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The Jedi honour system in duels and practice

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Quinnocent-Till-Sith, Aug 19, 2005.

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  1. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2004
    I was wondering what the opinion was on how much honour there is in being a Jedi:

    TPM:
    -Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Vs. Maul - 2 on 1

    AOTC:
    -Mace Windu beheads Jango Fett.
    -(intended) Obi-Wan and Anakin Vs. Dooku - 2 on 1

    ROTS:
    -Obi-Wan and Anakin Vs. Dooku - 2 on 1
    -Obi-Wan shoots Grievous
    -Windu, Fisto, Tinn, Kolar Vs. Sidious - 4 on 1
    -Yoda beheads guards (I think).
    -Obi-Wan's 'high-ground' move.

    TESB/ROTJ:
    -Luke encouraged to kill Vader

    Even Sidious doesn't go around lopping off heads and will gladly watch rather than help his apprentices. Dooku disarms Anakin then pushes him away in AOTC and incapacitates Obi-Wan and clearly his final strike was going straight down in a clean finish.

    An 'elegant' lightsaber is often used as a blaster when reflecting bolts.

    It also leads to questions like how many Jedi survivors between III and IV team up to take Vader or Palpatine out. Surely a lightsider should win by what looks like lightside means?

     
  2. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Could you be kind enough to rephrase your question so I can try to give you a proper answer?
     
  3. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2004
    I'm suggesting Jedi aren't particularly honourable.

    Honour: # Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
    # A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.

    Obviously not the Europe bit.
     
  4. i_dont_know

    i_dont_know Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Why is this not honourable? Maul had gone there with the intention of fighting them both by the looks of it, and he had a cool double-sabre to deal with them.

    This one is interesting. It seemed pretty justified, but perhaps not honourable. Maybe this gives Boba justification to track Han Solo to Bespin :)

    - The Dooku duel was playing out just as Sidious and Dooku planned, the Jedi just did their job.
    - Obi-Wan shooting Grievous I agree is dishonourable, but again completely justified. I think this scene is actually intentionally set up to provoke questions such as yours, as it symbolises the end of the Republic - "So uncivilised."
    - The "4 on 1" was planned by the Jedi because it was an arrest, not a duel. It only becomes a fight when Palpitine resists. I don't think this is dishonourable; they've just found out their leader is their sworn enemy, and the fate of everyone depends on them removing him from office immediately. I doubt honour was a critical issue in the Jedi's minds at this stage.
    - Yoda beheads guards ---- who were about to shoot him in the back. Wow, Yoda sure lacks honour ;)
    - Obi-Wan's highground move; Could you please explain how this is dishonourable? Obi-Wan backflips out of their sabre lock because he wants to end the fight that could kill both of them. He warns Anakin not to continue, but he does, and Obi-Wan chops off his legs in self-defence. What, you expected Obi-Wan to just stand there and die honourably?

    Edit - I thought you were talking about Sidious when you said this.
    This is a good point, Luke was encouraged to kill Vader. But no where does it say a Jedi should never kill.
    Obi-Wan: "If you face Vader, you must do it alone. I cannot intervene."
    Luke: "I understand."
    Pretty honourable to me.


    Sidious's tendency to spectate is testament to his confidence in his apprentices, not his honour.

    Come on dude, you can't use that to demonstrate dishonour. This is how we learnt Jedi were above crude weapons like blasters in the first place!

    I don't recall any Jedi Master stating "teaming up with your fellow Jedi is a path to the darkside." Sith are stronger than the average Jedi, and usually take advantage of cheap fighting tactics, so I don't see the dishonour in fighting alongside another Jedi on occasion.
    You say teaming up isn't very lightside-ish, but I don't recall two Sith ever teaming up in a duel.

    Edit - spellin
     
  5. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    When you are fighting someone to the death, being honorable goes out the window. The other guy is fighting to win, and winning usually means that the loser is dead, or seriously screwed up. Being honorable is good when you are sparring a friend, but in a real fight, being honorable is a usually a liability.
     
  6. i_dont_know

    i_dont_know Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Although this is very true in some circumstances (whether referring to Star Wars or not ;) ), going by this theory means the end of ROTJ loses most of its meaning. This is probably Luke Skywalker's mindset in the ESB duel with Vader. By ROTJ he has reflecting on issues probably similar to the ones we are discussing, and is no longer fighting to the death.
     
  7. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    Not necessarily. In real life, I completely agree with you. But not in a fantasy tale. There are lots of tales where honour does not go out of the window.

    I agree with the notion that the prequels - in several aspects - have shed a different light on the Jedi than what at least I expected them to be, judging from the scarce information of the OT.
     
  8. i_dont_know

    i_dont_know Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 6, 2005
    rofl, we both answered similarly in the same minute
     
  9. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    I understand what you guys are saying, especially the ROTJ battle since neither opponent was trying to kill each other. When I wrote my statment I wasn't explicitly talking about SW. I was talking real life as well.

    Are you guys telepathic??
    lol.
     
  10. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    As a matter of fact, I'm a gal. [face_not_talking]

    Seriously, there's a number of issues where I find the Jedi to be portrayed questionably if not dubios during the PT. I know that in the "official" interviews Lucas talks about the Jedi solely as "the good guys". But for me, there are too many things that are, say, strange, or questionable, at least. I find it difficult to believe that this is all unintended, given how picky he is on other things.

    I stick to my interpretation that Lucas is keeping things "simple and stupid" for the mass audiences and that he's well aware that things aren't that simple. There's too much hints that the Jedi order is flawed in the Old Republic times during the prequels to be coincidental. The heroic ideals vs. the actual action when it comes to fighting situation is but one example. An order based on real honour and loyalty doesn't act that way.

    The order was flawed, and in a phase of decay, as was the Republic itself. Thus, it had to transform, or be destroyed. Anakin was the catalyst for it.
     
  11. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 31, 2000
    Sorry about calling you a guy. I use the term loosely.
     
  12. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    I was joking - hope you've been aware of that ;)
     
  13. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2004
    They aren't honorable. They are members of a monastic order of warrior monks who keep the peace and enforce the law. They aren't romantic knights in some poem about chivalry and honor. In fact, it's probably frowned upon. Honor and pride go hand in hand, and pride/the ego are closer to the Dark Side than what the Jedi stand for.
     
  14. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Yeah, I realized that.
     
  15. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    good - everything is going as planned [face_mischief]

    and what's your POV, on the honourablity of the Jedi, be it RL or myth?
     
  16. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    For an order of beings that were the sole peacekeepers of the republic, until the clone wars broke out, they seem to be as honorable as they can be. I haven't seen anything in the films that would make me think that were being excessive their actions and methods.

    As far as them being in contests to the death, my earlier statement stands.
     
  17. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 21, 2004
    The same "civilised-age" Jedi who said that was the one who shot Grievous with a blaster. :p
     
  18. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2003
    ANH - Obi Wan cuts of the arm of a lowly troubler when he could've just as easily disarmed and/or subdued him
    RotJ - Luke forcechokes a guard for doing his job

    This isn't just a prequel problem; nor is it an indication that "something was wrong" with the Jedi Order. As another poster said, they aren't romantic guards who'll throw roses around at ladies while they chivalrously go about their jobs; they were never supposed to be. They're guards of peace and justice, and sometimes - things get ugly.

    The Jedi way is to always, at least, try to be the bigger man and look for a solution. That's honourable in itself. The only Jedi who actively breaks this rule are Anakin and Luke.

    - O_F
     
  19. emporergerner

    emporergerner Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 6, 2005
    When does Luke force chike a guard in ROTJ I don't recall seeing that.
     
  20. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    I don't see how Obi-Wan's or Luke's actions were dishonorable. Obi-Wan had to cut off the alien's arm in order to prevent him from shooting; it might not have been possible to simply knock the weapon out of his hand in time and make sure he doesn't pick it up. Luke used a forcechoke to get past guards who had weapons pointed at him. Even Yoda knocked out the Emperor's guards when he walked in. I don't think Jedi are honorable in the sense that they try to make the fight even with their opponents. Jedi will try any justified means to subdue an enemy in self defense. However, the Jedi are honorable in the sense that they only fight when absolutely necessary to defend themselves or others and they don't kill unarmed prisoners.

    The Jedi way is to always, at least, try to be the bigger man and look for a solution. That's honourable in itself. The only Jedi who actively breaks this rule are Anakin and Luke.

    In what way did they break this rule? Are you referring to instances where Anakin or Luke gave into anger instead of upholding Jedi principles?
     
  21. i_dont_know

    i_dont_know Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 6, 2005
    I adressed that in my post. After he shoots Grievous he says "so uncivilised", so I totally agree with you. It was intentionally done by the movie makers to symbolise the end of the Republic; remember, this scene happens directly before Mace goes to arrest Palpitine.

    The movie-makers are kind of showing how the Empire was brought on not just by Sidious, but as a product of circumstance, where everyone had to contribute in some way.
     
  22. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2003
    Yes, Anakin broke it when he beheaded Dooku. And Luke when he choked the guards. Granted, Anakins case is much more severe than Lukes.

    When he walks into Jabba's palace, he forcechokes the gamorrean guards that approach him.

    - O_F
     
  23. TanSei

    TanSei Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2005
    Luke force choking the guard was more good than bad. As I remember the guard didn't die of it where as if Luke hadn't choked the guard, Luke might have had to kill the guard if the guard had attacked him.
     
  24. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 21, 2004
    You don't get the chance do see do you?
     
  25. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2004

    TPM:
    -Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Vs. Maul - 2 on 1


    Well Obi Wan is still just a padawan,it would be best for him to lead Padme and the guards, Then Qui Gon would be left alone to deal with Maul. Obviously,Obi Wan was needed there,seeing as both of them against maul and Qui Gon still ends up dead,and its not like Obi Wan could've taken him alone.



    AOTC:
    -Mace Windu beheads Jango Fett.


    Its a huge battle,he wouldn't have time to negotiate or trap Jango while Jango is shooting at him. It was self defense,and it was a mercyful way to kill a bounty hunter.


    -(intended) Obi-Wan and Anakin Vs. Dooku - 2 on 1


    Well they know how powerful Count Dooku is,he's was a jedi master for a long time,and trained Qui Gon Jinn. Anakin is but a padawan,a very strong padawan but one none the less. Its a learning experience for him and Obi Wan even tells Anakin he can't take dooku without him.

    ROTS:
    -Obi-Wan and Anakin Vs. Dooku - 2 on 1

    They were both assigned to rescue the chancellor. Was Anakin supposed to duke it out alone with Dooku as Obi Wan stands there,arms crossed nodding to chancellor,waiting till after Anakin is done to free him?
    Besides,last time he escaped, this time,three years after,they'll try again together so that they can defeat him finally.

    -Obi-Wan shoots Grievous
    I don't think he enjoyed shooting grievous,but his lightsaber was gone and it was the last weapon he could use in defense. Obi Wan even expresses his distaste for the weapon.

    ''How uncivilized!''-Obi Wan

    -Windu, Fisto, Tinn, Kolar Vs. Sidious - 4 on 1
    ''I will go with you,the chancellor is very powerful.''-Anakin
    Comming from Anakin Skywalker that he is powerful means something,seeing as Anakin is the most powerful jedi. Besides,Mace didn't want it to turn into a duel [even though the 4 on 1 didn't work out] He wanted to intimidate Palps to surrender so they could arrest him.

    -Yoda beheads guards (I think).
    Nope,they both notice him and he uses the force to heavily knock them over. You never know whether they died or were just knocked unconscious.

    -Obi-Wan's 'high-ground' move.
    ''Don't try it Anakin,I have the higher ground.''-Obi Wan
    He clearly notifies Anakin that he has the higher ground, and if he pulls a stunt he will do what must be done in self defense. Obi Wan didn't look foward to killing Anakin, he wanted to go after the Emporer instead because he didn't think he could do it,but he realized he had no choice. He warned Anakin what would happen,and offered him a chance, which Anakin spit on.


    TESB/ROTJ:
    -Luke encouraged to kill Vader


    But Luke didn't ever kill Vader, he injured him on cloud city in a duel when he just thought Vader was evil and he had to kill him. When he realized it was his father he saved him from the darkside after refusing to kill him.


    Even Sidious doesn't go around lopping off heads and will gladly watch rather than help his apprentices. Dooku disarms Anakin then pushes him away in AOTC and incapacitates Obi-Wan and clearly his final strike was going straight down in a clean finish.

    Sidious doesn't need to help Vader, He's the most skilled fighter, and his most powerful apprentice yet.By the time he needs to help Vader [ROTJ] He'd rather Luke kill him and take his spot,gaining a younger and more powerful apprentice.

    It was Mauls mission in TPM to track down the Queen, but when the Jedi got involved he had to kill them to cover up the sith track. He fails.Sidious is at Coruscant at the time, he couldn't intervine.

    He knew Dooku could handle Obi Wan and Anakin, and he was instructed to just toy with Anakin bringing out his anger.


    An 'elegant' lightsaber is often used as a blaster when reflecting bolts.

    Well they have to reflect them,so that the Jedi's don't die. The bolts have to go somewhere, and if its a def. enemy, they will be
     
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