The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    ooh excellent quote from Batman, very fitting.
    IMO that sums up what Obi-Wan did/thought on Mustafar nicely.
  2. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    i gotta say, i think its from the dvd commentary, but i could be wrong, doesnt it say that obi-wan held back when he could have easily killed anakin during that last reckless jump. obi-wan wanted the force to decide anakins fate, but i guess it all amounts to the same thing.
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    obi-wan has always been the most connected / most balanced to the lightside of the force, even more than yoda. thats why dooku cant even tempt obi-wan, not in the least. i sort of think of obi-wan as weaker in ability but strongest in balance, its what keeps him alive.

    this thread isn't really about this topic, so i'll let it go now, i guess.
    obi is no doubt a special person, just like anakin is. and everyone else for that matter. :oops:
  4. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    That's because most of the accusations thrown against them involve Anakin, and the saga revolves around him - not the Jedi. From what i've actually seen of Lucas, he's said the Jedi went wrong with the Republic - but when it comes to Anakin, the only Jedi he ever slighted, to say the least, is, ironically, Qui-Gon Jinn.

    With this entire thread being based on the Jedi Council insulting Anakin by not making him a Master, it shouldn't be that suprising, or complicated, at all to have people saying that it's actually Anakins fault - especially when Lucas has done the same.

    You're not imagining that people defend the Jedi, but you are imagining that people believe the Jedi are flawless.

    I think, as someone who has also payed attention and spent time on this thread, that it's wrong to say people cannot be objective or compassionate with Anakin. The posters defending the Jedi, not all of them, have all come up with their own valid reasons for doing so. If you want to point out the Jedi fanboys who driveby the thread with a "Ani Sucks, Jedi RULE!!" post - then at least be fair and also point out the Anakin fans that simply have it in for the Jedi, that don't seem to agree with where George took the story (mainly with "attachments" and whatnot) or have very blatantly fallen for Palpatine's lies.

    But you only took the posters defending the Jedi and blasted them, that's not objective at all.

    I don't think anybody's blaming a 9 year old kid for being attached to his mother, or for not knowing what lay ahead of him - but a lot of people ARE blaming a grown up adult Jedi Knight for being attached to his wife, and for taking the ABSURDLY wrong path that he does. He slaughters frikking younglings for crying out loud - yet there are still posts saying "the Jedi Order was arrogant...........so to hell with them". That's a lot more extreme then saying Anakin payed the price for his own decisions.

    I know from your posts that you simply focus a lot on the Jedi shortcomings because you feel a lot of people don't, so my problem wasn't with your stance, it was with the accusation - because from where i'm standing, the Jedi get a lot worse flack then Anakin. Maybe not more, at least not since the commentarys and whatnot came out, but worse.

    - O_F
  5. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    no,is not fair but to say that they were a hollier than glower bunch of cool perfect guys that didnt make mistakes and had 0% responsibility for anakin's turn is loudicrus.
  6. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    But isn't spying on your surrogate family just as wrong? When Anakin spies for Palpy doesn't that go against the Jedi Code? And how is what Palp asks less wrong because he has no morals? He may not have any qualms about it, but Anakin should; he's so blinded by the prospect of becoming a master he dosen't bother to think.
  7. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i know you love to raise this issue, so i in turn love to tell you:
    anakin was supposed to sit on the council with their knowledge and report on what they were up to.
  8. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    [Master_Shaitan]Spying on the chancellor, against a friend and a mentor is definitly against the code. I have no doubt of that.

    [AnnLouise]But isn't spying on your surrogate family just as wrong? When Anakin spies for Palpy doesn't that go against the Jedi Code? And how is what Palp asks less wrong because he has no morals? fight. the. Sith. Once they suspect the Sith is controlling Palps, uncovering that plot must be their primary focus and supersedes any rules against spying on friends. That's why Obi-wan says, "Use your feelings." This isn't just about a friend or the Chancellor anymore - this is about THE SITH.
    It's like medical triage - your mandate is to treat all patients but in situations where you cannot do that the most badly wounded take precedent.


    />/>
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's still spying. It's like the corporate stooge who works for the main boss and sits in on meetings. Anakin is Palpatine's stooge. He'll "squeel" to Palpatine no matter what. The problem is that Anakin's too prideful to see it for what it really is.
  10. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    This is where the hypocrisy is at its peak and I must sit back ammused.

    One the one hand the Jedi are criticized for adhereing to a rigid, inflexible code. It is pointed out their failure centers on the fact they would not adapt like the sith did.

    On the other hand, as soon as the Jedi adapt to the current situation and set aspects of the rigid code aside, aspects that are no longer in harmony with the real situation - preventing them from dealing with the crisis they are facing - then the Jedi are traitors and terrible for going against the code.

    The Jedi are in charge of their own code with respects to how it deals with policy and procedural matters and the Council ought to be able to agree where the code needs to be adapted so the Jedi can do what they must to ensure the Sith do not destroy the Republic.

    The Jedi think on their feet in response to the new type of sith and they get blasted for it.
  11. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    This is where the hypocrisy is at its peak and I must sit back ammused.
    me too.

    One the one hand the Jedi are criticized for adhereing to a rigid, inflexible code. It is pointed out their failure centers on the fact they would not adapt like the sith did.

    On the other hand, as soon as the Jedi adapt to the current situation and set aspects of the rigid code aside, aspects that are no longer in harmony with the real situation - preventing them from dealing with the crisis they are facing - then the Jedi are traitors and terrible for going against the code.

    i find this rather enjoyable to watch myself.

    The Jedi are in charge of their own code with respects to how it deals with policy and procedural matters and the Council ought to be able to agree where the code needs to be adapted so the Jedi can do what they must to ensure the Sith do not destroy the Republic.
    i think they learned from what happened with dooku.
    the jedi definately made a mistake there and was way too trusting and naive.

    they can't afford to have blind trust anymore.
    not with the sith in their midst.

    and what do they get when they loosen up their code and focus on the greater picture...
    a lot of criticism for not sticking with the code people say are flawed even to begin with.
    go figure!
  12. stajedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Ka-Adi-Mundi was not a mster when he got on the Jedi Council and he was not insulded when he was not made a master so oh and Anakin says that he is the first one to not be made a master when he got placed on the council witch means he never got told about Ka-Adi-Mundi that he was not made a master. He was not made a master until the 10 years between I and II.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's eu and will probably be retconned.
  14. darthrouen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    If all the other members are masters, it would seem belittling to not make him a master after putting him on the council. What bothered me though was the off-the-record request that Anakin spy on Palpatine. It is the beginning of the end when the "honorable Jedi" stoop to the level of spying and even worse, exploiting an admittedly vulnerable and unfortunately emotionally needy (for approval) young person from their midst. Because they were using him in a manipulative fashion, which is dishonorable, when they should have been protecting him.
  15. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    If it was the jedi's idea to have him on the council, not making him a master may have been an insult. As`it was, he was appointed to the council by the jedi somewhat grudgingly on Palpatine's order. That being the case, it would be presumptious of Anakin to expect to become a master.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin's there as Palpatine's personal representive, aka a spy to begin with. Since the Council makes it's own decisions, which Lucas says Anakin knows, he shouldn't be surprised that they would put a condition on his appointment. But he is greedy and egotistical.


    And it has to be off the record, cause you know, it'd be kinda pointless to have him spy and then report it to the intended.
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    ah, this has become a karmic exercise.

    a spy is doing the job in SECRECY. anakin is doing it OPENLY. everyone on the coulcil KNOWS he will report on their dealings. which is why palps isn't going against any law. he merely wants someone to report.
  18. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you're saying. The Council knew Anakin was the Chancellors rep.; but his role as a double agent for Palp goes beyond the usual reporting on "what they were up to". The point is still that Ani gets all bent out of shape when asked to spy on Palp, but has no problems with "reporting" on the Council. Palpy just used slicker language in his request and tossed in an implied promotion to Master.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Bingo. He played upon Anakin's greed, arrogance, ignorance and ego to get him to do what he wanted. Obi-wan, by decision of the Council, told him outright what they wanted him to do. That's why Obi-wan tells Anakin to stop and think.
  20. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    whatever. [face_tired] i'll let it go. palps was doing it openly and there is no difference to spying because palps is evil and by being a sith lord automatically all he does is computed through our sith lords are evil spex. actions and motivations are a unit, they cannot be considered separately and i'll prolly never go to heaven for thinking otherwise and - surprisingly, have my view supported by the movies.

    it doesn't matter anymore, does it? we have 60 pages of this back and forth now, how the virtuous jedi order never made a mistake and how anakin is evil, will be evil and always was evil to the bone in wanting to not be half-arsed about this assignment.

    i would really want them to be good jedi, you know, caring and compassionate and truly there for each other. as it is, i could bash them any day of the week. because they are righteous ****wits.
  21. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Well, it does matter, in that getting to air different views, and read the opposing ones, is interesting. I've never thought, or posted, that the Jedi never made a mistake. But however great their flaws, they do try to adhere to a moral code, even if they fail more often than they succeed. Anakin wasn't "evil" at this point in ROTS, but IMO he was very much farther down the road to that eventual end.
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