The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

i agree i won't say all the jedi.. i will only say the jedi on the council Since their views dun reflect the views of the others and such. Inuslt him the council did, but im sure anakin must of realized he didn't deserve it as well.

 

I see what you mean Duggy, but when Obi-wan said "This assignment is not meant to be on the record", I'm wondering if that meant Palps was capable of looking in on or back on the Jedi's Council meetings and records, and this statement was kind of meant as a "Butt out" for the Chancellor. It could have been handled better though. It's not what they said, it's how they said it. They could have had Mace and Yoda meet with him in private as well, instead of just Obi-wan and explain their concerns. But by all accounts, if you are a Jedi, you do what you are told. Just about everyone that we see in training, from Obi-wan to Luke, gets reprimanded for even asking something as little as "why".

Yoda and Luke on Dagobah...

Luke "Is the darkside stronger"
Yoda "No, quicker, easier..."
Luke "But tell me why-"
Yoda "NO NO, THERE IS NO WHY", exhales impatiently. "No more will I teach you today".


The problem was Anakin wasn't going to just follow blindly. He had an attachment to the Chancellor. Rather than viewing it as his job, he wigged out emotionally.

 

Quite astute. I agree completely, the Jedi don't understand that Anakin is a "special needs" student. Yoda certainly doesn't. He tells him how to feel. That doesn't work with troubled friends.

 

rhonderoo
If desperate times called for desperate measures, why not step out of their box and make him a master, and show him they trust him...he is easy to manipulate that way, always has been.

i gotta admit, the council looked bad asking anakin to spy on palpatine and, at the same time, they dont trust him enuff to become a council member. a little ominous, but yoda and mace windu talked about it later with obi-wan.

EDIT: thechozn1
Yoda and Luke on Dagobah...

Luke "Is the darkside stronger"
Yoda "No, quicker, easier..."
Luke "But tell me why-"
Yoda "NO NO, THERE IS NO WHY", exhales impatiently. "No more will I teach you today".

i could just see yoda, "okay, heres your 1st lesson in the darkside, firing off electricity. you can decide if you think its bad or not." what did luke expect yoda to say? curiousity killed that cat as they say.

 

it seems like a proper communication problem to me, of colossal proportions.

anakin cannot articulate why he feels rejected and they don't know why he isn't more responsive to their teaching.
and their lectures won't get them anywhere, his outbursts won't get him anywhere.

i completely agree he should not have been a master, but they ought to have explained why. and they fail in this respect (as has been discussed here). it's more about communication than anything else.

 

having a feeling about the Chancellor is not a good enough reason to Betray his office, or the Law.
in star wars a feeling is a little more than just a feeling.

btw, this illegality issue is highly irrelevant.
isn't it illegal to act against the empire in the OT as well?

morally they're doing the right thing in both the PT and the OT.

and as far as anakin being insulted...
anakin isn't a teamplayer.
he thinks this is all about him.
that's why he's insulted.

any other jedi would probably trust the wisdom of the council and the need to figure this out.
in the end, they're not doing this for themselves, but the republic.
anakin, of course, fails to see that.

 

You're being way too black and white about a VERY gray aspect of the movie, though. Anakin isn't just any Jedi. This is the Council's number one problem. They aren't learning and growing and changing with the circumstances...

 

then please explain why it's morally right to act against the empire in the OT and why it's not morally right to do so in the PT?

i would very much like to know...

Anakin isn't just any Jedi.
that's very true, but not because he's the chosen one.
it's because anakin made it that way -the jedi didn't do that.
if a person doesn't want to genuinly contribute and be a part of something, then it's difficult to change that.

 

I'm beginning to sense a very troubling trend on these boards.

It's known as the "Anakin can do what he wants and have what he wants because he isn't like any other Jedi..." excuse.

And why isn't he like any other Jedi?
Because he does want he wants and takes what he wants.
It's 100% pure tautology.

Essentially, the Jedi must bend and adapt their ways for Anakin, such a lowly selfish and arrogant person, and a coniving deceiver and traitor to their cause - but that's OK because it's Anakin.

 

and to add...
anakin created those special needs.

 

actually to my knowledge the Jedi have not bent with Anakin at all. nobody has said Anakin is good, not troubled , or deserves to be a Master, at least i have not said that. the issue is the Insulting way the Jedi handle it. Anakin is a physcho , but he is a Jedi , and he is being requested a secret mission. does it deserve no explanation?. how can people say this. again people can't get past what Anakin will do. not what is happenning in that part of the story. which is Anakin being a Loyal hereo Jedi, and that is what the Jedi know. not that he killed Tuskens or whatever. that suff is not the issue. and it's not like Anakin was tye first Jedi to be at odds with the Council. * cough* Dooku,QuiGon *cough* lol

And Anakin accepting the mission to spy, does show his loyalty, and willingness to bend. I don't like Anakin. but he was wronged in this instance. period.

 

anakin created those special needs.

nope. a kid does not create special needs as such. we are all different. we all need adjustments made to our individuality. otherwise we come out as clones.

he creates special needs in the context that he is older than the other kids, didn't go through the initial training and that he was a slave. make amendments to that, take care he isn't left out, get to know him, not much more to it.

 

The Council knew that they were asking Anakin to betray a friend, but they were hoping that he would remain objective. Obviously he didn't have too much of a problem since he went ahead and did it anyway. He could've easily refused and quit. He didn't have to report Palpatine when he found out that the Jedi were right and he wasn't squeaky clean. In fact, he was ready to kill Palpatine until the Dark Lord used his trump card. And even trying to use the fact that the Jedi were traitors didn't provoke Anakin into acting. It was the fact that Padme could be saved that motivated him to act. Anakin tried to rationalize it by telling Mace it wasn't the Jedi way, but it wasn't working. So with a swing of his Lightsaber, he told him that he needed Palpatine to live.

 

but thats the thingthe council said he was to old and should NOT be trained at all in TPM. They did not approve of his training, and thus are weary of him. You make it sound like the jedi council chose him to join, when it was in fact the wishes of Qui-gon jin not the council. This is not a daycare and the jedi new that because of his age Anakin Should of not been trained. They warned Obi-wan and warned anakin that the life of a jedi is hard for a kid his age.

 

Anakin was only trained to begin with because the Sith were back, Obi-wan was going to do it without their consent and the boy's power was too dangerous to leave unattended. Otherwise, he had a snowball's chance in hell of getting into the Order.

 

Anakin did not create his own needs, life did. The Council may not have wanted him trained, but they approved it, otherwise, he wouldn't be there. Remember? He's a nine-year-old kid when he's brought there.

And if he's pshycho, it's because the Jedi made him that way. No one is excusing Anakin from the things he did - the suit remember? BUT, the more disturbing trend on this board is advocating the use of force to usurp a ruler without getting authority from the ruling government body that elected him AND thnking asking Anakin to underhandedly do something he thought morally wrong is okay, because they suspected something, and refused to bend in this instance. Obi-Wan saw it.

The Jedi are not saints in this folks, you gotta take off those rose-coloured glasses. We are meant to see how they could have avoided this also, by treating a different kid with at least a measure of respect. Obi-Wan was his master and gave them advice, they basically laughed in his face and went on in their very clouded vision, and paid for it.

And as Anakin said in Labyrinth of Evil, he could have been free by the time of the war and a respected podracer. I think looking back if he knew then what he knew during the war, he would have ran far, far away when the Jedi came his way. We are talking about a group of monastic, rigid, arrogant, unbending, clueless, let's face it...looney group of beings here. That's why Darth Vader (and the rest of the galaxy) loathed them, their unyeilding, arrogant, condescending view of others. They locked themselves away in an ivory tower and quit listening to even the Force...until the Force said it was clean up time.

 

Anakin was only trained to begin with because the Sith were back, Obi-wan was going to do it without their consent and the boy's power was too dangerous to leave unattended. Otherwise, he had a snowball's chance in hell of getting into the Order.


woulda ,coulda, shoulda . regardless this does not change the fact the Jedi accepted Anakin as a Padawan. they Accepted his appointment by Palpatine. and they treat him as inconvienience. which makes it easier to understand how they would insult Anakin, by not even giving him an Explanation as to why he is on the Council, but is not yet being made a Master. what is the problem the Council has with communication.


The Jedi are not saints in this folks, you gotta take off those rose-coloured glasses. We are meant to see how they could have avoided this also, by treating a different kid with at least a measure of respect. Obi-Wan was his master and gave them advice, they basically laughed in his face and went on in their very clouded vision, and paid for it

exactly , the Jedi are not just victims, they are even unwitting collaborators. they helped create Vader as well as Palpatine. again this does not excuse Anakin or anything he will do. which they also know nothing abou, only that different decisions by the Council eg: Mace's " Take a seat" with no explanation., could have had different results.

 

Duggy,

They did give Anakin a reason why he was on the council more or less, they said the only reason we accepted your appointment was because of how close he was with Palps. But because of the reason/treason of spying on Palps, Anakin's faith was lost in the order. BUt as for the fact that he wasn't a master you are very very correct my friend.

 

darth-sinister
The Council knew that they were asking Anakin to betray a friend, but they were hoping that he would remain objective . . . He could've easily refused and quit.

i guess in a way he did.

Ruthio
This is not a daycare and the jedi knew that because of his age Anakin Should of not been trained.

not training anakin would hav been a real big problem for me, how can you justify not training someone so naturally talented!? i guess it is the jedi way maybe, but its not my way. in the end though, anakin was the only one who could really reach sidious and challenge him. from my view, the order would hav been lost without anakin, so it did pay off (sidious would hav never faced-off against a jedi, except for turning anakin, if he was doing his job right).

 

Very true my friend. ObiWan also said "Your friendship with Palpatine seems to have paid off" which sounds a bit harsh. Anakin desired to be a Master,no secret. but he did not ask , and was clearly suprised when he was appointed.

 

Ah, but Anakin was alone with Palpatine when he heard the news. The Council was not there, so in Obi-wan's view, it looks like Palpatine took what Anakin wanted to heart. The boy saves his life, so how best to repay him? By giving him what he wants.

I would think that too, if I were in Obi-wan's position.

 

Yes, Anakin was "speechless" . i just don't think the guy is crazy or Physcho for thinking if he is going to be on the council, that he will be a Master. he does say "Me? , a Master" and whattaya know Palpatine let him think that as well. Anakin in this scenario, was being used by both sides . period.

 

Is this all about Anakin's nature or nurture. From my vantage point it seems that this event is the culmination of all the preceeding conflicts that Anakin has had with the Jedi order. The decision to not rank him master only provides further reinforcement in his belief that the Jedi have no faith in him. Basically, he is an outsider, and will always remain an outsider which is something that is not needed considering his upbringing which is far different from any Jedi. Their continual alienation of Anakin has led them to where they were at the present time. The were myopic which is antithetical to the Jedi way.

People look at certain situations and think only of that situation without realizing that the actions are a result of being nurtured. This was not by osmosis, and the jedi's inability to see how they played a part in this entire ordeal ultimately led to their demise. It was inevitable.

Now, this is not to say that Anakin is without blame. I am not one to go into the notions of free will and determinism even though I lean more towards a determist view than the view of choice. One reason is that the idea of choice negates all experiences and we are the sum of all our experiences which basically means that you can determine a behavior given past behavior. Anyways...

The point is that the only mindful person throughout the PT was Palpatine. He gave Anakin what he needed or what all prodigies need and that is nurturing. The Jedi were unable to offer an semblance of a familial relationship because they were ill equipped to do so, and the denial of the rank of master is one of many slights that the Jedi have given to Anakin. And the timing of this slight is pivotal.

Their desire to forgo procedure when deemed necessary only reinforces what Palpatine says about the Jedi. You have to remember that there are perhaps two people Anakin really trust throughout this and that is Padme and Palpatine. His relationship with OB1 is only one of familiarity. They have been together for 11 or so years and that can only breed some type of love, but it their relationship is filled with a lot of animosity on both sides.

Basically, the Jedi messed up. This was just one of their many mistakes throughout the PT. Like Sand Crawler said they should have stuck with their code. The last thing they needed was to give the Sith ammunition.

 

His failure was in not considering that there might be conditions, if the Council does agree to it.

 

So why didn't they tell him that?