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PT "The Jedi Master who instructed me" A New Perspective

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StartCenterEnd, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Sith are taught to let go of attachments from birth?

    Wasn't Yoda's reluctance to train Anakin to deal with his attachments the reason Anakin became easily seduced?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    They have no attachments to anyone. This is why Maul was separated from Talzin and Savage, at a young age. When he was reunited with them, he developed an attachment that tainted him.

    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    Right. In training from birth, both sides discourage attachments. The Sith only use attachments as a gateway to turning someone to the dark side, that was trained as a Jedi and has an attachment. Hence using that trick on Anakin and Luke, and why Snoke considered Ben to be weak even after killing Han.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    If attachments are a pretext to becoming seduced by the darkside then attachments are something that can produce Sith. Therefore not something the Sith would discourage.

    The Jedi's selflessness is defined by their eschewing of attachments. Isn't something that works towards selflessness the antithesis of Sith philosophy?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Sith are raised from birth to use the dark side and to learn to control their fear and focus their anger and hatred. They don't need to be attached like Anakin needed to be. They just need to be greedy.

    No, because the Sith encourage greed and a lust for power, but for personal gain such as being all powerful and eliminating their Master when the time comes. Being raised from birth to want power for the sake of power. Palpatine killed Plagueis because he had learned all there was to know and he was done with him. Maul would kill Palpatine for the same reasons, same with Vader.
    Ben kills Snoke because he was done with him and assumed the role of Supreme Leader, mirroring Vader's intention with Luke.

    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    --George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.


    The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

    As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

    By Episode III, the Sith are ready to reveal themselves. There's no more need for subterfuge, no more need for skulking in the shadows. Darth Sidious, the Sith mastermind, will make good on a 1000-year plot to finally avenge the fallen order, destroy the Jedi Knights, and retake command of the galaxy.

    --Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60.

    What the Jedi teach is compassion, which is unconditional love for all beings. To not be attached to one person, nor to seek out power for the sake of power or for revenge at the loss of an attachment. Having those will quickly lead one to the dark side.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Who is everyone else? Are there other people here who think nouns are verbs are the same thing? Please, expose them.
    Completely made up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's gone full "yes but no but" now.

    The Sith aspire to the opposite of everything the Jedi stand for by training in exactly the same way as them except when they don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Everyone in here who understands that when Qui-gon referred to the Jedi training as the Jedi Arts, it meant the same thing. Same with Grievous.

    QUI-GON: "He was well trained in the Jedi Arts."

    GRIEVOUS: "You fool. I have been trained in the Jedi Arts by Count Dooku himself."

    Well, what are the Jedi Arts? Surely not artwork. But like martial arts. Well, didn't Lucas, Kasdan and Marquand once describe Jedi training as something like that?

    Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

    Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

    Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

    Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

    Marquand: They use it as a technique.

    Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.

    Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?

    Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

    Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.

    Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    So this thread has officially devolved to @darth-sinister arguing against himself that arts and training have the same meaning.
     
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  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It could apply to other Jedi in general, that's the point. Being Yoda's padawan applying to any other Jedi who was Yoda's padawan is a tautology. If it was true for Dooku it could have been true for Obi-Wan at some point prior to TPM, if there's nothing in the films to rule it out.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, there is: he's Qui-Gon's Padawan, not someone else's. Prior to TPM he was still Qui-Gon's Padawan. Prior to being Qui-Gon's Padawan, he was a youngling and learned under Yoda, just like virtually everyone else before they are assigned to other Jedi. That's how it works.
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    We don't know that for certain, it's just an assumption. Unless there's something in nucanon which rules it out.

    So AOTC has a scene that's specifically there to dispel any notion that Yoda may have trained a certain padawan in the traditional one-on-one sense, Yoda just trains the younglings, no way he trained Obi-Wan in any other way, and then later on the film just kind of comically turns around and goes "and by the way Dooku was Yoda's padawan and not as a youngling, deal with it suckers"?

    Doesn't that seem a little strange?

    Also there's this:

     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  12. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2014
    "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi master who instructed me"

    Clear as day.
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    What's clear about it? We are combing over the details of the saga over and over to figure out the meaning of this one line lmao. "Clear" would have been:

    "There you will learn from Yoda, my old master."
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Younglings are Padawans, per Yoda's own words. A group of Padawan Younglings were all taught by Yoda at first, then paired up with another Jedi who furthered their training.

    As I've noted before and just recently, Yoda would from time to time finish a Jedi's training beyond just the classroom. Dooku was one such case. It was first introduced in "Legacy Of The Jedi" and explored further in "Dark Rendezvous" and finally mentioned in the canon series, "The Clone Wars: Voices" when Obi-wan and Ki-Adi-Mundi discuss Yoda's unusual affliction and Dooku's possible involvement.
     
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Well, obviously. Padawan = (Jedi) apprentice. Yoda is not refering to Padawan as a rank in that conversation. I'm refering to Padawan as the next stage in Jedi training, when one is exclusively assigned to a Jedi for further training until Knighthood.

    Also, Dooku being Yoda's Padawan was introduced and established in AOTC: "Fought well you have, my old Padawan."
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Which also could have referred to the Youngling stage. The EU chose to interpret it as Yoda taught him beyond the classroom.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So it's a redundancy then since that makes everyone Yoda's old padawan. Except Anakin.
     
  18. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2014
    Oh yeah, because Obi-Wan calling Yoda his old master wouldn´t be confusing in the context of The Phantom Menace at all. And I´m not combing over anything.

    I look at the younglings scene in Attack of the Clones and Obi-Wan´s line in The Empire Strikes Back and it´s perfectly clear to me that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan was a youngling before he became Qui-Gon´s padawan learner just as it´s perfectly clear to me that 2+2=4.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Oh goody. Can we get a repeat of the discussion about what people mean they say Obi Wan is ..


    a Jedi master
    a Jedi, master..
    Master Kenobi
    Master Obi Wan
    master Jedi
    a master Jedi...


    ...and when does it mean that he's someone's master, or not?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Yes Obi-Wan was certainly a youngling in one of Yoda's classes. So Yoda was certainly his instructor. I think the conversation here is exploring whether they have ever had a deeper Master-Padawan relationship.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    It's not really a redundancy. He's just complimenting him the same way other Jedi Masters do with their Padawans, something we see often.

    ANAKIN: "Aim right above the fuel cells!"

    OBI-WAN: "Good call, my young Padawan."

    All of the Jedi had a deep relationship with Yoda, that wasn't dependent on being having been fully trained by him. Even Anakin did, which is why he came to Yoda for help in ROTS and why Yoda talked with Anakin about seeing Qui-gon on Mortis in TCW. He wasn't just the one who trained them, but someone with whom they talked to. Not necessarily in a mentorship way, but in a fatherly way. We see that between Obi-wan and Yoda, when Obi-wan learns that Anakin has turned to the dark side. We saw it with the Council gathering around Yoda, when he tells them that he's been hearing Qui-gon and they worry that he's being attacked by the Sith. We see it with Yoda talking to Kanan on Lothal and both conversations that he had with Ezra, whom he never trained. We see in when he's dying while talking to Luke and when he is finally able to commune with Luke again on Ach To. We also see similar relationships between Plo Koon and Ahsoka Tano, since the former is the one who found the latter and served as a father figure for her, even when she was paired up with Anakin.
     
  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    As great as Yoda is; seems impossible that he would have a deep relationship with every single Jedi. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    A deep relationship isn't the same as a Force bond. Anakin had a strong friendship with Yoda, but Yoda had a Force bond with Dooku and possibly with Mace. Anakin and Obi-wan had a Force bond, which is why they could tell when the other wasn't dead and could still feel each other in the Force. A Force bond is a strong connection to another in the Force. But a relationship where a Jedi comes to talk with Yoda and they hash out whatever issues there are, that's the kind of deep relationship the Jedi have with him.
     
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Nobody said it was.

    It's never shown in the films.

    A bond so deep that he was unaware that Dooku had fallen to the dark side, let alone was a Sith Lord? I guess "Force bonds" don't mean much.


    A bond so deep that he was unaware that Anakin had fallen to the dark side, let alone was a Sith Lord? I guess "Force bonds" don't mean much.

    So strong that you have absolutely no idea about that others motives, thoughts or plans. How powerful!

    Kind of like the "deep relationship" you have with your counselor in high school. Where you go to see them ONCE when things get bad.
     
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  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Maybe Yoda had a Force bond with Chewbacca too, which is why he was compelled to single him out and convey how much he's going to miss him. Presumably he already foresees precisely how long he will be in exile for, and that he will be forced into exile after he fails to defeat Sidious. Otherwise there'd be no incentive for Yoda to indulge in these sentiments. Maybe he felt it was academic to advertise an attachment with one particular wookie out of the many who are about to be oppressed by the Empire.

    Which begs the question. If Yoda is seemingly so certain that he won't be seeing Chewbacca again, why does he proceed with his plan? Why does he go to face Sidious knowing already that the result will be exile? Is it defeatism? Or fatalism? Maybe Yoda thought it would be the death of him and that death might be preferable to struggling along, alone or with Obi Wan. Or having to scour the galaxy looking for survivors. Ultimately, the most attractive solution proved to be living in exile with the excuse that there are no possible Jedi survivors to bring hope, so he might as well take an 18 year sabbatical until Luke is of age, and then refuse to train him initially.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018