Full Series The Jedi in TCW--Unfavorable portrayal?

Since the Ahsoka thread was getting crowded with this discussion, maybe we can move it here. This can be for very specific discussion about the Jedi in TCW and how they were portrayed in the show.

I still don't see the Jedi as any different than their portrayal in the movies. Their attitudes and viewpoints were expanded pretty fairly throughout the show, as was their individual interpretations of what it means to be a Jedi.

For instance, even though Mace and Yoda are pretty much the highest regarded in the Order and the Council, their views on things don't exactly align. Yoda's views on life and the Force and compassion were a bit different from Mace. It should also be noted that a lot of the time the Jedi are portrayed in a less favorable light it's due to pressure from the Senate/Palpatine, which due to their mandate to the Republic they have a difficult time figuring out what they should do.

 

Yes, it's unforgivable. Just like the rest of "The Clone Wars."

 

I think the Jedi Order had kinda fallen from its once-greatness by the time of the movie era. One of the things that had gotten out of hand was an overblown paranoia of falling to the Dark Side. It had reached almost red-scare levels. "Dark Side under the bed!" It resulted in a sclerosis where the Jedi refrained from so many things out of fear of Dark Side temptation, that their effectiveness and ability to discharge their mandate was severely hampered.

 

I think we should have seen more Jedi in general more often so that we got to expand on these new characters. It would be cool to see some respecting the Jedi, and others thinking them an entitled Order. Maybe a more grown up (e.g. Labrynth of Evil or Rise of Darth Vader) perspective would have helped.

Agreed on the Mace and Yoda portrayal - although not sure why Windu didn't wear a cloak like he does in the films when out and about in harsh environments. Wish they didn't have people meet Dooku and Grievous every week though - those should be unique engagements.

I think we could have had more Master Di style last stands and maybe more undercover stories with Jedi like Aayla or Bol Chatak displayed in such roles. Also we didn't really get to see much non Jedi and Jedi interaction. Eg. we had a Lux and Asoka and maybe a friendship or command relationship of Yularen and Skywalker. But we could have seen how other Jedi like say Aayla (e.g. Zygeria or say meeting a princely ruler when protecting his world) or Yoda (e.g. meeting children or Senators) were met by other rulers or citizens. That would be interesting.

We also did not see enough interaction between the Jedi and the Senate, or the Senators' views on the Jedi involvement in the war. Maybe to see worlds supportive of the CIS would have added more balance (not to mention the CIS winning).

 

I think Jedi being show as not White is only proper. Plus it is accurate to the films. Do some Jedi fans not like when Jedi are shown as flawed, clearly but I don't consider it wrong. In fact I hope they build on it.

 

Makes sense in many ways but yet opens the door of the casting of further suspicion upon Kenobi and Yoda in the OT, they were already kinda hazy do to them lying to Luke and trying to turn him into avenging crusader with a belated, course and a crash course at that training.

The Jedi Council were victims of their own greed and arrogance , the shrine effect appears to also make it so the Jedi were also victims themselves rather than perpetrators alone.

 

TCW's portrayal of the Jedi was more or less aligned with what we saw in the movies imo. A group of extremely powerful and well meaning monks who have nonetheless become a bit arrogant, a bit detached, and a bit rigid. A group of flawed heroes. Good stuff.

A far cry from Traviss's inept warmongering circus freaks in Jedi robes.

 

Even in the Traviss books, it was only Mandalorians and Separatists that tended to see them that way.

 

Anakin is a pretty terrible Jedi in the movies, the Jedi Council in the movies is not portrayed as one that voluntarily rewards him for behaviour. The TCW Council absolutely does, and TCW Anakin might be more likable but AOTC is still canon.

 

Anakin also tends to speak more out of turn in TCW and mysteriously is present in senior meetings sometimes..

Would have been nice to see the development of the Great Friendship between Kenobi and Skywalker.

 

I liked how the jedi Council was shown more in DD then in the fugitive arc.

The reason why is because they realized by the end that they were blinded and i liked how Obi wan had that "voice" in his head saying no.

Also that ARC should how extreme Windu is for a jedi.

 

I think it was shown that Obi-Wan and Anakin were close friends like brothers. But Anakin still didn't trust or respect Obi-Wan enough to tell him about his relationship with Padme, and he had mixed feelings about that. Obi-Wan could tell, and he didn't like it. Yoda and the others could tell that Anakin had feelings for Padme. They clearly valued his skills as a Jedi general and warrior, but they didn't trust his emotions and motivations all the time. It's like a respecting an adult for some of his skills but not trusting him for some of his immature traits. Similarly, Mace and Anakin were shown to have more in common than most would think, given how they handled Cad Bane, Mace supporting Anakin's plan to train insurgents (while Obi-Wan was initially hesitant). Anakin, like many characters from the prequels, is smart in TCW, in that he's shown to be a good general with ideas. That's why he is present at meetings with important Jedi Council members. He had success in the war, and given his many talents, he should be a Jedi Master. But rightfully so, I would argue, the Council does not consider him worthy of it due to how sophomoric he can be at times. Plus, I think they found him responsible for Ahsoka's resignation. After it became clear that she was innocent, they were saddened by her exit, and Yoda felt that Anakin was not handling her loss well. Well, that's my take on all of this, since I try to blend the EU novels, the movies, and TCW stories of this era in my mind.

 

Agreed. They find out Dooku is Tyranus.......which means he's the one who ordered the clone army. So by that logic, your enemy created an army for you so you get fight against his army. And yet, they don't do a thing to investigate the clones possibly turning on them. Does this make a lick of sense?

 

Seeing as the actual bomber wasn't Barriss but the wife of that unfortunate guy who was fed nanodroids, by her (on Barriss's instructions) - being off-planet didn't rule out anybody as "the bomber's boss".

 

There would need to be a story after that. If Sidious and Tyranus were able to make it appear as though the army was not meant for the Jedi and the Republic, that would help, I suppose. Cleaning up prequel messes is hard. However, you just gave me more of a reason to like AOTC more than I do, since it's like my least favorite SW film. Wow. Damn. Where have you been all my life? Lol. Jk. Seriously, though, that's a great question.

 

Yeah, considering it makes no sense whatsoever. Only a fool wouldn't try to get the bottom of your enemy creating an army for you. And I think the Jedi finding out Dooku is Tyranus is a big mistake.

 

Ever since I saw AOTC when I was sixteen, I wondered how in the world they couldn't find out it was him. As much as I like Jango Fett's characterization, I do think it was odd that Jango straight up told Obi-Wan, a guy he didn't trust and knew was there to apprehend or kill him, that he was hired by "a man called Tyranus." Why would he give his employer's name away? Seemed so ridiculous. Plus, I think Jango would have referred to him as "Lord Tyranus" or "Darth Tyranus," if he was going to be that stupid. One of those things that doesn't make any sense.

 

I dunno, I think a strong case was made for the order's flaws long before TCW rolled around. Dialogue in AOTC has Yoda flat-out admit that arrogance has become pervasive among the Jedi, even "older" ones. In Stover's Revenge of the Sith, Yoda muses during his fight with the Emperor in the Senate rotunda that he, Yoda, pretty much institutionalized reticence among the Jedi. They were intractable, stubborn, and arrogant and Sidious exploited that to great effect.

I agree with anakinfansince1983 that the Jedi still aren't to blame for what happened and I still disagree with Traviss's worldview that the Jedi are monstrous kidnapping slaver sociopaths, but I do think that their failures are an inherent part of the PT's tragic story and that TCW is only expounding on what we saw and heard about in the movies.

Yeah, I agree that the Council learning Dooku = Tyranus was probably a misstep, but how the Council chose to handle it isn't exactly illogical nor is it inconsistent with how they behave elsewhere in canon. The Jedi have disdain for politics and don't consider themselves politicians, right? Obi-Wan and Mace, in particular, seem almost hostile on the subject. The Jedi think and behave in linear fashion. They're pretty straightforward for the most part. {Which is why, as the war goes on and they start employing deception and misdirection, their schemes pretty much backfire spectacularly.}

To them, if Tyranus/Dooku ordered the clone army, wouldn't it have been used against the Jedi/Republic? The Jedi are used to the Sith behaving and thinking in linear terms as well. Remember, in times past, the Sith kept throwing themselves at the Jedi/Republic in a series of wars. That's how their numbers were depleted and ultimately why they went into hiding. The Banite Sith codified deception and patience into a long con; historically, the Sith in Legends and apparently in nu!canon simply adopted the HULK SMASH approach.

So, it seems to the Jedi that the clones can be trusted because (a) they fight for the Republic and (b) have personally protected and defended Jedi Knights a zillion times across countless theaters of war.

The tragedy, of course, being that Palpatine doesn't behave or think linearly. The Jedi think Sidious is out to conquer the galaxy by force and so would conduct himself in the manner of any conqueror: efficiently. Instead, Palpatine is looking to get the galaxy to surrender itself to him, so his plan is not efficient and is in fact quite complex and labyrinthine.

Definitely a mistake on their part, but not stupid or inconsistent imo.

 

Nah, Jango did indeed tell Obi-Wan that he was hired to serve as the Kaminoan template "by a man called Tyranus, on one of the moons of Bogden." They probably didn't much suspect Fett's involvement with Dooku, though, since Fett was a mercenary and allegedly the best alive.

 

Yeah, I liked Tyranus better when the Jedi never found out who he was. I seem to recall in LOE; that they still didn't quite know who he was. All they knew was he was some guy that made the payments to the Kaminoans after Sifo-Dyas's death.

 

After some of the things in the PT and TCW, I honestly don't care that the PTJO was wiped out.
Kind of hard to be sad to see them wiped out. Aside from a certain few.

 

I knew that there would be issues that might doom the JO since they had to fall and all but what we are supposed to view as canon is just sad.
Same with you on watching the OT and rooting for Luke to become a Jedi. Sort of like Harry becoming a wizard in Harry Potter. Such a wondrous opportunity but the British Wizarding World is very backwards.