praise, however well-deserved it may be, has not helped Anakin at all. In fact, it has only been detrimental to his training.

    Misleading praise?. like rescuing the Chancellor and ObiWan and killing Dooku the greatest enemy of the Republic, next to the Sith lord?. yup, he is not worthy of any praise.

  14. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    DUGGY
    if they truly believed in him Mace would not say " for your own good stay out of this " stay out of it?. how can he fulfill the prophecy like that?. I guess Mace thought he should be the one to do it.


    i was going to add this on this with my original post, i swear i was, but, and this is just me talking late at nite, but anakin did hav his lightsaber seducing palpatine's back.

    if he was afraid to attack sidious alone, then maybe mace and company should handle it. i mean, anakin kept asking for greater challenges, like taking on grievious, then he gets his opportunity and he plays it safe, unusual for anakin.

    maybe mace sensed this, and just wanted to continue his plan (arrest palpatine with decided party). maybe he just couldnt think about anakin at that intense bit of time, so he tried to play it safe.
  15. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    this is true to a degree. but when palps tells anakin that everyone wants power and will do anything to achieve it, anakin never stops and thinks that maybe, just maybe it is palpatine who is the one trying to amass more power.
  16. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    if he was afraid to attack sidious alone, then maybe mace and company should handle it. i mean, anakin kept asking for greater challenges, like taking on grievious, then he gets his opportunity and he plays it safe, unusual for anakin.

    He was never afraid, ever. Anakin was confused and felt betrayed . so he felt the right thing to do was report it to his Jedi superiors. see even when he does something right, he is wrong.


    maybe mace sensed this, and just wanted to continue his plan (arrest palpatine with decided party). maybe he just couldnt think about anakin at that intense bit of time, so he tried to play it safe

    well then if that is true you confirmed Mace does not believe in the Prophecy or Anakin as the Chosen one. and also confirm a Jedi error.
  17. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    DUGGY
    He was never afraid, ever. Anakin was confused and felt betrayed . so he felt the right thing to do was report it to his Jedi superiors. see even when he does something right, he is wrong.


    i think anakin had some fear, at the very least that palpatine would die and padme, sweet, sweet padme would be doomed.

    all im saying is, if you put anakin in a position to take control, to be aggressive like in the way he *usually* is, and then he suddenly becomes this model jedi, not taking control like he usually does, you might ask him to sit one out, if you dont hav time to analyse him right at that moment.

    but no matter what the council did, and they were hard on anakin, they didnt deserve to be stabbed in the back by anakin. they were different types of unfair. asking you to spy if you want versus cutting off mace windus hand and dooming the jedi, not the same.
  18. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Ti I agree with you fully.

    A DISGRACE to the order.
  19. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Well for the record. that's not the Question of this thread. But please , continue the Anakin blame game.
  20. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    The commentary is great during this scene and the following scene with Obi-Wan. Rick talks about how the Council scene is to showcase Anakin beginning to openly display his selfishness.

    Lucas talks about how power is willingly given over to a tyrant, in real-world terms, and in the case of Palpatine - how he knew appointing Anakin to the Council would cause a rift with the Jedi and how Anakin knew it would happen as well, but he got involved despite that.

    The focus is more on Palpatine doing something devious and Anakin going along with it out of selfishness.

    Neither Lucas nor McCallum speak in terms of the Jedi doing something wrong at all. Lucas concentrates more on the fact that the Jedi are trying to deal with the corrupt and confused Senate body just handing over more and more control to the Chancellor.

    Rather than getting lost in this idea that the Jedi are doing something terrible, we should concentrate on what Palpatine is doing to Anakin and how the Jedi are trying to make him understand the Chancellor's actions are highly suspect.
  21. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Welcome back to "this side of town" Master Ti
  22. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    In times or War...different circumstances are mandated and upheld. The Jedi Council was well within their moral and legal rights to "make sure" that Palpatine is behaving himself and not committing War crimes or treason. I mean the Jedi are after all the keepers of the peace for the Republic....I'm not saying they're its army....but in many ways they exibit the highest ideals of the Republic and Democracy.

    but how do you justify a statement By ObiWan stating that the Coucil reason is : " The only reason the Council accepted your appointment is because of your friendship with the Chancellor " that is a slap in the face.

    The Jedi Code has stood for 1000's of years....and would have stood for 1000's more if not for Anakin's failings as a Jedi and Man in general. Don't let the notion of Anakin keeping an eye on the Chancellor blind you to the fact that the Jedi were ABSOLUTELY 100% right to suspect Palpatine and "if" they could have determined Palpatine's agenda earlier millions of lives could have been saved. The real crime would have been NOT having someone look into the Chancellor's movements. My only issue with the Council was that they actually expected Anakin to comply with their wishes....when he has proven time and time again to not be reliable, disaplined, or mature enough for an assignment like this.(Mace points this out)


    The Jedi would have lasted another thousand years if the Council was not so Blind and Arrogant to let the Sith return without their even knowing they are in the same room with the Sith Lord for years . Anakin is not responsible for that shortcoming.

    with all respect Commander. :)
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It is quite interesting to note that Lucas ulitmately say that the Jedi weren't doing anything wrong. We may or may not see the wrongness in it, but Lucas sees that they were doing right and Anakin was ******* up continuely. And as Master Ti said, Anakin's not deserving of the rank of Master because of his heroics. But because he's not Master material. However, allowing Palpatine to put Anakin on the Council was the only way to go. By openly opposing Palpatine, it will cause a rift that will be just as damaging as what they ultimately do. For now, the Jedi must act complacent. If Palpatine thinks that the Jedi are going along with his ideals, they can lull him into a false sense of security. Thus making it easier to get him to confide in Anakin.
  24. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    *bows*

    "Lets not make a mess of this in front of the Mods"

    You have done well
  25. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    However, allowing Palpatine to put Anakin on the Council was the only way to go. By openly opposing Palpatine, it will cause a rift that will be just as damaging as what they ultimately do. For now, the Jedi must act complacent. If Palpatine thinks that the Jedi are going along with his ideals, they can lull him into a false sense of security. Thus making it easier to get him to confide in Anakin.

    Your admitting that what they do is Damaging, is all the proof anyone needs to see that Spying was a mistake. and nobody can Blame Anakin for that. ;) he did'nt suggest it . he went along with it. even after the insulting comment by ObiWan about why they accepted him. who would'nt be offended or hurt by that?. to know they only want you there because they can use you.and nothing else. that is something that a Loyal Jedi should not be told. and don't say he was not loyal all the way up to that point.

    True...they were duped, but Mace still beat Sidious and held him under a lightsaber blade before Order 66 was even implimented....and who came along and messed that situation up?
    Yeah thats who...


    See i see it as Mace disregarding the prophecy and acting arrogantly by leaving Anakin behind. so Anakin can come in and get the wrong picture. and since Anakin turned Palps in, Mace is the one who screwed up. he blew off the Chosen one and the prophecy. and Lucas say's Anakin is the chosen one. so Mace screwed up. his judgement is Clouded. has been for years.
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