The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Do you people even know what a spy is or does? :confused:

    According to some of you, you need proof that someone is an enemy within before you can spy. Yet, the the whole purpose of being a counter-spy is to identify the enemy spy. So it is simply illogical to suggest spying must come after the revelation when spying is what is to produce the answer.

    The Jedi aren't spying to sell secrets to the enemy. The Jedi are spying to uncover the enemy within. You spy based on suspicion. If you had concrete evidence there would be no need to spy at all.

    Your backwards logic is amusing.

    And you cannot risk relying on the democratic process when...

    1. There is suspicion the senate is also under the influence of the enemy - their could be spies at any level; the Jedi don't know where the sith is positioned exactly... he could be a senator, a guard, an aid to Palpatine, etc.

    2. The democratic process is eroded to the degree that the Senate no longer has control and all that remains are puppet courts.

    The Senate can't even bring the issue of further dimplomacy to a vote that would lead to results because of the Chancellor's emergency powers overriding everything the Senate does. They have to form another committee and turn in a petition that is ignored.

    MON MOTHMA: Why bother? As a practical matter the Senate no longer exists.

    BAIL ORGANA: It has become increasingly clear to many of us that the Chancellor has become an enemy of democracy.

    GIDDEAN DANU: Senator, I fear you underestimate the amount of corruption that has taken hold in the Senate.

    So guys, go pay attention to the cut scenes. The Senate is incapable of preserving the democracy. Bail and his colleagues are forming the Alliance. They're "traitors" as well...

    Traitors in the same sense as the Jedi, they are trying to remove the Sith influence over corrupt senators in office, and based on the disturbance in the Force, the chancellor as well.

    There is no longer any process other than a covert operation that will discover the sith plot and root out the enemy.

    SNAP! :p

  2. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    Do you people even know what a spy is or does?

    According to some of you, you need proof that someone is an enemy within before you can spy. Yet, the the whole purpose of being a counter-spy is to identify the enemy spy. So it is simply illogical to suggest spying must come after the revelation when spying is what is to produce the answer.

    The Jedi aren't spying to sell secrets to the enemy. The Jedi are spying to uncover the enemy within. You spy based on suspicion. If you had concrete evidence there would be no need to spy at all.

    Your backwards logic is amusing.

    And you cannot risk relying on the democratic process when...


    well the Jedi are not Spies!. GET IT?. as i have pointed out and you now try to dance around, they had no proof which i explained it great detail above. and since YOU know that Palpatine was crooked and the Jedi only suspect based on this diminished abilities, which by even suugesting Spying also affects their judgement. the fact that the Spying produced no positive results, as i have stated above is proven to be correct and even validated for Palpatine by the Senate to make it all Legal.like i also said that the Jedi are a Body that has admitted to having diminished abilities and clouded or questionable Judgement. validated by Yoda's " To a Dark place ...." line. we can debate the details of Spying , but it really does not change the facts i have pointed out. it is hardly BACKWARDS to be able to see that the Moment the Jedi commited themselves to this action , it was game over. but please continue to see it as the only option. cause there were many other ways to do it, and options. Spying is not a Jedi trait.

    1. There is suspicion the senate is also under the influence of the enemy - their could be spies at any level; the Jedi don't know where the sith is positioned exactly... he could be a senator, a guard, an aid to Palpatine, etc.

    but you keep defending this action when i pointed out above that without a doubt the Spying never produced any positive result or the answers they sought. so how do figure it's a valid move?

    2. The democratic process is eroded to the degree that the Senate no longer has control and all that remains are puppet courts.

    well there are obviously loyal Senators, and the beginning of the Rebellion is separate from this Jedi Issue, we are debating if the Spying was the only or correct thing to do. it , by the results it yielded, was not.What Democracy is worth figting for anyway. if you have to cheat to preserve it? as i explained in greater detail in my last post.

    The Senate can't even bring the issue of further dimplomacy to a vote that would lead to results because of the Chancellor's emergency powers overriding everything the Senate does. They have to form another committee and turn in a petition that is ignored.

    so. now your talking about the Senate. nobody is debating if Palpatine is the bad guy or not. i am talking about the fact the Spying never brought any result that favored the Jedi. and it's legality. which i still say is not valid, because the Admitted dimished abilities of the Jedi .they had no proof, and as i said if they were patient they would have gotten the answers they sought. Anakin found out, remember?. right after the Council and Anakin upset each other over the Spying scenario. reread my post above. it is very clear.



    MON MOTHMA: Why bother? As a practical matter the Senate no longer exists.

    BAIL ORGANA: It has become increasingly clear to many of us that the Chancellor has become an enemy of democracy.

    GIDDEAN DANU: Senator, I fear you underestimate the amount of corruption that has taken hold in the Senate.

    So guys, go pay attention to the cut scenes. The Senate is incapable of preserving the democracy. Bail and his colleagues are forming the Alliance. They're "traitors" as well...


    well if you wish to discuss the Senate now, and veer away from the Spying....

    Traitors in the same sense as the Jedi, they are trying to remove the Sith
  3. MasterKenobi777 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2005
    star 2
    "but that is not the same as Spying on your own Gov't .
    Gov'ts do Spy on each other , but infiltrating the Highest Office of a DEMOCRACY by it's own Military. ( The Jedi Led the War )."

    First the Jedi are not the military, they are keepers of the peace. The Clone Army is the military, whose leadership was the Jedi. They are not an army, they are generals or commanders organizing and carrying out both the defense of the Republic and the offensives of the Clone Wars. The Jedi are an organization of the Senate, they are meant to protect the Senate and the Republic. That is who their duty is to, not the Chancellor. They led the army because of their wisdom and their valuable tactics, not because they are good warriors. If they were the military then it would be nothing but Jedi fighting but thats not the case.

    "the Jedi serve the Senate , which by the Way is the Body that Voted Palpatine more and more Executive power.So really the Jedi's suspicions at this point are still just that. and the Jedi for Many years focus their search for the Sith in the Senate, still not sensing anything with the Chancellor ."

    Yes the Jedi serve the Senate, not the Chancellor. Why did the Senate vote Palpatine more and more powers?? Let's look at AOTC. Dooku says to Obi-Wan that "The Senate is now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious." Now in ROTS Obi-Wan tells Anakin to use his feelings. "Something is out of place." The Jedi know the dark side is clouding everything. They feel the dark side surrouding the Chancellor. They know the Senate is under the influence of a Sith Lord. And Chancellor Palpatine keeps gaining more and more power, becoming a dictator right in front of them. These are all grounds to investigate. It is their duty to protect the Republic and they know the dark side surrounds the Chancellor. Their feelings are that the Chancellor is dealing with the Sith, not the actual Dark Lord himself. But based on what they know from Dooku and mainly what they sense through the Force, plus the Chancellor gaining more and more powers they have reasonable suspicion to start an investigation, therefore they do to protect the Republic and democracy. They have enough proof to investigate but they do not have the solid enough evidence to prosecute, therefore they must wait to gain that rock solid info to act.
  4. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    Gov'ts do Spy on each other , but infiltrating the Highest Office of a DEMOCRACY by it's own Military. ( The Jedi Led the War )."

    First the Jedi are not the military, they are keepers of the peace. The Clone Army is the military, whose leadership was the Jedi. They are not an army, they are generals or commanders organizing and carrying out both the defense of the Republic and the offensives of the Clone Wars. The Jedi are an organization of the Senate, they are meant to protect the Senate and the Republic. That is who their duty is to, not the Chancellor. They led the army because of their wisdom and their valuable tactics, not because they are good warriors. If they were the military then it would be nothing but Jedi fighting but thats not the case.


    well THEY ARE the head of the Army as I point out, and with titles such as General Kenobi. we will just have to disagree then. during this time they are a military force. not good Warriors?. Jedi?. o.k.

    Yes the Jedi serve the Senate, not the Chancellor. Why did the Senate vote Palpatine more and more powers?? Let's look at AOTC. Dooku says to Obi-Wan that "The Senate is now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."

    well as i said they are standing right in front of the guy responsible. they don't sense it. they also admitted in AOTC that they should not inform the Senate their ability to use the Force is diminished. it was. they also had not sensed anything specific during that time to find Palps out. how do you find them taking the correct action when are admitted at not being able to do their Job. so a last desperate effort in Spying. which i remind you in my last post never ever found out anything , and never yeilded one positive result. yes, that was not a good idea.

    Now in ROTS Obi-Wan tells Anakin to use his feelings. "Something is out of place." The Jedi know the dark side is clouding everything. They feel the dark side surrouding the Chancellor. They know the Senate is under the influence of a Sith Lord. And Chancellor Palpatine keeps gaining more and more power, becoming a dictator right in front of them. These are all grounds to investigate. It is their duty to protect the Republic and they know the dark side surrounds the Chancellor. Their feelings are that the Chancellor is dealing with the Sith, not the actual Dark Lord himself. But based on what they know from Dooku and mainly what they sense through the Force, plus the Chancellor gaining more and more powers they have reasonable suspicion to start an investigation, therefore they do to protect the Republic and democracy. They have enough proof to investigate but they do not have the solid enough evidence to prosecute, therefore they must wait to gain that rock solid info to act.

    Like i said if they Patience and more Faith in the Force and the Chosen one. they would have found out anyway. even angry Anakin found out and told Mace. except he did'nt Spy to do it. he sat there and listened and Palpatine told him everything. so if the Jedi did not jump the Gun , they would have had the answers they sought. they would not be labelled traitors. and they would not have had to take this whole Spying route , which drove them and Anakin further apart. remember it was right after they push the Spying scenario that Palps gives it all up to Anakin. so tyhe Spying failed. the Jedi took the Bait, and everybody paid.
  5. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    koti, investigations are always hatched when there is suspicion of a crime. You can't collect evidence and aquire proof without investigating.

    My purpose in pointing to the Senate is that you and others have claimed that the Jedi should have relied on the democratic process instead of breaking the law. There was no democratic process anymore.

    There were no legitimate avenues for openly investigating the chancellor. Do you see how he shot down the loyalist committee?

    The Jedi don't really have any political leverage at all. Notice how Lucas is clever to have Mon Mothma hesitate over Padme's suggestion to involve the Jedi? These loyalists don't necessarily trust the Jedi or understand their role in the process. So there is a serious disconnect there.

    The Jedi are on their own to unravel the mystery of the sith. The Force is pointing to the chancellor and that's where they are focusing their investigation.
  6. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2

    But the Spying did'nt work , as i posted :

    The Spying never produced one single positive result. not one.
    Anakin was accepted based on his Closeness to Palpatine.not on any other Merit. He is not supposed to be upset by this?. and Even though the Jedi Drove Anakin farther away by putting him through this, Anakin still accepts. but he does not have to Spy , Anakin just listens and Palpatine tells him everything. no Spying required. and this is supported by the Fact that Anakin went straight to Mace when Palps tell him. he would have done it anyway. if he did while being angry at the Council, then he obviously would have had this whole Spying thing ever come up. Proof the Jedi were wrong, and proof the Jedi were themselves were impatient and Non Believers that Anakin " the Chosen one " would do what he is bound by oath to do. serve the Jedi. oh wait he did. the Jedi chose the wrong route, they should have had more faith in the Force.
  7. MasterKenobi777 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2005
    star 2
    "well THEY ARE the head of the Army as I point out, and with titles such as General Kenobi. we will just have to disagree then. during this time they are a military force. not good Warriors?. Jedi?. o.k."

    "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." - Mace Windu AOTC
    I didn't say they were not good warriors, I said they are not leading because they are good warriros. They lead because of their wisdom and their value to tactics.

    "well as i said they are standing right in front of the guy responsible. they don't sense it. they also admitted in AOTC that they should not inform the Senate their ability to use the Force is diminished. it was. they also had not sensed anything specific during that time to find Palps out. how do you find them taking the correct action when are admitted at not being able to do their Job. so a last desperate effort in Spying. which i remind you in my last post never ever found out anything , and never yeilded one positive result. yes, that was not a good idea"

    "The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." -Yoda AOTC.
    They are losing their ability to use the Force because of the growing dark side, it is clouding what they can see. No matter, in ROTS they sense that the dark side surrounds the Chancellor. That alone is enough grounds to investigate only, which they do to protect the Republic. They have nothing to arrest Palpatine or to bring their suspcions to the Senate. They need the solid evidence to act, this is why they get Anakin to spy on him to find that evidence to remove Palpatine. I have never said that the spying was a good idea, however Anakin is the one who gets the information required to act on their suspicions. By his actions as an informant to the Jedi he gives them the evidence they need. That's the only thing that worked with the spying. Anakin even told Palpatine he was to spy on him because the Jedi don't trust him, so he really can't be an actual spy(working in secret) but still can act as an informant to the Jedi giving him the info they needed to remove Palpatine so in fact it did work.

    "Like i said if they Patience and more Faith in the Force and the Chosen one. they would have found out anyway. even angry Anakin found out and told Mace. except he did'nt Spy to do it. he sat there and listened and Palpatine told him everything. so if the Jedi did not jump the Gun , they would have had the answers they sought. they would not be labelled traitors. and they would not have had to take this whole Spying route , which drove them and Anakin further apart. remember it was right after they push the Spying scenario that Palps gives it all up to Anakin. so tyhe Spying failed. the Jedi took the Bait, and everybody paid."

    By Anakin's actions as an informant to the Jedi they found the evidence they needed to act upon. Putting Anakin with Palpatine to spy and give information to the Jedi worked, they got the solid evidence they needed. The one who failed, in the end, was the Jedi. Mace was going to murder an unarmed Palpatine and Anakin cut off Mace's hand saving Palpatine and the Sith. Through these actions, Palpatine was able to exterminate the Jedi. The Jedi got the answer they were looking for because of Anakin being an informant to the Jedi, therefore they were able to do the right thing and go to arrest Palpatine, however because of Palpatine's promise to help save Padme and Anakin's selfishness the Jedi failed.
  8. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." - Mace Windu AOTC
    I didn't say they were not good warriors, I said they are not leading because they are good warriros. They lead because of their wisdom and their value to tactics.


    Yeah and there was no war when that was said. there is now and Kenobi was called Master Kenobi back then , not General Kenobi. they were leading the War because , yes , they had strategic capabilities. but to deny it was not for their Physical capabilities. well don't know about that. during each segment of Order66, what were the Jedi doing?. everyone of them was leading Troops in battle.

    The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." -Yoda AOTC.
    They are losing their ability to use the Force because of the growing dark side, it is clouding what they can see. No matter, in ROTS they sense that the dark side surrounds the Chancellor. That alone is enough grounds to investigate only, which they do to protect the Republic. They have nothing to arrest Palpatine or to bring their suspcions to the Senate. They need the solid evidence to act, this is why they get Anakin to spy on him to find that evidence to remove Palpatine. I have never said that the spying was a good idea, however Anakin is the one who gets the information required to act on their suspicions. By his actions as an informant to the Jedi he gives them the evidence they need. That's the only thing that worked with the spying. Anakin even told Palpatine he was to spy on him because the Jedi don't trust him, so he really can't be an actual spy(working in secret) but still can act as an informant to the Jedi giving him the info they needed to remove Palpatine so in fact it did work.


    but i convincingly pointed out that the Spying never got one single answer.

    By Anakin's actions as an informant to the Jedi they found the evidence they needed to act upon. Putting Anakin with Palpatine to spy and give information to the Jedi worked, they got the solid evidence they needed. The one who failed, in the end, was the Jedi. Mace was going to murder an unarmed Palpatine and Anakin cut off Mace's hand saving Palpatine and the Sith. Through these actions, Palpatine was able to exterminate the Jedi. The Jedi got the answer they were looking for because of Anakin being an informant to the Jedi, therefore they were able to do the right thing and go to arrest Palpatine, however because of Palpatine's promise to help save Padme and Anakin's selfishness the Jedi failed.

    it never found anything. Palpatine gave it all willingly and without coaxing. Like i said it was right after the Spying debate with Anakin ,that Anakin found out. and i remember that he told Mace as soon as he found out. so they did not gave to send him to Spy. Anakin would still have brought the information. Anakin just sat there and listened. and all Spying really achieved was driving Anakin away from the Jedi. just as Sideous wanted. the Jedi fell for it all.
  9. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I just need to put in my two cents about the Jedi being spies.
    First off, it's clear by the way Anakin reacts and Obi-Wan presents the situation that spying is not in line with the Jedi Order. It's not the way they do thing. They are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. In other words, they don't adhere to the militaristic thinking that's being purported here. Sure, they fight in the Clone War, but that's the WRONG THING TO DO! They are tricked into a war they can't win. And yet they do it, blind to the reasons behind it. Of course they have no choice, but that still doesn't make it the right thing. Sidious set up the whole thing meticulously so that the Jedi pretty much HAD to do the wrong thing a lot of the time. Even when they knew it, such as Yoda at the end of AOTC "The shroud of the dark side has fallen." And, yes, because they break their traditional and proper position as keepers of peace, they start to do deceitful things, like have it's most unstable member spy on his mentor and the leader of the galaxy. They should have thought of another plan. But they couldn't, because again they've played right into Palpatine's hands. He appoints Anakin to the council, a good thing from Anakin's point of view, then the Jedi, to return the favor don't make him a master and flat out tell them he's only on there because they need to use him for a spy mission.
  10. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    The spy issue contributed very little to Anakin's fall. Seriously guys. Anakin was just a peeved when he discovered the truth and willingly told the Jedi.

    Palpatine's leverage to turn Anakin was Padme.

    This whole political coup thread was, as I argued fromt he beginning, only Anakin's justification after the fact.

    He never believed it going into his rampage - he always knew Sidious betrayed him and everyone. Anakin was deceived, yes; but he also willingly gave his soul over to the devil.

    So, yes. Anakin was insulted and fristrated until he discovered the "terrible truth" - then his motives to turn against the Jedi shifted from a lyalty issue to simply and issue of greed.

    Every time someone suggests the Jedi had an alternative, they either have to back-track all the way to TPM or AOTC to find a crossroads, or they simply pretend one is there though George was too clever to leave a another option open.

    Ultimately, people have glossed over the political issues and what is transpiring in the Senate and behind the scenes with the fledgling Alliance which points to another impasse the Jedi were facing. Those who they were trying to protect put their security in the hands of the wrong guy, and those who realized it in the Senate were forced into covert maneuvers - the Loyalists and the Jedi. Unfortunately, neither party could trust the other because of the blanket of suspicion over every aspect of the political infrastructure.

    The Jedi couldn't trust Palpatine.
    Palpatine couldn't trust Padme.
    The Loyalists couldn't trust Palpatine.
    The Jedi couldn't trust the Senate.
    The Loyalists couldn't trust the Jedi.
    Anakin couldn't trust the Council.
    The Council couldn't trust Anakin.
    Obi-Wan couldn't trust Padme.
    Anakin couldn't trust Palpatine.
    Anakin couldn't trust Obi-Wan and Padme.

    Too much corruption and good people are caught in the middle trying to save a process that had been destroyed from within.

    So to hell with the code and the law, because they no longer function in harmony. The higher law, that of the Force, demanded balance - which means the removal of the sith from existence.

    Despite all the confusion and mistrust, there was a moment of clarity for everyone, and an opportunity to end all the darkness. It didn't happen. One man unwittingly thrust the entire galaxy to hell along with himself.

  11. MasterKenobi777 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2005
    star 2
    "Yeah and there was no war when that was said. there is now and Kenobi was called Master Kenobi back then , not General Kenobi. they were leading the War because , yes , they had strategic capabilities. but to deny it was not for their Physical capabilities. well don't know about that. during each segment of Order66, what were the Jedi doing?. everyone of them was leading Troops in battle."

    They are leading the clones into battle and are generals but the Jedi and the Order are not part of the military is what I am saying. They are a peace keeping group that serve the Senate and the Republic, they are not soldiers.

    "but i convincingly pointed out that the Spying never got one single answer."

    And I pointed out that because the Jedi put Anakin with Palpatine they found the information they needed to move in on the Chancellor. Anakin did his job, report to the Jedi on Palpatine. He successfully did his job. Anakin was there with Palpatine only because Windu sent him to tell Palpatine that Obi-Wan engaged GG so that they could get a clue on Palpatine's intentions when he learns of this.

    "it never found anything. Palpatine gave it all willingly and without coaxing. Like i said it was right after the Spying debate with Anakin ,that Anakin found out. and i remember that he told Mace as soon as he found out. so they did not gave to send him to Spy. Anakin would still have brought the information. Anakin just sat there and listened. and all Spying really achieved was driving Anakin away from the Jedi. just as Sideous wanted. the Jedi fell for it all."

    It got everything the Jedi wanted, the conclusive evidence they needed to remove Palpatine. This was all through Anakin's actions and Mace Windu sending him to report to Palpatine about Obi-Wan and GG to find out Palpatine's intentions, it worked. Even with this information, the Jedi failed. Windu had Palpatine down and was planning to kill him and Anakin saved Palpatine because he didn't want to lose Palpatine. Because of this betrayal, the Jedi Order was almost completely destroyed. Anakin failed to fulfill his duty as the Chosen One and Windu was the one trying to deny him of his destiny by not taking Anakin with him to confront Palpatine.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The spying did produce results. Anakin learned who Palpatine was and told Mace Windu. Regardless of how Anakin found out, he still found out and reported it to Mace Windu ASAP. Mace was in the dark until then and now had his proof from Anakin. The boy is at fault for not telling him how he found out. Had he, Mace might have erred on the side of caution.

    And again, no matter who he was asked to spy on, Anakin should not have let his personal feelings get in the way. If Obi-wan were asked to spy on Dexter, then he would regardless of their friendship. Anakin did not listen to Obi-wan when he told him to stop and think. To rely on the Force for guidence. This is where Anakin fails the most. He does not listen to the Force, instead he listens to his emotions and pays a terrible price.
  13. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know about that....because in the book when Anakin asked Obi-Wan if he would spy on Obi-Wan he doesn't say anything...he just falls silent.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    True, against Anakin. But then, as the book points out, Obi-wan became attached to Anakin.
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Obi-wan became attached to Anakin.

    the mighty fall. how embarrasing, how embarrassing.
  16. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    Keep in mind, please, that Anakin betrays the Jedi even after he learns that THEIR EVERY CONCERN HAS BEEN VALIDATED, and that HE HAS BEEN WRONG ABOUT PALPATINE ALL ALONG.

    I think you have to keep that in mind. Even if one argues that Anakin was right to feel some disquiet over being asked to keep an eye on the Chancellor (BTW, what did the Chancellor want Anakin to do re the Jedi Council, hmmm? Keep an eye on them...or spy on them... just in an official capacity!)....how does Anakin react once he discovers that the Jedi are RIGHT not to trust Palpatine..that he IS a Sith lord? That HE is the one whose view of things has been wrong all along? True, he reveals this to Mace (right thing)....but he then disobeys orders, goes to the Chancellor's quarters, and promptly betrays Mace and the Jedi for purely selfish reasons.

    In other words...yes, one can make a case that in asking Anakin to keep an eye on the Chancellor, they give him a tough task, one that is trying for him, disturbing, etc. BUT...they are RIGHT, and when that is demonstrated, it takes Anakin next to no time to put that aside and betray all of them because it suits HIS purposes. He learns nothing...or, rather, when his rationalizations about honor and the Jedi code are cast aside, he stands revealed as a young man driven purely by HIS needs, HIS desires...it is all about HIM.

    Shadow
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    but your validation comes AFTERWARDS. in other words, it's irrelevant.

    and i'm sure it doesn't really matter what anakin feels after he finds palps is a sith. palps is the only one offering him help of any kind. that's what counts.
    he's messed up enough as it is, and palps has been kind with him all those years, so maybe jedi propaganda was wrong.
  18. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "so maybe jedi propaganda was wrong."

    lol Palps didn't just fool poor Ani I see ;)
  19. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine: "You want to kill me, don't you?"
    Anakin: "I would certainly like to!"

    Forget the "kindness" and "friendship" between them, that's all out of the window - Anakin and Palpatine both know that. It's not Palpatine's kindness or presence Anakin wants, it's his ability to save people from dying. Nothing more. The Jedi are his family, and Palpatine is now his enemy - the only reason he goes against them is because of his selfishness and greed, in other words; Padme.

    Anakin: "Just help me save Padme - I can't live without her"

    He's crying for a reason when he runs out of the Jedi Temple, he's crying for a reason when Mace has been thrown on top of Dexters Diner.

    - O_F
  20. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    The spying did produce results. Anakin learned who Palpatine was and told Mace Windu. Regardless of how Anakin found out, he still found out and reported it to Mace Windu ASAP. Mace was in the dark until then and now had his proof from Anakin. The boy is at fault for not telling him how he found out. Had he, Mace might have erred on the side of caution.


    So regardless how Anakin found out , he still spied?. The SPYING NEVER HAPPENED .watch the movie again. Anakin never even got a chance to. he went to The Chancellors office , stood there and Palpatine told him everything. he was already in the process of telling him in the last meeting as well.so how can you call that Spying?. The Jedi screwed up here because if they were patient as i said they would have found out anyway, and Anakin would have still reported it. the jedi did'nt have enough faith and trust in Anakin's being willing to report this info to the Jedi, so they make it a Spying request instead . all the request to spy accomplished is making it easier to Make Anakin think that the Jedi are up to something dishonest and play more into Palps trap. but you guys wanna cling to the desperate idea they had no other option. well they did. they could have had faith that the Force, and faith that the Chosen one would do his Job. they did'nt , but Anakin did report it nonetheless. but not by Prying and investigating. by listening. and the reason the Jedi were in the Dark, and have been all along is a shortcoming in them. they already admitted their Power is diminished, and Blinded they were to Who the Sith was. but we are supposed to accept that regardless of these flaws, and handicaps, that the Jedi are still all wise and are making all the right moves?. well how can you?. they played right into the trap. it's obvious. Palpatine managed to Turn Anakin against them and label the Jedi traitors, and justify wiping them out. all a chainreaction to Spying. cause the Spying is the Moment Anakin and the Council came to the point that they no longer trust each other. all because of a Childish outburst? , too add to it. how wise of the Masters indeed. Spying accomplished absolutely nothing positive for the Jedi, and 100% of what palps wanted. And we are supposed to believe it was a good idea, and it actually accomplished anything?. aSpy has to investigate and snoop around. Anakin did'nt. he listened. something he rarely ever got credit for.
  21. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    lol Poor Ani, so misused by everyone. Oy ;)

    "they could have had faith that the Force, and faith that the Chosen one would do his Job"

    They couldn't sit on their hands and have faith in the force b/c
    they knew their ability to see the truth was diminished by the
    presence of the darkside. The Chosen one readily accepted the
    placement by Palps b/c he wanted it, just as Obi-Wan said
    and the council knew it. They knew Palps had a motive.
    Ani's outburst didn't help b/c it only confirmed Ani was impatient,
    expected too much too soon and was ready to be elevated to Master
    status as a result of Palps interference.
    They did put faith in Ani that he would help weed out Palps secrets
    and put an end to the Sith. He told the secret, probably b/c he's
    so used to trying to seem like the big Jedi hero, but he didn't
    put an end to the Sith b/c he had a selfish agenda.

    If the Jedi were wrong and diminished then Ani must be a ttl
    dumb-*** b/c no one was fooled more by Palps than him.
  22. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Fatih without works is dead. ;)

    The Jedi knew what had to be done. They could not sit idly by and wait around for the Force to do something. The Force was telling them where the dark side nexus was... the Chancellor.
  23. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    it's so simple really...

    yes, anakin was insulted...
    should he've been?
    of course not. he had no reason to be insulted.

    it's not the council's job to kneel before anakin's ego.
  24. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    They couldn't sit on their hands and have faith in the force b/c
    they knew their ability to see the truth was diminished by the
    presence of the darkside.


    Sure they could .Anakin was TOLD the information by Palpatine hours Later. either it's incredible Irony, or they were impatient.

    The Chosen one readily accepted the
    placement by Palps b/c he wanted it, just as Obi-Wan said
    and the council knew it. They knew Palps had a motive.
    Ani's outburst didn't help b/c it only confirmed Ani was impatient,
    expected too much too soon and was ready to be elevated to Master
    status as a result of Palps interference.


    Sure he did, so. The Jedi Accepted too. the Difference is Anakin was under the Impression it was because SOMEONE saw him worthy, naive perhaps, but far from evil. and the Jedi accepted based on absolutely none of Anakin's merit. " the ONLY reason you are on this council..." only because he was close to Palpatine. it's not hard to see that a Childish outburst, is not as bad as telling a Colleague that they have no other redeaming Quality to be on the Council except to Spy?. please.

    They did put faith in Ani that he would help weed out Palps secrets
    and put an end to the Sith. He told the secret, probably b/c he's
    so used to trying to seem like the big Jedi hero, but he didn't
    put an end to the Sith b/c he had a selfish agenda.

    If the Jedi were wrong and diminished then Ani must be a ttl
    dumb-*** b/c no one was fooled more by Palps than him.


    they may have had faith , as you say. but all they did was drive a wedge between them and Anakin by accepting and then denying Anakin what he was not wrong to think would also come withn the chair. he still would have told them everything, even if the Spying never came up. so how can you still justify it was a good idea?. good idea to turn someone against you by teaching one thing , and then asking another. Either they are all wrong or all right. it's wrong When Anakin bends the rules, but not the Council?. that my friends is called Hypocrisy
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    But he let go of his attachment to Anakin, something Anakin couldn't do with Padme.

    Anakin was sent to Palpatine's office with the intent of seeing what he does with the information that's given to him. Well, he's still listening when Palpatine tells him that he's a Sith Lord. Anakin only turned out of greed. He justified his greediness as the fact that the Jedi were traitors, when deep in his heart he knows that the weren't traitors and Palpatine is the traitor.

    Anakin's still at fault here, which Lucas points out to us, because he doesn't stop to think. He's letting his greed take over. He's not thinking that Palpatine is using him. He's not thinking that there will be restrictions imposed by the Council. In other words, he doesn't think period.
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