Speculation The Jedi in the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by LawJedi, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    Didn't Yoda actually say to Luke, "When gone am I, the LAST of the Jedi will you be..." ?

    If we suddenly are told that Yoda was just wrong, and that there actually always were several Jedi that survived, I think it would completely undermine the importance of Luke passing on his knowledge, and "carrying the flame" of the Jedi into a new era.

    We were made to understand for years that Luke was in fact the last one left, and it was up to him to restore the Jedi order. If we're then fed some "well, actually..." story about the fact that there were always others, that would ruin it I think. It would cause one to think, "Then it was NOT up to Luke to reinstate the strength and presence of the Jedi perhaps...Why not just one of those OTHER ones??? o_O
  2. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    True, new members can come from the outside, and being a child of one or more Jedi doesn't mean you have to be a Jedi.

    But if there was a lesson in how the PT Jedi operated, it's that love and attachment may not be such a bad thing. It can cause you to be selfish -or- selfless.

    Last of the old, first of the new. Omega and Alpha; Destroyer and Creator.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  3. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    How long did it take Luke? 4 years?
  4. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    My personal dream of the new Jedi order would be something like the round table of Camelot with Luke as King Arthur. Every Jedi is special and unique, every Jedi is equal and they are valiant and just. A knight is allowed to marry too or leave the order if he feels he doesn't fit anymore.
    The Jedi are not an instrument of the senate. They follow the law, but they will help innocents whenever they suffer as good as they can (while upholding the law).

    No more Jedi who condone slavery or ignore the helpless.
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  5. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 2
    Condone slavery? Qui-Gon did all in his power to free Anakin and his mother...Had he not died and the Sith not enacted an attack on the Republic, he probably would have even gone back to Tatooine to free the rest.
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  6. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    He did no such thing, sir!

    He gambled to save the boy. What would have happened if he had lost? The kid is still a slave.

    He half-heartedly started out negotiating for both Anakin and his mother. And quickly settled for just Anakin. Without thought for what separating a boy from his mother would mean for either of them. Perhaps Anakin's life would have been better off still having his mother with them both still slaves. NOOOOOOO, chosen one, midichlorian count, let's kidnap the child.

    He says in the movie, "We didn't come here to free slaves".

    In the ensuing 10 years they did not go back to free his mother, and apparently they tolerate the existence of slavery (and Hutt gangsterism) on Tattooine just fine. In the same way they tolerate the cloning of human beings as slaves to the Republic on Camino. Let's face it, the PT Jedi were not compassionate because they were detached from human suffering and were blind to evil, not just in the form of the Sith but in the form of suffering and injustice to the people of the galaxy, to slavery, to disposable people.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
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  7. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I'm not talking about a single individual. I'm talking about the Jedi leading the Grand slave army of the Republic into battle.
    And yes, QG is not to fault for that. But again, he is only one Jedi, not the whole collective.
  8. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 2
    Qui-Gon didn't gamble to save Anakin, he manipulated the chance cube via the Force to ensure it worked in his favor. As much as Qui-Gon would have liked to save Anakin's mother as well, the Jedi do have a 'no attachment' rule and while Qui-Gon's philosophies are not exactly in line with the Council's, they are not entirely different either. Had the Sith not popped up when they did and destroyed the foundations of the Republic from the inside out, I firmly believe that the Jedi would have done something about the slavery issue on Tatooine.

    I'm not denying that the Jedi in the prequel trilogy were blind to a lot of evil around (and within) their order. In fact, I'm embracing that; their blindness and corruption were, after all, some of the major contributions to their downfall.

    Oh, and as for the ethics of using a clone army, the Jedi did so very reluctantly. The Republic had no army other than the clones, and the Jedi said themselves that they are not warriors, they are peacekeepers. Desperate times call for desperate measures, unfortunately.
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  9. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Oh, so he cheated first and then gambled.

    He cheated by manipulating the chance cube to ensure he would get the boy instead of his mother as the prize in the bet. (And once again notice the binary finality of the bet -- the boy or his mother). Then he gambled on the results of the pod race.

    If Anakin doesn't win the pod race, he is still a slave, right?

    The clones are shown, over and over, to be disposable people. The Jedi don't stop and mourn when a clone dies. They are barely treated as individuals -- in fact only a few such as Commander Cody rise above the faceless hoards. Clones are not allowed to retire from service and exercise their own free will. They are not treated as human beings.

    When Obi-Wan is shown the clones being grown in pods, the proper reaction should have been utter horror. Like this scene in the Matrix when Neo awakens to the real world for the first time. Instead we get nothing, literally nothing, from Obi-Wan. It's unclear how much of that is George Lucas' shitty writing and bad directing, versus how much of it is George telling us what unethical, numb automaton the Jedi are. I think George makes this a recurring theme so his point shines through the muddled storytelling.

    [IMG]
    vs
    [IMG]

    So he didn't do everything in his power to free Anakin's mother....
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  10. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, the OJO was corrupted.

    With Lukes order I want to see a new and shining and non-corrupt counterpoint, because that would showcase the inner growth the Jedi order went through. It would make the story much more meaningful than a simple return to the outdated morals and rules of the OJO would.
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  11. darthtuttle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2004
    star 4
    So the uptight morals of the old order is gone. The new challenges will be structuring it, gaining public support and most importantly bringing a full understanding of the nature of the force. Perhaps qui-gon and the whills will play a role.
  12. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 6
    I just hope the jedi are happy and not cranky old people.
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    There's an element of it in the AOTC novelization:

    P204-207
    Obi-Wan stared at the closest embryo, floating contentedly in its fluid, curled and with its little thumb stuck in its mouth. In ten short years, that tiny creature, that tiny man, would be a soldier, killing and, likely, soon enough killed.

    He shuddered and looked to his Kaminoan guide.

    "Come," Lama Su bade him, walking along the corridor.
    ...
    "Would you care to inspect the final product now?" the Prime Minister asked, and Obi-Wan could hear excitement in his voice. Clearly he was proud of this accomplishment. "I would like your approval before you take delivery."

    The callousness of it all stuck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living and breathing and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such conditions, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had began all this was almost too much for him to digest.

    The tour took him through the commissary next, where hundreds of adult clones- all young men Anakin's age- sat in neat rows, all dressed in red, all eating the same food in the same manner.

    "You'll find they are totally obedient," Lama Su was saying, seemingly oblivious to the Jedi's discomfort. "We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original, of course."

    "Who was the original?"

    "A bounty hunter called Jango Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself."

    The notion that a Jedi might have been used nearly floored Obi-Wan. An army of clones strong in the Force?

    "Where is this bounty hunter now?" he asked.

    "He lives here," Lama Su replied. "But he's free to come and go as he pleases." He kept walking as he spoke, leading Obi-Wan along a long corridor filled with transparent tubes.

    The Jedi watched in amazement as clones climbed up into those tubes and settled into place, closing their eyes and going to sleep.

    "Very disciplined," he remarked.

    "That is the key," Lama Su replied. "Disciplined, and yet with the ability to think creatively. It is a mighty combination. Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only command an army of life-forms."

    And you wanted a Jedi as host? Obi-Wan thought, but he did not say it aloud. He took a deep breath, wondering how Master Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterally crossed the line to create any army of clones. Obi-Wan realised that he had to suppress his need for a direct answer to that right now, and simply listen and observe, gather as much information as he could so that he and the Jedi Council might sort it out.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 16, 2013
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  14. metr0man Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    There should be no "order". Luke should have a "school" of sorts where he trains young Jedi... Then they have autonomy to do what they want.
  15. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 6
    They should go on field trips to museums and team up with Indiana Jones.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Note that even after he gets Anakin freed, he presents the choice of whether to come or not, to Anakin and Shmi. And Shmi puts the choice to Anakin.
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  17. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    (a) Anakin is a 9 year old boy -- should he really be making a life-altering decision like that? Have you ever asked a 9 year old to make an important decision about his or her life? Still surprising he didn't choose to stay with Mommy.

    (b) It's basically Sophie's Choice for Shmi -- give the boy a chance at a new life or keep him as a slave.

    It's a choice that neither of them should have been forced to make.
  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Maybe not- but taking Anakin away without giving either of them the choice, would have been kidnapping.

    (Strictly, Anakin's free whether he chooses to stay with Shmi or not- but in practice I can't see Watto allowing a freed Anakin to live in the quarters he owns, without expecting something in return).

    Tatooine's part of Hutt Space, an independant faction not part of the Republic, with the Republic nevertheless is not hostile to. With only 10,000 Jedi (Knights & Masters) to handle the problems of a Republic of over 100 quadrillion citizens, they have to pick their battles.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 16, 2013
  19. Marc McAllister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2013
    I just read an article about "The Second Vatican Council" aka Vatican 2, which happened between 1962 and 1965. Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict where on the Council. Way back in 1910 The Church took a vow against modernism and I think that was George Lucas's inspiration for Anakin's harsh treatment from the Jedi councilm and the council's treatment of Qui Gon in TPM. He won't be trained, he's too old, much danger in his future, you can't take any apprentice you already have one... In the early sixties 75% of Catholics went to church every week. In 1965 only 25% of Catholics went to Church, hardly anyone went to confession and people would accept the Eucharist without having confessed their sins first, which was unheard of at the time. So I see Luke's Jedi order being about 25% the size of the PT council. Instead of twelve Masters on the council there are a total of four. If there was 1000 jedi in TPM there's only 250 now. I'd really like it to be that there's no more than twenty jedi in the whole world, and that over the ST most of those leave Luke and go to the Imperial Remnant, but what has Luke been doing for 30 years, and honestly we expect Luke not to fail. The Order is smaller but, because of Luke, better.
    Marc McAllister threw 6-faced die for: 1 Total: 6
  20. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You mean a sort of Jedi academy? Not a huge fan. Imo the force is something too individualistic to teach in the class room.
  21. Marc McAllister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2013
    In 1957 which i think is 16 aby 6 countries got together and formed what would become the European Union, there was only these 6 countries until 1973 (22 aby) when another 3 joined, in 1979 Norway could have joined but the people voted against joining which i would for the ST that Luke asks somebody to join the council but they say no thanks! in 1981 (40 aby) another country joins and in 1986 (45 aby) another two join. I'm sure this is the template they will use for the ST, that the Jedi is half catholic church, half european union and that there will be no more than 9 jedi masters. Luke, Mara, I would include Leia i'd rewrite her story and say she joined the Jedi immediately, chose the Force over politics. An Order the size of a council, 9 in total and in Episode 8 or 9 Ben or Jaina refuse to join the council and side with The Empire/Imperial Remnant for love. Socialism is Good, Democracy is Neutral, Fascism is Evil, now that The Sith have been destroyed, the jedi are going to be on the darkside of the force because they have sworn allegiance to Democracy. In PT and CT the Nazi's were the bad guys it the ST it'll be the Communists.
    Marc McAllister threw 6-faced die for: 1 Total: 20
  22. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I agree that there shouldn't be too many Jedi. I wouldn't mind maybe two dozen or less. I definitely want them to be autonomous.
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  23. Darth Chiznuk E7 Casting Contest Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    What??!! :confused:[face_dunno]
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  24. Marc McAllister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Good- "the many", Neutral-"the few" Evil-"the one". The Rebel Alliance and Luke, who alone represents the Jedi have defeated the Sith (the one) the Jedi are still "the many" but the Rebel Alliance is the few so the new regime that replaces the Empire isn't good it's neutral, and no-one agrees with Luke's Spock like vision, in fact the New Republic tell Luke to give into the Dark Jedi or Imperial Knights or whoever the bad guy is. They play Devil's advocate with the "New Empire" and make him give up ground he has made.
  25. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Well first, in my view socialism is not good, it operates as a veneer of good intentions over autocracy and authoritarianism of the elite behind it. It is in fact fascism with a feel-good fabian mask to make the ruled-over feel good about their enslavement.

    Secondly, George cites Rome and Nazi Germany as the influences for the empire. Maybe we can draw conclusions about the fall of the Empire based on this.

    - The Roman Empire split in half. The emperors had begun transferring power to Constantinople in the East and when Rome did fall the western half of the Empire collapsed but the eastern half continued for another 1,000 years. The western half descended into the dark ages and civilization centered around principalities and city-states.

    - Germany was split between the conquering armies (US, UK, France, USSR). The US/UK/FR parts were joined together shortly thereafter but it remained divided as the US and USSR Cold War polarized the world within 5 years.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013