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PT "The Jedi Master who instructed me" A New Perspective

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StartCenterEnd, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    There is nothing in TPM or other films to preclude the idea that Qui-Gon might not have been Obi-Wan's first master in the traditional ( not Bear Clan stuff ) sense of the term. Yoda could have played this role for some amount of time ( as is implied in the case of Dooku ) and then handed Obi-Wan off to Qui-Gon at some point prior to TPM.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, I'm sure the Younglings' training consisted solely of what we saw in Attack of the Clones, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Very logical thing to assume. :rolleyes:

    Why not?

    And he didn't just teach him when he was 4. In TCW, Ahsoka is 15 when she's assigned to Anakin as his Padawan, and it's stated that she's younger than usual for such a thing. So Obi-Wan almost certainly trained with Yoda for some amount of time past the age of 15 before being taken on by Qui-Gon.

    AOTC strongly implies that this isn't how things work. I don't see any reason to assume Obi-Wan wasn't simply trained by Yoda as a Youngling, just like every other Jedi.
     
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  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Objectively as the audience we SEE the failures he's verbalizing firsthand. Obi-Wan:

    - Take Anakin as his apprentice despite barely being a Jedi Knight himself.
    -Thinks he can instruct Anakin as well as Yoda could...he was wrong.
    - Puts up with Anakin's clear instability and allows him to ascend to the rank of Knight.
    - Allows Anakin to continue being an active Jedi while pretending he is unaware of his relationship with Padme.
    - Gives an unstable Anakin the assignment to spy on his evil bestie.

    I'm not saying Obi-Wan was terrible. But he made some HUGE mistakes and did indeed fail as Anakin's master.
    Yoda COULD also be a part time plumber. How is this relevant to what is actually shown and confirmed in the films?
    Because teaching 4 year old's to block blaster bolts is different than teaching a grown man who is the last chance to defeat the Sith.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  4. Emperor_Jar_Jar

    Emperor_Jar_Jar Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2018
    At the end of Revenge of the Sith Obi Wan takes Anakins falll to the dark side of the force as his own. In his own word he says "I have failed you Anakin" and he takes this dearly. He also states that Anakin was like a brother to him and how he loved him. The only reason why Anakin fell to the dark side was because he was afraid of leaving Padme and wanted to do what ever he can to save her. That is why he fell and Obi wan even asked Padme if anakin was the father and apoligizes to her. Knowing that he will be the one to take his metaphorical brother's life. But Obi-Wan couldnt kill him and that is why he left him there on the planet of Mustafar.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Which means "training in the Jedi Arts", which is instructing him. How hard is this to grasp? Instruct means teach a subject or a skill. Training is defined as teaching or developing one's self. Teaching is defined as ideals or principles are taught by authority.

    No, this was answering his question while making it a teaching lesson for the children.

    [​IMG]

    The training is the same. Teaching a Jedi to use the Force and to be aware of the dark side of the Force is what Yoda did. What he did with the Younglings is what allows the Jedi to fight the Sith. The only thing Yoda doesn't do is teach Luke Lightsaber combat the same way that Jedi like Cin Drallig did and that's because he doesn't have a Lightsaber. That's why Luke's skills would be considered rudimentary compared to his father and Obi-wan in their prime.
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No, it literally means what he said.

    You're learning.=D=

    [​IMG]
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm talking to you.

    [​IMG]

    This.

    [​IMG]

    And this, leads to this...

    [​IMG]

    And this...

    [​IMG]

    And that includes training in the Jedi Arts as a child. Training and instructing are the same thing.
     
  9. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Bruh no lie sometimes your replies are so irrelevant to the topic that I am literally that GIF. [face_rofl]

    A. Obi-Wan never mentions the Jedi arts.
    B. Yoda doesn't do the blast shield training with Luke, that was Obi-Wan.
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    AOTC is the place where we find out Dooku was Yoda's padawan. If you think the younglings scene tells us literally everything about the way things work, you could be reading too much into it.
     
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    But that's because we're positively told Dooku was Yoda's Padawan (sort of, it wasn't really stated definitively until TCW). There's absolutely no reason to assume Obi-Wan was, especially given that we're actually shown the person Obi-Wan had a specific Padawan/Master relationship with (hint: it's not Yoda). Also take into account that the whole concept of Yoda training the Younglings was established in large part specifically to explain Obi-Wan's lines in the OT, and was in fact promulgated by LFL to the EU writers and worked into the narrative of the Jedi Apprentice series even before the release of Episode II. All the evidence converges on Obi-Wan having been one of many Jedi who trained with Yoda as a Youngling. It would be utterly bizarre to assume anything else.

    Also, speaking of TCW, the very episode where it's stated that Dooku was Yoda's individual Padawan also implies that Obi-Wan was not. In one of the Yoda arc episodes, one of the Jedi speculates that the voices Yoda is hearing in his head are being transmitted by Dooku, and justifies this theory based on the special connection Dooku had with Yoda as his Padawan. Obi-Wan then points out that they (referring to his fellow Jedi) were all Yoda's Padawans at one point. Obi-Wan very clearly groups himself in with the rest of the Jedi in this regard. He makes no mention of ever having shared the same special relationship with Yoda that Dooku did.
     
  12. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    This might be overly simplistic in comparison to the convos going on here at the moment, but I always figured when Obi-Wan mentions Yoda as the "master who instructed me," he wasn't referencing being specifically assigned as a padawan to Yoda. I see it as him mentioning that Yoda at SOME point in his young life trained him in certain aspects of the Jedi ways. This is surely more than just youngling lightsaber class. I imagine Yoda may have taught children in other ways too. When someone here mentioned that Obi-Wan could also be referencing Yoda's training him how to commune with Qui-Gon as well, that made a lot of sense to me as well.

    Basically I see it as Obi-Wan is simply referencing Yoda (to a person who knows nothing about him) as a teacher/mentor in the ways of the Force, just in a general sense. If I were to tell someone they were going to meet one of my childhood teachers, I would say something similar: "You will meet Miss Wessel, my old schoolteacher." All of that is true. And I wouldn't need to elaborate that I had her for only one year, and someone else taught the science and gym classes, and that I had several other teachers throughout my childhood, cos that's not relevant here (nor does that person care.) I see this encounter the same way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Jedi Arts is Jedi Training.

    But Yoda says the same thing to the Younglings that he says to Luke and Obi-wan also said to Luke. Jedi training is about stretching out with your feelings while using the Force. Whether you're lifting objects or blocking blaster bolts, the result is the same. You're just reaching out with your feelings and acting on instinct.


    Yoda refers to the Youngling named Jack as a Padawan.

    YODA: "Truly wonderful the mind of a child is. The Padawan is right."

    So, yes, the scene told us everything we needed to know. Calamari is also right. Lucas Books first addressed this with "The Rising Force", which came out before Lucas had started writing AOTC. He had already mapped out the basics of Jedi training before making the next film.

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "I think we are overlooking an obvious thread."

    OBI-WAN: "Which is?"

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Count Dooku was Yoda's apprentice, and Count Dooku has fallen to the dark side."

    OBI-WAN: "All of us have apprenticed to Master Yoda. He cannot be held accountable for Dooku's descent."

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "But they are connected, profoundly."

    Of course, Yoda's direct relationship to Dooku was an EU reference to what was written in "Dark Rendezvous" and "Legacy Of The Jedi", which portrayed Dooku as learning more under Yoda than his own Master.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think both ends of the argument really apply;

    Yoda taught Obi-Wan as a youngling, and mentored him over the course of his Jedi career leading up to ROTS, plus became somewhat of a duo with Obi-Wan as the only two Jedi left after Order 66. The dialogue works in several ways.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Obi-Wan never mentions Jedi arts.

    Um, Yoda never said that.
    One could say that about literally every scene where Yoda gives Obi-Wan advice/orders.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  16. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Yoda does actually say that. Dialogue at the very beginning of the scene.



    As for the multi-thread back-and-forth between you two, please ramp down the personal attacks and TSC, for the love of all things holy, plz mix up your Jim Carrey gifs.

    Thank you.
     
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    :oops:Call me crazy, but Yoda says "use your feelings you must" he doesn't say "Jedi training is about stretching out with your feelings while using the Force."
     
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The point is that the example of Dooku shows that such a thing is not unthinkable. If it was true for Dooku, it could have been true for some other individual as well. There's absolutely no reason to assume such a thing could only apply to Dooku and no other. Argument from ignorance goes both ways.
     
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    But the relationship shown between the Younglings and Yoda is shown as the default. As I already stated, it was specifically put in there to explain Obi-Wan's lines in TESB in light of the fact that he is clearly shown as being apprenticed to Qui-Gon, not Yoda. Therefore, to assume what you're assuming is utterly illogical.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    And as I've already stated:
     
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It could apply to any other Jedi that was Yoda's Padawan. Obi-Wan wasn't, he was Qui-Gon's. Nobody said Yoda didn't have Padawans. He had Dooku. But Yoda's main role was of teaching Younglings before they are given to Jedi for their next stage of Jedi training. That's why what Obi-Wan said in TESB didn't cease to be true once TPM established him as Qui-Gon's Padawan.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    They're the same thing.

    Once again.

    YODA: "Concentrate... feel the Force flow. Yes. Good. Calm, yes. Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."


    YODA: "Reach out. Sense the Force around you. Use your feelings you must."



    OBI-WAN: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

    LUKE: "You mean it controls your actions?"

    OBI-WAN: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."



    OBI-WAN: "This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct."

    LUKE: "With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am I supposed to fight?"

    OBI-WAN: "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings. You see, you can do it."


    Even Qui-gon says as much to Anakin.


    QUI-GON: "Remember, concentrate on the moment. Feel. Don't think. Trust your instincts."


    Also, one more from Yoda.


    YODA: "Use the Force. Yes...Now the stone...Feel it."


    Then there's Luke what he told Rey.


    LUKE: "Breathe. Just breathe. Now reach out."

    The main part of learning to use the Force is to stretch out with your feelings. Each time, they wind up being able to do so. What method they use doesn't matter, what does is the instruction.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    *Jim Carrey GIF*

    So again, Yoda never tells the younglings "Jedi training is about stretching out with your feelings while using the Force."
     
  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So Darth Maul was once trained by the Jedi? Since he knows how to use the force. Jedi training is the sole domain of the Jedi order, right?

    And since we're acknowledging that learning to use the force and the ability to use it is something you feel - i.e. you use those feelings instinctively, not thoughtfully, the assertion that it needs a significant amount of training and proffered knowledge from a Jedi before you can demonstrate ability with the force, is by definition of what is "instinct" and "feeling" is incompatibile and redundant.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Are you arguing to be contrary or are you just not getting it?

    Jedi Arts is Jedi training. Everyone else figured that out except for you.

    Sith training comes from Jedi training. They're indistinguishable except for the Sith choosing to embrace fear, anger and hate.