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PT "The Jedi Master who instructed me" A New Perspective

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StartCenterEnd, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2006
    I always retcon Obi Wan's line in ESB as him just meaning Yoda was one of his teachers (and technically the primary one since he raised the Jedi from birth and taught them the essentials) but recently I got to thinking it could mean something deeper...

    Watch Phantom Menace. Obi Wan respects and admires and even loves Qui Gon and constantly wants to impress and live up to his expectations even if he gently chides and teases him with his dry battle humor ("Negotiates were short!" "Why do I get the feeling we picked up another pathetic lifeform?" etc same as he will do to Anakin).

    Then look how utterly hurt Obi Wan looks when Qui Gon stands forward and proclaims before the council that he will train Anakin, basically tossing Obi Wan aside like garbage. I always saw this as a component of Obi Wan's resentment of Anakin that caused Anakin's training to be a little rocky. Obi Wan and Anakin had a bit of a sibling rivalry going on even though Obi Wan was supposed to be more of a father figure to him.

    Now Obi Wan and Qui Gon disagree on Anakin's training and this argument causes them to be at odds with one another and this bitterness is only resolved later on Naboo when Obi Wan apologizes and says it's not his place to judge his faith in the boy and Qui Gon proclaims he foresees Obi Wan will be a great Jedi knight.

    Finally Qui Gon dies and his last words to Obi Wan is nothing about Obi Wan but a wish, a dying request for Obi Wan to train the boy and he agrees and goes on to train him.

    Then he fails miserably. He failed his master who threw him away like poodoo when he discovered Anakin and who's dying wish was for Obi Wan to train the boy. Obi Wan messes all this up when Anakin falls to the dark side and does not fulfill his prophecized role as the chosen one. Obi Wan failed his master's final order.

    He then tries to make it up by training Luke in ANH...then he dies. At this point his mission to redeem his failing to Qui Gon has been terminated and he really has failed Qui Gon.

    Thus....he feels like Qui Gon would not regard him as his apprentice anymore due to his failure and instead proclaims Yoda as the Jedi Master who instructed him.

    He never earned Qui Gon's respect (in his own mind) or earned his role as his padawan, something Qui Gon brushed aside in order to train Anakin which then passed to Obi Wan, a role he utterly failed and failed to rectify with Luke because he died too soon to properly train him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No. It means that Yoda trained him in the Jedi Arts and Qui-gon taught him in the field. It has nothing to do with trying to ignore Qui-gon because of Anakin. Yoda is going to train Luke, not Qui-gon. There is a consistency in needing the Jedi to be alive in this regard. Yoda has to train Luke and not Obi-wan.
    Luke trains Rey before his own death.
     
  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You're really going off a cliff with this one. I see none of that. In the apology scene Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan end on good ground, with Qui-Gon admitting that Obi-Wan will become a greater Jedi than him, which he does become. Obi-Wan did everything he could and Anakin's fall wasn't his fault. Anakin was a grown man, who made his own decisions. Qui-Gon did not blame Obi-Wan for Anakin's fall.

    As for the line: Yoda gave Obi-Wan direct orders during the Clone War, served as a mentor to him, and continued to give him orders after Order 66. This is what Obi-Wan meant.
     
  4. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    But Obi-Wan DID train Anakin to knighthood. He succeeded.

    Did he contribute to Anakin's fall? Of course, along with the Order and most importantly, due to Anakin himself. (Personally, I feel Obi-Wan failed in much the way some parents do - they do everything they can but being human, don't do everything they should have when looked at in hindsight.)
     
  5. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 5, 2006
    Had Qui-Gon not respected Obi-Wan I doubt highly he would have entrusted him with the tutelage of the The Chose One. Taking old canon into account, if Qui-Gon had not seen something in Obi-Wan it would have the Agricultural Corps, not Knighthood.
     
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, it's pretty simple and straightforward. Yoda trains all the Jedi at the early stages before they become Padawan learners to other Jedi. You can see it in AOTC, where Yoda instructs a group of younglings. Lucas himself explained as much too:

    "Plotwise, we’re dealing with the insistence of Qui-Gon in taking on this young kid and training him, even though, in theory, the child should have been trained by Yoda until he was about seven or eight years old. And then when he was seven or eight, he’d be given a Jedi. He’d become the Padawan learner to a Jedi.
    So here we’re having Qui-Gon wanting to skip the early training and jump right to taking him on as his Padawan learner, which is controversial and ultimately the source of much of the problems that develop later on."
    - George Lucas

    There was no grudge, lack of respect or failure in Obi-Wan's part. Qui-Gon considered him capable and ready for the Knight trials, he saw him as a wise person and foresaw greatness in him. And he did trust him to train Anakin, which he did (all the way through knighthood).

    This.

    Not in the movies I've seen.
     
  7. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 6, 2017
    IMO -

    It was a gesture of respect and trust on the part of Qui Gon toward Obi Wan that he had successfully completed his training and was ready for the Trials.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No, in that line he def wasn't saying "go learn from the guy who taught me in lightsaber class when I was 4." He was referring to Yoda acting as his guide and mentor since the passing of Qui-Gon.
    What movies have you seen exactly?

    "I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you." - Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
    "I thought I that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." - Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi

    Have you seen those two movies?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, he's saying go learn from a guy who taught me (wether it was as a kid or not is irrelevant). He did instruct Obi-Wan, just like he did most Jedi.

    Luke is to be trained as a Jedi, so he's referring to Yoda as someone who has teached and trained Jedi. Not someone who merely guided him after he became a Knight.
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    It's very relevant. Obi-Wan wasn't just a Jedi who had taken a class from Yoda once. Yoda has closely acted as his mentor for decades. There is a substantial difference.

    Okay, how is this relevant to my statement?

    I see you've ignored the dialogue from the films showing Obi-Wan himself acknowledging his failures in training Anakin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Yeah, and I think it is missing some of the films' meaning to ignore this.

    A link I've been thinking about tonight; Obi-Wan lecturing Anakin in AOTC relative to (the scripted version of) his claim he has failed Anakin in ROTS...

    "Patience! Use the force. Think."
    (then)
    "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!"

    I think it possibly demonstrates that Obi-Wan tried to teach Anakin by telling more than showing, and it therefore didn't stick. Anakin could never truly apply some of his teachings.

    It also links to ESB, with Obi-Wan reassuring Yoda that "(Luke) will learn patience". Obi-Wan knows from experience with Luke's father that telling Anakin over and over never really got through to him, yet ironically as Obi-Wan seemed to hint in ESB - Anakin in ROTS suggests patience to him. (Anakin: "I say patience." Obi-Wan: "Patience?")
    It just tragically came too late for Anakin I think, and is something he can't fully apply still, leading to the quick and easy path.
    Luke is generally a more balanced character than Anakin anyway, but I do think Obi-Wan's developed method contributed to this.

    Additionally I think "Use the force" as advice is a little redundant for a 10-year apprentice.

    Contrastingly, Qui-Gon and Palpatine seem to understand the needs of a unique padawan like Anakin.
    One example of a teaching technique here, is the fact Palpatine makes Anakin seemingly reach conclusions himself, when really they have been anticipated and planted by Palpatine.
    For example -
    Palpatine: "Search your feelings. You know... don't you?" Anakin: "...I know they don't trust you."
    And-
    Palpatine (script): "Their actions will speak louder than words." then of course Anakin sees Mace seemingly attempting to assassinate the Chancellor.

    It makes it seem that Obi-Wan really didn't stand as much of a chance at guiding Anakin to the right path after Qui-Gon's death. Qui-Gon seems to sense in Anakin something other Jedi Masters don't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Some examples of Qui-Gon starting Anakin on his path.

    Qui-Gon advises Anakin before the podrace - "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." which I get the impression Anakin takes on board to win the race.

    Qui-Gon wisely advises Anakin "Training to be a Jedi is not an easy challenge. And even if you succeed, it's a hard life."
    Anakin's enthusiasm makes him still want to become a Jedi, his childish optimism is a bit of a tragic hint at what is to come.

    And when Qui-Gon later tries to impart some complex wisdom on Anakin regarding symbiosis with midichlorians, and Anakin is confused, Qui-Gon calmy and warmly reassures "With time and training, you will (understand)." It seems to be a lesson that is never followed up due to Qui-Gon's death.

    Anakin seems to follow Qui-Gon's lead, after all Qui-Gon's last instruction is to stay in the Naboo-fighter cockpit. ;)

    I admit the screen-time between Anakin and Qui-Gon in TPM is brief, but I think it speaks to their bond that this amount of interaction left an impression.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  13. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 20, 2015
    Yoda trains all of the Jedi at some point. The only Jedi we know that he's directly trained as in going on missions is Dooku. I don't see why anyone has any complaints about Obi-Wan saying that Yoda "instructed" him.
     
  14. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 13, 2014
    IMO, it's a another case of Obi-Wan not telling the entire truth to Luke. To send Luke to his former master, holds a lot more weight in getting Luke to follow his wishes than to just send him to some random Jedi. Luke still revered Obi-Wan, so by Obi-Wan calling Yoda his former master, it makes Luke hold Yoda in even higher regard, and with more respect.
     
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Yoda is Obi-Wan's former master, though.

    I don't know why people insist on making this more complicated than it needs to be.
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, he wasn't just a Jedi who had taken a class from Yoda. He has trained for years under him, just like most younglings before they become Padawans to other Jedi. Yoda teaches all Jedi training 101 basics. Luke is to be trained the same way, hence why he sent him to Yoda (also because there's nobody else to do it).

    He says he failed Anakin (not necessarily the same thing), which if you don't ignore the context and what you actually see what's in the movies, you'll realize it's merely "father's guilt", not actual fault since we did see that he had nothing to do with Anakin's fall or training flaws.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No. He wasn't. Luke wasn't trained the same way either. Luke underwent a guerilla style of training that we never see Yoda teach any younglings.

    Yelling someone "you failed them" isn't the same thing as failing? Also "father's guilt" is never mentioned, nor is Obi-Wan his father, and "we" see multiple times in the PT where Obi-Wan made mistakes that could be labeled failures, including letting Anakin have a possessive relationship while serving as an active Jedi.
     
  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Ugh...

    "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

    The point is that he's going to Yoda in order to be trained as a Jedi. Yoda taught Obi-Wan too during his early years. He's to teach Luke as well.

    That's beside the point. The way he was trained is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the fact that he's there to be trained and learn the ways of the Jedi.

    Isn't the same as failing to train him (which he sucessfully did). Nor did he fail him. Anakin fell on his own accord due to his own choices.

    If you're going to be that deliberately pedantic and obtuse to the point that you can't get a figure of speech, there's no point in wasting my time discussing with you.
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But he isn't referring to his time as a child. He's referring to Yoda's role as his mentor. Why is this complicated to grasp?

    It's completely the point. Yoda doesn't put blinders on Luke and get him to defend blaster bolts. He gives him insight, focus and tries to teach him patience and belief in the Force.

    Not according to TWO films.

    And yet, here you are. Making ridiculous points trying to refute straightforward dialogue from the films.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Because there is a difference. Yoda taught all the Jedi the ways of the Force. We see this in AOTC with the Younglings. Luke is being sent to learn how to use the Force from the same Jedi who taught him how to use the Force. Obi-wan is referring to his childhood. Qui-gon's job was to teach Obi-wan how to be a Jedi in the field. In TPM, Qui-gon talks about diplomacy to Obi-wan. About how the Trade Federation is filled with cowards who will fold when push comes to shove and how the negotiations will be short as a result. Those are the kinds of things Qui-gon, like many other Jedi Masters, taught. Yoda teaches Luke the ways of the Force just as he did Obi-wan.

    Obi-wan talks with Yoda and Mace when it comes to other matters, like voicing his concerns for Anakin's well being. That's not the same thing. Yoda only does that with Luke after he's long dead and after Luke has been left broken by Ben's betrayal.

    No, he just makes Luke stand upside down and use the Force to levitate objects, which is another way of training a Jedi.

    [​IMG]

    YODA: "Concentrate... feel the Force flow. Yes. Good. Calm, yes. Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."

    Compare to what he taught the Younglings.

    YODA: "Reach out. Sense the Force around you. Use your feelings you must."

    And then to what Obi-wan says to Luke.

    OBI-WAN: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

    LUKE: "You mean it controls your actions?"

    OBI-WAN: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."


    OBI-WAN: "This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct."

    LUKE: "With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am I supposed to fight?"

    OBI-WAN: "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings. You see, you can do it."

    But then, what do I know?
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    This tangent was so irrelevant to the discussion here I'm just going to say my original point: Obi-Wan was referring to Yoda acting as his mentor when he said "the Jedi Master who instructed me."

    So he trained him differently than we see him training the younglings, agreed.

    You know a bit. But you have MUCH to learn.
     
  22. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Agreed. To be fair, had Obi Wan been with his friend during that tumultuous time after Palpatine's reveal, that would be interesting. Perhaps he could have talked Anakin down.

    Many things contributed to Anakin's fall. But Anakin made the choice to betray Windu.

    I think we did see Yoda and Obi Wan interact in the PT, in terms of instruction. Including a little in TPM. Perhaps one more line during their chat at the end, about Yoda saying, "Still selfless you are, I see." I do believe Obi Wan referred to Master Yoda saying he should be mindful with his initial dialogue with Qui Gon at the beginning of the film.
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It is relevant. He's talking about being trained in the Jedi Arts. Not about what he does as a Jedi. That's why Lucas showed us that there was more than just what Yoda did in the OT, when it came to Jedi training. Lucas was showing us that Yoda trained Jedi, which followed on his original idea that Yoda was more dedicated towards teaching as a guru, than always going out in the field as Obi-wan did.

    Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

    Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

    Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

    Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

    Marquand: They use it as a technique.

    Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.

    Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?

    Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

    Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.

    Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.

    --ROTJ story conference transcripts, 1981.


    So with that, Lucas introduced the idea of another Jedi training Obi-wan, who would go out into the field and teach him in a mentorship program.

    No, he used a different technique, but one that was based on the same principles. Yoda's method in the Temple is the same one that Obi-wan uses on Luke. What Yoda does with Luke later on was similar in that he teaches him to reach out with the Force via his feelings, much like he told the Younglings in the Temple and Obi-wan had said to Luke. Also, Lucas and Kasdan did intend for Luke to continue the training via seekers.

    [​IMG]

    It was among the scenes that were never completed.
     
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    That's funny, because what he says is "the Jedi Master who instructed me."

    He taught Obi-Wan to use common sense to figure out the map, something a child was able to do. This was him acting as a mentor to Obi-Wan.
     
  25. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Someone verbalizing, "I failed him," does not BY ITSELF mean the speaker failed the other person. It means the speaker believes that. It may be true, it may be false - heck, it may have an element of truth in it without being "true."

    I'm rather certain that many people - parents, teachers, heck even politicians - can believe they "failed" someone or a bunch of someones when they were unable to overcome over factors, failed to realize certain factors came into play, or made misjudgments. And should there be no "other factors" the mentor often believes there is more he/she could have done.

    So Obi-Wan takes Anakin's failure upon himself - that means he blames himself for how the Order interacted with Anakin, how Anakin clung to his attachments, how Palpatine got his hooks into Anakin... and not all that was within Obi-Wan's control/anything he could have foreseen.
     
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