The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I never said that spying was a mistake. I said what was a mistake was putting Anakin on the Council period. But by not putting him on there, it would've been just as bad as it is when they put him on there.
  2. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    yes it was an Insulting Mistake. they could say NO to palps. they were leading the troops in the War. they were heros. they had leverage.
  3. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Duggy: See i see it as Mace disregarding the prophecy and acting arrogantly by leaving Anakin behind. so Anakin can come in and get the wrong picture.

    *Sidious voice* "no..no...NO!!!"

    Remember in the original scene Anakin sees the Entire Fight and still betrays Mace Windu. Anakin was always going to betray Mace or whomever because he has an agenda in place.

    1. He wants Padme as a possession
    2. He wants more power than ANY Jedi

    The Prophecy means nothing here because Anakin WAS(destiny) in the room and could have just as easily struck down Sidious as Mace(both men pleaded for his hand). Anakin chose Mace for the reasons I've already listed. That falls 100% on Anakin's back.
  4. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    well i don't count cut scenes , and changed scenes. because they are changed for a reason. the Prophecy is everything. all Anakin wanted to do was keep Palps alive to learn his secret. Lucas also said that when Anakin runs into the room , he sees a power struggle. Palps has been saying the Jedi want to take control. the Jedi say Palps is after total control. Anakin is gettin it from both sides. so when he is Told he is only on the Council as a Spy , and made to feel like he is only good for that to the Jedi, he begins to doubt them. so ultimately add his guilt over killing Dooku, and now Mace is doing the same thing with Palps. he sees the Jedi as wrong. and since he thinks the Jedi are holding Knowledge back from him , and Palps seems to want to help him with his Padme issue.so he sees an opportunity to get some power for himself, and sides with Palpatine. i'm not excusing his flaws, cause i continually acknowledge them. but i beleiev this is how Anakin sees things. he really believes the Jedi are wrong .
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He could use that against them. Make it look like they were going to go rogue on the Republic, because they were refusing to play ball.
  6. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    I believe you in that Anakin did have a different view of the events than he should have. Your assessment is probably 100% accurate as to Anakin's mindstate....but Anakin was willfully blind to the concerns and issues of the Jedi Order in favor of his own agenda.

    When Anakin walked in he saw Mace standing over a defeated Sidious....
    Then he saw Palpatine plead with him for help against the Jedi even AFTER Palpatine has told Anakin that he is the Sith Lord who's been behind the Clone Wars and Dooku?
    That doesn't sound right does it...
    Try this one...Palpatine is also the SAME person who has attempted to have Padme killed on several occasions...yet Anakin still considers Palpatine's mumbo jumbo about the Jedi taking over as legitimate? Strange isn't it?
    Anakin then sees Palpatine shoot lightning from his fingertips....thus confirming his Sith status AND still contemplates the Jedi as evil? WOW
    Either Anakin has learned 0 in 13 years or he's just using the Jedi traitor angle to make himself feel better about betraying the Jedi.
    Considering the quotes tied into Anakin's crying on Mustafar....I think I'm pretty close to right on this one.
  7. arbed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    star 5
    That's the point where my sympathies for Anakin really have a problem continuing out. He's standing there watching Palpidious shoot lightning at Mace and can't figure out that Palpadious is a Sith Lord? After 13 years with the Jedi and Anakin hasn't learned what a Sith is? Then he sides with the Sith over the Jedi and suddenly decides Sith are good and Jedi are evil? And we are supposed to excuse and rationalize this action as being understandable?

    Granted Anakin had issues with the Jedi but his motive as continually mentioned is wanting more and more power to save Padme first, and then to eventually control the SW galaxy.

    Excellent point, Commander76, as I pointed back a few pages. You just said it much better. Also point taken, Duggy. Those two posts (right before this one) excellently sum up both views of the issue.

  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    he knew he was the sith lord before that. it's not a problem of definition as such. what he does is find that palps is the only one who actually offers help. no one else does, so he goes with palps.
    you are not supposed to excuse his actions. you could make the effort and understand that everyone failed him so the only thing he had left was saving padme and so he will side with the person who will support that goal.
    you could acknowledge that he is a human being and that he will do anything to save her.
    he wants power to finally be in control of something, as he is never in control of anything, or else doesn't feel this is the case.
    the power to rule the galaxy is something he never even once mentions until he has delusions of grandeur. that's after a slaughter which would have driven anyone insane (at least this is what i believe, never tried it myself)



  9. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    It's all natural that one who has touched emotion as much as Anakin has would want power.
  10. arbed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    star 5
    darth_frared - I DID point out that both sides of the issue were well spoken in the post above mine. I DO understand both sides, I just happen to agree more with one side than the other, as you do, albiet the other side. I see both sides, thank you. You don't have to be condescending.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    sorry. [face_blush] point taken.
  12. EwokThatCried Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    frared:/>

    You state this as if it is a positive thing when it clearly isn't. Look what he was willing to do and then did.

    So yes, Anakin is a human being. And he did do anything he could to save her - he murdered all sorts of people. And he is damned for it.

    That's not a good quality. That's not helping you support point of view./>/>
  13. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    so, let me rephrase that. or maybe not.

    human beings have qualities. and our qualities lie with wanting to be good. (very generally speaking) anakin has a vital interest in saving padme, he loves her. now i know you will rationalize it into good love and bad love.
    what i mean is that i applaud the desire to want to save people from dying, yeah, you got that right, because it's a human struggle.
    what he does and justifies with that desire, to me, is a different thing. but the desire, the impulse and the love is there.

    so, this same desire, this impulsiveness will make him save luke. so, it's ultimately neither good nor bad. it's just him and his nature. />/>
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    There's a difference. Anakin wanted to save Padme because he was being selfish. He saved Luke because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wasn't thinking of himself, he was thinking of his son. That's what separates the two situations.

    Padme was, from a point of view, dying because nature dictated that she dies in childbirth. Luke was being killed by Palpatine. That's not natural. That's death inflicted by another or as we like to call it, murder. Anakin realizes that he was wrong for what he did with Padme, but was right with Luke.
  15. Obi-Ewan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    His relationships with Padme and Luke are mirrors of each other. In both cases, it starts as lust, an obsession with possessing this person. In Episode II, Padme gives in. In Episode III, his obsession becomes stronger. In Episode V, that obsession returns, as that is the nature of his feelings for Luke: the boy is his flesh and blood, so Vader must possess him, and remake him in his own (Vader's) image. Luke refuses in Episode V. He returns in Episode VI accepting only that Vader used to be his father, Anakin Skywalker, but refusing to have any father/son relationship if it is defined by Vader's rules. Luke is dictating the terms of the relationship, and that is that he only recognizes Anakin Skywalker as his father. Only then does Vader reflect on what he wants from a relationship with Luke, and realize that Palpatine, instead of being the person who could hold his relationships together, actually tore them apart.

    And if Anakin is insulted by the Jedi Council accepting him only because of his relationship with Palpatine, he ought to be looking in the other direction and asking why Palpatine feels he has the authority to make such appointments, based only on Anakin's relationship with him. If he could see past his own naked, unchecked ambition, he might understand the motives of the person granting his wishes.

    And as much as Anakin talks about saving Padme, there is another reason he goes along with Palpatine: he believes in what Palpatine wants to do with the galaxy. This isn't just a case of him knowing Sidious is evil, but looking the other way so he can save Padme. Palpatine has been working on him for years, shaping Anakin's political beliefs. In Episode II he voices his support for a dictatorship. He believes in Palpatine's leadership. Palpatine talked to him about the Sith believing in security and justice; bringing peace and order to the galaxy, a safe and secure society.
  16. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    When Anakin walked in he saw Mace standing over a defeated Sidious....
    Then he saw Palpatine plead with him for help against the Jedi even AFTER Palpatine has told Anakin that he is the Sith Lord who's been behind the Clone Wars and Dooku?



    anakin nolonger cares is palpatine is an evil sith lord,he only cares about keeping padme breathing.



    Try this one...Palpatine is also the SAME person who has attempted to have Padme killed on several occasions...yet Anakin still considers Palpatine's mumbo jumbo about the Jedi taking over as legitimate? Strange isn't it?


    anakin was never too bright and i agree on that one.



    Anakin then sees Palpatine shoot lightning from his fingertips....thus confirming his Sith status AND still contemplates the Jedi as evil? WOW

    anakin no longer cares who is evil and who is not,he has a wife and an unborn child who are more important than the jedi.after he turns evil of course he sees the good guys as evil.



    Either Anakin has learned 0 in 13 years or he's just using the Jedi traitor angle to make himself feel better about betraying the Jedi.


    bingo.according to GL it was only rationalisation he made to believe what he was doing was right.
  17. AnnLouise Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    It keeps coming to this; "well, Anakin was wrong, BUT...", followed by many fingers pointed at many different directions, except at Anakin himself. Every time that "but..." is used it lessens the responsibility of Anakin Skywalker for any decisions he makes. In ROTS, he's reached the age of 22 or so, which in the GFFA seems to be past childhood. Past the age of having to assign blame to the Jedi, Obi-wan, etc. because after all, Anakin can't bear sole responsibility for his actions, reactions, and choices; it's always partly someone else's fault.
  18. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    For starters thanks for only posting part of my post so that it backs what YOU believe. i was actually attempting to empathize with your POV as well. but you still choose to ignore that:rolleyes: , and run with partial quotes. so here it is again. and i do believe my points are well explained . you don't have to agree , even though in my own defence I did try to agree with you on some level.

    excellent post. Although we do know Anakin has done Questionable , and wrong things, and this is not to excuse them ,cause they are not to be. but the Jedi don't know of them . Anakin really was a Patriot. he and Kenobi were THE heros of the War. Anakin has put himself at great risk to save ObiWan for at least 9 times , if you don't count that Business on Cato Neimoidia and has ben noted as a " Hero without fear " . but nonetheless. and what does he get for it?. he gets told that his friendship with the Chancellor , a friendship the the Jedi have allowed , is Wrong. and that the Chancellor , a Mentor that the Jedi have allowed him to have is Questionable. perhaps allowing this friendship was the Jedi's worst mistake. so when the Chancellor makes a obvious move and appoints Anakin to the Council , the Jedi , always Distrustful of Politicians , and the Chancellor , as of the events of ROTS, take the Bait. and instead of clearly making Anakin feel that they are on his side, but need him to perform this Delicate Spying scenario, they allow his appointment , based only on his ability to get close to Palpatine , and accept his Appointment in no way whatsover based on all his Patriotic and Heroic deeds. well really how can we say that a Jedi with any self respect could feel good about that?. we should not be able to, or the Jedi that we know are indeed Blind and very Arrogant. Anakin has always felt like an outsider , and the more heroics he performs and the More accomplishes , they seem to want to make him feel more like an outsider , than someone who is being respected for these traits. really what would any Jedi feel. and compound that with al the lies Palpatine has been feeding him, which seem to almost ring true by actions such as telling him that his friendship with Palps is the ONLY reason he is even on the Council, well what would they expect?. obviously not a Betrayal. but he had a right to be upset. absolutely.


  19. AnnLouise Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    What I was trying to express was that whatever the statement, that word keeps getting used in conjunction with the "why" of Anakin's actions. So misquoting wasn't my intent. [face_peace] So it was more in general, than in regards to your point specifically.
  20. lovelucas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    agree with obiwankoti, i do. even if anakin recognized and realized the sith lord status of palpatine and was able to draw a line from palpatine directly to the attempts on padme's life (which i don't think anyone really could at that point - it's a very slow realization that the separatists were also controlled by palps) it doesn't factor into letting mace kill palaptine. the dreams are real to anakin - they came true for his mother, they will come true for his wife. he only knows of one way to prevent this personal tragedy and that secret remains with palaptine.
  21. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    o.k Ewok, let's begin. start with my last post. I have to step out for a few minutes , so take your time. be thorough , " think "
  22. EwokThatCried Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4

    Here, I think you can borrow DUGGY's workbook. Turn to page 1. You can write notes in the margin:


    Anakin tells Obi-Wan it is treason and Obi-Wan reminds Anakin there is an exception due to the war.

    It would be treason to go against the chancellor and remove him from office without evidence. The film goes into this. The book goes deeper and the deleted scene on the DVD sheds more light. The Jedi have penetrated the veil of the dark side and sense a massive shift in the Force. A nexus between the dark side and the chancellor is apparant. They must know how the sith are influencing the highest office of the Republic.

    It is not treason to employ counter-intelligence and espionage tactics during a time of war. In the real world, it is done ALL the time. It is not treason to send in operatives to root out enemy spies who have infiltrated the government or military.

    When you have suspicion of espionage, you send in your own spies to track enemies from within. This is what the Jedi are doing. They believe the sith have hijacked the Republic and are plotting from within. They need specific evidence in order to justify removing Palpatine. So they start an internal investigation. This is not treason.

    Just because Anakin thinks it is, does not make it so. Obi-Wan reminded him that since they were at war, they had an obligation to prevent the enemy from gaining access to the government or influencing traitors from within.

    Palpatine is the traitor.

    Maybe if you watched some more spy movies, read about WWII espionage, you would see more clearly. Lucas is assuming that Obi-Wan's line "We are at war, Anakin" should suffice.

    The Jedi didn't make a move until they had perfect knowledge of the chancellor's treason.
  23. MasterKenobi777 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2005
    star 2
    "There's a difference. Anakin wanted to save Padme because he was being selfish. He saved Luke because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wasn't thinking of himself, he was thinking of his son. That's what separates the two situations."

    Good point sinister. This is exactly why Anakin is not made a Jedi Master. As I have pointed out in another thread Anakin is extremely skilled and powerful, yet he lacks the certain qualities a master must possess. Control of himself and his emotions and mastery of the Force. By mastery of the Force, I mean that he must be willing to submit himself fully to the will of the Force. Mastery of the Force is not just being able to life large objects through telekinesis or so on but I believe that it requires the individual to become completely selfless, devoting themself completely to the will of the Force and submitting their entire self to it's will. They must be willing to give up everything for the will of the Force, only then do they become a master of the Force. Anakin lacks both of these qualities. He has neither control of himself nor is he will to give up everything to the will of the Force. He is completely selfish in his decisions and he lets his emotions get the better of him, instead of controlling himself. For these reasons alone he does not make a suitable Jedi Master. Being a Jedi Master does not just mean that they have to have exceptional power of the Force and saber; but also control of themself, a total submission of themself to the Force, and another thing Anakin lacks, wisdom. Anakin has never thought clearly, he acts rather upon his emotions instead of thinking it through. Because of this he falls to the dark side. The Council knew of Anakin's weaknesses and his strengths as well but because of the important things he lacks he is not made a Jedi Master.

    As for Palpatine's appointment, if the Council went against the Chancellor and refused him, he could easily turn the Senate and Republic on them. Plus the Chancellor has many more powers than he should. He's practically running the show already and if the Jedi refuse the Chancellor, all hell will break lose upon the Jedi. The Council knows they must accept the appointment, so they do but they also decide to try and use it to their advantage, using Anakin to spy on Palpatine. They were making Anakin spy on one of his closest friends and mentor, and because of this Anakin lost faith in the Jedi Order, especially because it was against the Code. As Obi-Wan pointed out they were "at war" so I believe that because of the circumstances it was the right thing to do. They were waiting and looking for the evidence that needed to remove the Chancellor from office. Unfortunately the Jedi were making him do something he would never want to do and because of his shaken faith in the Order, he looks to Palpatine for advice and help, which all plays into Palpatine's hands just like he wanted.
  24. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    Here, I think you can borrow DUGGY's workbook. Turn to page 1. You can write notes in the margin:

    Thank you , as always that's very considerate of you. :p

    Anakin tells Obi-Wan it is treason and Obi-Wan reminds Anakin there is an exception due to the war.

    See now ObiWan saying that it is not treason based on the War, is not fact, it is Opinion. Jedi opinion. there is a huge difference. The Jedi self admittedly have diminished Force ability. The Jedi have stood right in front of, and dealt with Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sideous for over ten years. They have not had any real reason to question him until the Events leading up to EPIII , as we hear of him getting voted more executive power. the Jedi serve the Senate , which by the Way is the Body that Voted Palpatine more and more Executive power.So really the Jedi's suspicions at this point are still just that. and the Jedi for Many years focus their search for the Sith in the Senate, still not sensing anything with the Chancellor .again who is right in front of them . supporting further that they are BLIND. we know everything that is going on with all sides. and Lucas intended it that way. we are supossed to be able to see what Palpatine/Sideous is up to. the Characters don't know anything . but YOU do, and i think this is where YOU and many others are confused. justifying this Spying action , based on suspicion is in Fact treason. Yes, there has always been Spying in times of War, always will be. but that is not the same as Spying on your own Gov't .
    Gov'ts do Spy on each other , but infiltrating the Highest Office of a DEMOCRACY by it's own Military. ( The Jedi Led the War ). that is Dangerous, and could Destabilize an Entire Political System. you would Justify this based on the Suspicion of a Group of People who Admittedly speak of their diminished ability and Judgement?. so you say that it is O.K.? based on someones incompetence to perform their Job?, so they look elsewhere for blame?. always, always keep in mind that in a Democracy , and in this particular Democracy the SENATE is the People, and the Senate voting the Chancellor power, in a Democracy, is the Voice of the People. the Jedi serve the Senate therefore they serve the Voice of the People.
    if anytime in a Democracy that a group of People based on clouded suspicion of there being an infiltration of the highest Office, and through they're own flaws and shortcomings are unable to DO THEIR JOB, decided to put Spy's there , well that is a slippery slope " to a Dark place this line of thinking will take us " you have to defend the law at all costs. if indeed a President or Chancellor managed to get to high office based on the will of the People, and a certain Blinded, diminished group felt something was out of place and decided to break Democratic law and Spy, then it leaves it wide open to no longer be called or function as a Democracy. any Democracy worth Saving , is surely not worth saving like this. because as i remend you again, you know what the Admitted , diminished , blind Jedi don't. and if you can't oplay Devil's Advocte in a situation such as this , as the Jedi obviously could not , asn they fell right into the trap. well then you are only getting half the story. and since we know how it ends , it is proof of being wrong. because all they had was suspicion and shifts in the Force. i say their ability to stand right in front of Palpatine and noyt feel Sideous, yet still think they should Spy, is wrong. In a Democracy.


    It would be treason to go against the chancellor and remove him from office without evidence. The film goes into this. The book goes deeper and the deleted scene on the DVD sheds more light. The Jedi have penetrated the veil of the dark side and sense a massive shift in the Force. A nexus between the dark side and the chancellor is apparant. They must know how the sith are influencing the highest office of the Republic.

    I can agree with that ;) but the Spying never produced one single positive
  25. yoshifett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Just add "SNAP!" at the end and that post should seal the deal, koti.
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