The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    what anakin is referring to here as i see it is betraying a friend...
    it's about comeradeship and trust.

    it's probably a very general code of ethics.
    i'm sure obi wan feels that anakin has a point.
    but at the same time, anakin doesn't see the greater picture as obi wan does.

    but what obi is interested in is showing support because he knows how difficult this is for anakin.
    a lecture on the exceptions and special circumstances isn't what anakin need right now.

  2. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Not the time to argue. Obi was being fatherly and smoothing
    Ani's ruffled feathers.


    Obi Wan was trying to convince Anakin to help the council. Surely he would have piped up to defend the jedi had anakin been wrong about going against the code? After all, wouldnt that have made more sense then letting Anakin think he was doing something wrong?
  3. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    See what jvberggren said :)
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Its specific to the jedi code. ;)

    They are asking Anakin to go against it in the name of the jedi order. If it wasnt against the code kenobi would have said otherwise.
  5. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i keep thinking about dooku.
    i think the jedi learned a lesson there.

    the jedi were somewhat reluctant in implicating a former comerade...
    it may be a little of the same code shining through here.

    what they obviously should've done is to investigate dooku's activities sooner.
    they were a little too naive.

    they couldn't really afford to make the same mistake twice.
  6. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Obi-Wan explained to Anakin that because they were at war, there was justified cause for investigating corruption and sith influence in the office of the Chancellor.
  7. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Noble effort Shaitan. but certain "People" will neither accept the Jedi did anything wrong, nor broke the Code , or anything for that matter. It's all justified because they know the the story and and what all the characters are doing.the Jedi are the Good guys and the Sith are bad. can't you see how Black and white the PT is? [face_laugh] . lol, it's not so Grey as the OT where, it's harder to see the bad guys etc... some people will make excuses till the end of time. this Hrdline anti Anakin stance is very uncompassionate. and cold. certain people think that every single motive or move Anakin does is Greed and self motivated. simply false. it's just as wrong to be completely against Anakin and all for the Council , as it is to think Anakin is totally a Victim. both Anakin and the Jedi Are victims. and both are victims of their own oride and arrogance. Anakin is the Walking personification of the Jedi weakness, and flaws.
  8. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think i've ever seen anybody say the Jedi never did anything wrong, where are you getting that from?

    - O_F
  9. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    what do you mean?. i've been in this thread from the beginning. and all i hear is excuses for the Jedi time and again. maybe i should have worded it differently, but there is a Overwhelming movement that continually justifies the Jedi's actions , and always finds a way to bring it back to Anakin. and i'm saying it's not that simple. but you cannot tell me that I am imagining things here Obi_Frans, i've put my time into this thread, and that is what i'm always up against. look at the post above my last . perfect example. " It's justified' end of story?. wrong.it's just not so black and white as that. they were wrong to take this obvious bait, and wrong to let things deteriorate with Anakin to the degree that they did. and then send him off confused. but as you will see, it will always be Anakin's fault. i stand by the beliefe that because people know who Vader is and because they have foresight of the Story , they can not be objective and Compassionate with Anakin at all. for example " Anakin's attachments" , yeah he was a little boy who made a choice to be a Jedi, and he seems to be failing. so others will say Too bad. he chose it. so he is a Failure. etc... how is this fair?. cause all 7 year old kids know what they really want out of life. and Anakin is guilty for being human. and the Jedi are totally excused for not being Human enough. understand.?

    D-
  10. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    only because obi wan says so that doesnt mean he is right to ask him that.the war reason he makes is an excuse because their war was vs the separatist,not vs palpatine(because we know palaptine is evil that doesnt mean the jedi knew too)
  11. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
  12. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    but if anakin had just done what yoda said, he would have been fine. train yourself to let let go of all you fear to lose, its stern, good advice. anakin refused to at first, but in the end he did learn yoda's lesson (RotJ). yoda just had to wait.

    from my POV, it is the jedi who suffered under anakin, while anakin was violently sorting things out. he should have waited in the temple, like mace windu said. anakin should have sorted out his feelings in calm meditation.

    so what if the jedi order isnt perfect - you sort it out, the order is willing to listen - to hav a dialogue. sidious is not willing to listen, he will not debate his feelings, nor will anakin - thats what got him into trouble. maybe the council would have accepted padme, who knows. but to turn on the order is not the jedi way. everyone on some level is hypocritical, you can use that against them, but its usually at the expense of looking at things at the whole. the jedi were willing to change, to debate, im sure anakin would see it that way in the end.

    so the jedi order isnt perfect, but sidious is using that to get what he wants. the jedi are not doing the same thing, thats just what sidious wants us to think.
  13. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    from my POV, it is the jedi who suffered under anakin

    wow. he really made them suffer, didn't he?

    sinister
    He has let go of the man who he once considered his brother and friend. He has accepted that he cannot turn him back from the Dark Side, nor will he make the effort on his own. He made up his mind when he says "Then you are lost."

    that is a very interesting spin on your detachment theory.
    so, mercilessly leaving him to burn and averting his gaze means he's so detached he cannot bear to look at his detachment?

    according to the high art of not giving a toss perfected by the jedi, kenobi should not have gone against his own code of honours and left anakin for dead. that's the plain truth of it.
    had he killed him, he would have been detached. he cannot, he says so. and he doesn't.
    he's attached to this guy, for better or worse and he says so, 'i loved you' he cannot believe what has happened, more likely.
  14. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    darth_frared
    had he killed him, he would have been detached. he cannot, he says so. and he doesn't.


    so is obi-wan a sith, or is trying to do the right thing? would the jedi order banish obi-wan for what he did? they wouldnt even punish obi-wan, lets face it.
  15. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    I'll tell you what I said in another thread. The Jedi and Sith have declared open war on each other. So the Jedi are fully justified in engaging the Sith whenever that threat becomes apparent. But during that engagement they cannot compromise their principles. That?s why Obi-wan walked away from burning Vader. The code doesn?t say, ?Never kill an unarmed opponent, oh unless he?s on fire and the world has fallen apart and maybe that?s the best thing to do.? It says: Don?t do it. No exceptions. Because when we start making exceptions things get very, very gray.



    />/>
  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    It says: Don?t do it. No exceptions. Because when we start making exceptions things get very, very gray.

    Exactly - so why is asking Anakin to spy the right thing to do?

    My feeling is that its better to lose and do the right thing than to win and do the wrong thing.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    At first, Obi-wan wants to look away. Then he looks back. He has accepted that Anakin's dead to him. All that he's talking to is a burnt piece of toast.

    Obi-wan doesn't go in for the kill, because he cannot break his code or the Jedi Code, that says he must not kill a helpless person. Someone who is incapable of putting up a fight. It's catch 22. So he compromises by leaving Vader to burn. It gets the job done and he doesn't have to kill an unarmed man.
  18. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    near the end of RotS, doesnt mace windu say that there is a shadow of darkside eminating from the chancellor?

    isnt that same logic used when yoda attacks the clones?

    sounds good enough for me. the real question, is can anakin handle it, does he have the vision and togetherness to do what yoda did, or was yoda wrong in what he did?
  19. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    Exactly - so why is asking Anakin to spy the right thing to do?
    I'd have to know if the code says: never spy even on a suspected Sith. If it does - then they were wrong - no question about it. And Anakin should have turned the assignment down flat.

    I always took Obi-wan's - "Use your feelings Anakin, something is out of place," to mean, we're close to the trail of the Sith here, which is the primary job of every Jedi. (Not that stupid kriffin war.) If I'm being over-generous to Kenobi there then so be it. But if he's actually clearly breaking the code then he's wrong, dead wrong, and should have resigned from the Council before he did it.

    />/>
  20. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    i dont know, the jedi hav misled people in the past, by not clarifying things, to gain an advantage. in some cases, they dont show all their cards, is that wrong.

    spying on a chancellor seems wrong, that is treason, especially if you want to secure the senate afterwards. spying on a sith seems okay. "follow the trail of clues that will lead us to the sith" isnt something like that from AotC. i think youre allowed to trick a sith as a jedi.
  21. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "near the end of RotS, doesnt mace windu say that there is a shadow of darkside eminating from the chancellor?"

    Yes. At some pt middle or near the end Mace does say he
    can sense the darkside surrounding the Chancellor.
    I can't remember the exact wording, but the suspicion was
    there which IMO justifies trying to gain counter-intelligence
    against someone who may be influenced by or connected to the Sith.
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    so is obi-wan a sith, or is trying to do the right thing? would the jedi order banish obi-wan for what he did? they wouldnt even punish obi-wan, lets face it.

    why is somebody who goes against the code automatically a sith?

    what is there to face? he left anakin to die there and acted right against his own personal code of honour. why always deal in punishment?
    just because i don't see it as right, and obi-wan neither, doesn't mean we have to crucify him.
  23. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    his own personal code of honour?
    Which is?
  24. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    darth_frared
    why is somebody who goes against the code automatically a sith?


    well, youre right. but, to me, obi-wan has always been the most connected / most balanced to the lightside of the force, even more than yoda. thats why dooku cant even tempt obi-wan, not in the least. i sort of think of obi-wan as weaker in ability but strongest in balance, its what keeps him alive.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Like I said, Obi-wan was in a catch-22 situation. The Code specifies that a Jedi cannot kill a helpless person. An unarmed man. Anakin is helpless. He has one limb and catches fire. A fire that will kill him in time. On the other hand, he must destroy the Sith. So he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. He makes a decision because he swore long ago to never kill a helpless individual. But because of the fire, which will kill Anakin, he opts to leave Anakin to the fire. The fire will finish it and Obi-wan doesn't have to disobey orders or go against the Code and his beliefs.

    Batman: "I'm not going to kill you. But that doesn't mean I have to save you."

    ^^^^^This is very fitting of that moment.
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