Full Series The Jedi in TCW--Unfavorable portrayal?

That's a really bizarre thing. You're not supposed to not care when a group is exterminated.

Order 66 was supposed to be a shocking, silencing moment. Like watching the towers fall on 9/11. When it happens, the sound effects (blasters and such) are actually quieted, the music is very somber, and the camera pulls back like an out of body experience.

But then, this is the franchise that made Anakin so insufferable that a lot of people don't see him as tragic. So.

 

When I just watch the Order 66 scene on its own, I care, but when I think about everything, I don't care as much as I would like to.

 

Refresh my memory - did the Order know that "Tyrannus" was Darth Tyrannus was Count Dooku?

 

Not until the Sifo Dyas arc in Clone Wars.

 

One major thing I did like about the Jedi's portrayal in TCW was that it made them look a lot more questioning and suspicious about how the clones and the war came to be than the films did. In the Order 66 and the Sifo-Dyas arcs, the Jedi figure out something is very wrong and suspicious about the origin of the clones, but they're just caught in such a bad position by relying on them and being distracted by the war that they can't do anything about it yet. At least TCW had the Jedi connecting the dots on some of those things.

 

Dunno about you, but the whole "chip in the brain" thing makes Order 66 more humorous than tragic/shocking. It's not hard to believe that the clones were loyal to the Republic, especially the Chancellor, by that extension.

"but, but, it's confusing! Having the goody clones programmed via a chip made them look innocent! They weren't inherently evil!"

The clones were manufactured by the millions to serve a single purpose: Fight for the Republic. Not the Jedi. They only commanded the clones. The Jedi were blind to the ins and outs of how they functioned as genetically modified beings. As time moved on, trust was established between the clones and the Jedi, to the point of them not viewing the clones as a possible threat. It made Order 66 so much easier for Palpatine.

But no...

Programmed chips turned the good clones into zombies. Thanks, TCW writers... I guess if you think about it, the change pushed their anti-Jedi agenda more since it flipped what I said around. Now the Jedi were evil and the clones were innocent.

 

The Kanan comic elaborates on the chips- the clones don't become zombies, they seem to lose memories of the Jedi and become supremely focused on following orders (specifically Order 66).

 

That's just garbage. The clones, as soldiers, could follow orders without being controlled by a chip. Keep in mind who they were fighting for and who was deemed the enemy following the "Jedi rebellion". Who's pulling the strings? Palpatine.

I don't think the powerful and manipulative Dark Lord of the Sith needs freaking chips to do his bidding.

 

Of course the vast majority of clones wouldn't even need the chip. Most rank and file clones would and do follow Order 66. The chip is there for aberrant clones to be sure that the order is followed.

For Sids, Order 66 if the most important piece in not only his revenge against the Jedi but also in taking complete control of the Republic. Him having plans within plans on top of plans makes sense. He wouldn't leave ANYTHING to chance.

 

Every single clone should be chip-less. Let's go back to the beginning: The clone troopers were born and bred for a single purpose: To fight for the Republic as soldiers. They had to follow orders and train for combat. They are modified beings; rapidly aging, guaranteed to do their job and die off.

"He wouldn't leave ANYTHING to chance." is just an excuse. A lot of people forget just how powerful and intelligent Palpatine was and how he carefully thought out his rise to dominance. Palpatine knew how blind the Jedi were and, indeed, they were, so it made his job a hell of a lot easier. The Jedi had no choice but to use the Grand Army of the Republic. The war even guaranteed this because of the amount of droids they faced. As the war progressed, the Jedi began to trust the clones, and befriend them, so that eliminated any chance to suspect them as wary beings. When Palpatine was "scarred" from Mace Windu's "attempted assassination," it enabled him to strike the Jedi. It was the right moment to do so, and Order 66 allowed him to hit the Jedi without breaking a sweat. As stated before, the clone troopers followed orders, especially from the Chancellor, and they fought for the Republic.

Now they had a choice, of course, to either kill off the enemy (the Jedi) or stay with their targeted friend. So live or die with them. Either way you look at it, the clones would die off anyway due to rapid aging. That thought alone is more powerful than a chip. At the end, most made the decision to kill, some didn't, but the former decision outweighed the latter, and that decision wiped off almost all the Jedi.

Palpatine wins.

 

The rest I don't necessarily disagree with, but why can't the chips be part of Sids engineering? He is smart and powerful and manipulative- thats the point. So why not have something like chips? It makes sense for him to have back up plans. Or plans that he can't be directly tied to in case they are exposed. Or plans whose purpose is to screw his enemies over.

The chips aren't the sole driving purpose behind the clone's actions during Order 66, it is a combination of training, patriotism and orders. The chips are there to catch the aberrant clones that fall through the cracks.

 

As I stated before, the idea of rapid aging is more than enough for clones to follow orders. And don't forget: they were there for a single purpose, and being loyal to the Jedi wasn't one. Also, chips programmed into a clone's mind doesn't make Palpatine powerful and manipulative. It makes him look unsure of himself. That's not who Palpatine is.

 

PRECISELY and well said. There are no chips. The films explain it perfectly. The clones are beings created with limited free will. They obey orders without question. Since Palpatine was not removed from office, he is the highest legal authority and gives a legal authenticated order to execute the Jedi. That is all the clones need.

There is no trance, no chip, just a simple order which they work out how best to execute and do it.

There is no need for a chip. All clones have been created with limited free will. They obey any order from a superior without question. If a Jedi General orders them to jump they jump. Since Palpatine was not removed from office and as the highest legal authority, he gives a legal order which is willfully obeyed. It is not a trance, it is an order and obeyed. The clones do not hesitate, they show no mercy, and they do no regret it. They just do it.

Clones do not have the ability to question a legal order. It's not programming, it's simply explained in the films by them being genetically created clones in AOTC. Simple.

 

Precisely!! Couldn't have said it better. No chips. The films are best. It's an order. That's the simple beauty, the incredible clever, the cunning and genius of Palpatine. It's all LEGAL! That itself heightens the feeling of betrayal when you watch that Order 66 scene.

NO CHIPS!!!

 

Their portrayal would make Traviss proud.

 

So if people are OK with the movies establishing that clones are, on some level, genetically compelled for obedience... what's the issue with a brain-washing chip?

 

If they're compelled to obey by nature then they don't need the chips. The chips imply that they do not have to obey, and TCW flat out establishes that. The chips actually contradict the idea that they are compelled to obey by their very nature, it disproves it. But then TCW set out to do that from the beginning, so.

Personally I think it's redundant and less compelling. The chips are required to solve a problem TCW created itself, which I think they should not have created in the first place. It's also a rather cheap cop out of a situation they created. They wanted to have their cake and eat it, too.

 

Must have missed that episode.

 

Although I would have liked a less overt 'on/off switch' than the chips as presented in TCW, I do support the notion that Palpatine would have a contingency to ensure the obedience of Order 66. Why? Because it shows that Palpatine is smart enough not to underestimate his opponent.

He is planning the downfall of the Jedi Order, and he identifies their greatest strength - their compassion. As the leaders of the clone army, the Jedi went above and beyond their role as the clonetroopers' commanding officers. They weren't just military leaders to the clones, they were guardians, parental figures, mentors, and so on. They encourage clones to expand their minds beyond protocol, to adopt names that marked their individuality, and treated them with respect and admiration for their feats on the battlefield. And I think it's safe to say the clones were devoted as much to their generals as they were the Republic.

Palpatine understands what the Jedi are capable of. That they can inspire loyalty through compassion, not fear - and I suspect he knows that such loyalty is stronger than anything he can hope to create. So he discards loyalty - he aims for sheer obedience, hence the chips. He knows what obstacles the Jedi way will place in his path, so he has a contingency to counter it.

We should also remember that the simultaneous part of Order 66 is a huge factor in its success - to successfully crippled the Jedi Order, Palpatine needs to hit the best and brightest Knights at the same time. He can't guarantee that if he's just relying on the clones adherence to a protocol, even if a legal one. Some hard-line clones would probably still obey, sure (Bacara, Gree, etc), but more will likely pause long enough to consider or seek clarification (Cody, Bly) and others might even refuse outright (Rex). Palpatine needs Order 66 to go off without a hitch, and for that he can't afford a margin of error.

 

I agree that it's redundant... but I don't think that's necessarily bad storytelling, let alone illogical. I agree that Palps probably would have redundant measures in place when it came time to enact the single most important component of his endgame, Order 66. So the presence of the chips absolutely makes logical sense from an inherent story perspective.

Less compelling? In that the clones didn't have a choice? I can agree with that... but by your own admission, their lack of choice in the matter really goes all the way back to AOTC when the Kaminoans declared that clones were genetically modified for obedience and loyalty.

So beyond a redundancy which I would submit makes perfect sense for Palpatine's plot, I'm not sure what the issue is with respect to the chips.

 

There were plenty of things TCW elaborated on that weren't necessarily needed. The world building was appreciated, but not required to understand the movies. The chips add another layer to the backstory.

 

No, when AOTC and ROTS was all we had to go on I didn't feel the need to know more about the clones' reasons for obeying. AOTC said they were loyal to a fault, ROTS showed the result of that. Between the two, the situation explained itself.

But then the equation grew with TCW. TCW showed us the clones as they were during the war, and how they interacted with the Jedi beyond a smattering of banter between Obi-Wan and Cody. We were given a plethora of clone characters, all with their own arcs and evolutions across the series, and as these characters were expanded the question of 'how could these clones, shaped into individuals as they are, still have a uniform response to a coded order?' expanded too.

I take it that's what you're saying anyway, with the notion of the TCW team writing themselves into a corner. So in that regard I think it must come down to personal taste. On a personal level, I think the concept of the chips (and the fact that it can be justified in-universe as outlined in my previous post) is a fair narrative trade for the characters/arcs of clones like Rex, Fives, Dogma, etc.