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PT "The Jedi Master who instructed me" A New Perspective

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StartCenterEnd, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It was shown in TCW which leads into ROTS.

    A Force bond doesn't mean you can just read minds. A Force bond means that you can be aware of the Living Force within another Jedi. Dooku can sense that Yoda is on Moraband and through that, Palpatine could exploit their Force bond to attack him with Sith Magic. He could not sense his shift towards the dark side, because he didn't try to sense his thoughts and feelings before then. He had no reason to do so. Dooku was better at hiding his feelings. Obi-wan could sense Anakin's tense feelings, but not the root cause of those concerns. Nor could he sense him turn to the dark side when he did.

    No, like the bond between a teacher and student that happens at one stage and you come back to visit them when you're older. You don't need a guidance councilor for that.

    Yoda says it to both Chewbacca and Tarfful, which he does not because of a Force bond, but because he is friends with them. Yoda has no clue what will happen. He says what he says because he will miss them. It had probably been some time since he was last on Kashyyyk and it may be some time before he can come back, if he comes back at all.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    So it is never shown in the films.

    Yeah I know. That's why your nonsense descriptions of a "Force bond" makes no sense.

    Once.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Still canon.

    Force bonds aren't nonsense. The Force is in everyone and everyone is connected to the Force. The bond means that the connection is stronger in some people than others.

    In ROTS. And before that he did a few times in TCW.
     
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Jings. It fair maks ye think.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Not film canon.

    You're made up fan fic about who is bonded to who is nonsense.

    Right, once.
     
  6. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017


    I disagree, in the Novel " From Certain Point OF View " the force ghost of Qui-Gon talks to Obi-Wan, before he trains Luke. Qui-Gon talks about what happened to Anakin and tells Obi-Wan, that it was Anakin's failure and no one could have stopped this Anakin's path to becoming Vader ( not exact words, but pretty much the same thing ).
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Film and cartoon canon. The show is equal to the films.

    It's not fan fic. Yoda and Dooku's bond was discussed in "Voices". Anakin and Obi-wan's bond is shown in the PT, "Rebels" and ANH. Luke and Vader's bond is shown in the OT. Luke and Leia's bond is shown in the films. Leia even feels Han's death. Anakin's bond to Ahsoka was strong and then weakened over time, which is why neither one knew that the other was still alive after Order 66.

    Once is enough.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No the films supercede any conflicts. Also the cartoons are nowhere near equal in my opinion.

    Once is once.

    Yes. It was also shown to be so powerful in AOTC that Yoda had no idea Dooku had fallen to the dark side, and the Council was operating under the premise that he "wasn't a murderer."

    So powerful Anakin didn't know he had survived and Obi-Wan didn't know Anakin had turned to the dark side.

    Apparently it doesn't matter how strong the bond is, since Anakin didn't know Obi-Wan had survived either.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    No, all of the films and the cartoons are equal. There's no more of the "separate but equal" that was there before. And Lucas himself was involved in the show. You can have your opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

    Once is enough to establish that they're friends and that Anakin trusts him enough to go to him.

    Force bonds aren't indicators of when someone goes to the dark side. Force bonds indicate when they can sense each other in the Force and if that person is alive or dead, or somewhere else. Per "Voices", Dooku's bond could be used to attack Yoda's mental facilities. Per "Sacrifice", Palpatine tells Dooku that because of his bond to Yoda, they can use Sith magic on him.

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "I think we are overlooking an obvious thread."

    OBI-WAN: "Which is?"

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Count Dooku was Yoda's apprentice, and Count Dooku has fallen to the dark side."

    OBI-WAN:
    "All of us have apprenticed to Master Yoda. He cannot be held accountable for Dooku's descent."

    KI-ADI-MUNDI:
    "But they are connected, profoundly."

    SIDIOUS:
    "Only the presence of someone significant to you would allow you to sense this ripple through time and space."

    DOOKU: "My old master, Yoda."

    SIDIOUS: "Yes. Master Yoda has come to Moraband, although why, I do not know. We shall, however, use the strong bond that once existed between you and your Master to allow us to see things that we otherwise could not."

    DOOKU: "How can this be done, Master?"

    SIDIOUS: "It is an old art of the dark side. Now, hold out your hand, Apprentice. I need but a drop for the ritual to begin."



    There's nothing that says that he knew that Anakin was dead. He just didn't know that he had turned, at first, but he had a sneaking suspicion which is why he wanted to look at the security cameras.


    Actually, he did believe that Obi-wan was still alive.

    PALPATINE: "Skywalker's apprentice could lead us to other lost Jedi."

    VADER: "Such as Kenobi."

    PALPATINE: "Perhaps, if he lives. Be patient, my old friend. For now, dispatch another Inquisitor to hunt them down."
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Phew. Good thing I still have my opinion. Films > TV.

    Just not enough to tell him anything other than vague what-if scenarios. Didn't really establish a friendship either. Friends usually hang out more than once.

    Just not where they are, what they're feeling or what they're doing. Gotcha.

    Anakin wasn't dead.

    What a deep and powerful "Force bond."

    No , he didn't. Specifically in the ROTS novelization he is surprised to hear from Padme that Obi-Wan lives.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    There's a war going on. Not enough time to hang out and chill.

    Which was established in the OT, when Vader has no clue that Obi-wan is on Tatooine or still aboard the Falcon. Or when Vader is unable to find Luke, but he can feel him growing stronger in the Force.

    I didn't say he was. I said that following Order 66, Obi-wan doesn't think that Anakin is dead prior to checking the security cameras. The longer he's in the Temple, the more it starts to occur to him that it had to be Anakin, but he had to be sure of that.

    I was talking about after ROTS and going into ANH.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    It's a movie. If it was intended to Yoda/Anakin to be established as "friends" there would have been scenes to support it.

    He knows Luke is on Endor. He also knew Obi-Wan was on the Death Star.

    Actually you did:

    When does Anakin die? Or were you just tangled in your own web of trickery and deceit?

    Order 66 occurs in ROTS. Anakin was surprised that Obi-Wan had survived. This signifies he at least considered the possibility he was dead, and wasn't connected to him much via the "Force bond" to sense his death.
     
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    And there was such a scene, when he comes to Yoda and Yoda welcomes his visit. He doesn't say, "Go talk to Obi-wan or Mace".

    Yes, when he's nearby on Endor and Bespin. But the rest of the time, Vader is unaware of where Luke is hiding. He doesn't know that he's on Dagobah or Tatooine again.

    There's no trickery and deceit. I never said that he knew that Anakin was dead. I was making a point that after Order 66, he could feel that Anakin was still alive. Nothing in the film said that he thought that he was killed as well.

    He's not so much surprised, but angry that she had talked to him and he had told her what he did. Note when you watch the film, he's not surprised when she says that she talked to him.
     
  14. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    The intelligent posts in this thread made me realize Anakin was the only one who trained an apprentice who didn't turn to the dark side.

    Yoda trained Dooku, he fell.

    Obi Wan trained Anakin, he fell.

    Luke trained Kylo, he fell.

    Anakin trained Ashoka, she left the Order but did not fall.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Nothing in that scene implies they were friends. It was like going to see a guidance counsellor. At least with Anakin/Obi-Wan/Padme there is joking, teasing and laughing. With Yoda there is a simple question and a simple uncaring answer.

    Point proven.

    In what scene exactly does Anakin die? (Clue, he doesn't)

    Yes, let's argue semantics about what specific feeling Anakin had, rather than admit he didn't sense Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan didn't sense him after Order 66, dispelling your ridiculous "Force bond" notion.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Right, because all friends who have something weighing heavily on their minds, start off with a joke about a priest, a rabbi and an atheist. Funny, I don't recall starting my day off with my friends telling them that my stepfather had cancer with a joke.

    Sensing a presence is not the same as sensing when someone has turned to the dark side or not. Vader can sense Luke when he's near, which is an example of a Force bond. Just as Dooku could sense Yoda on Morabond. But while Dooku was still in the Temple, pretending to be a Jedi, Yoda couldn't sense his turn to the dark side. Likewise, Luke could not sense the conflict in his father from far away.

    I never said that he thought that he was dead.

    I pointed out facts that prove it isn't a notion. They both knew the other was still alive. That's why he never tells Padme that Obi-wan was dead when he's leaving for Mustafar and in the film, he never expresses surprise that he's still alive. And it is why Obi-wan realizes that the Lightsaber wielding attacker had to be Anakin, before going to examine the recordings.
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Anakin and Yoda are not displayed in the films as friends. They seem to have a teacher-student relationship, at best.

    Well if you can't sense anything it aint much use is it.

    Anakin wasn't dead.

    Not according to the film or the novelization. So yeah you did make it up.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Teachers and students are friends as well.

    It's use is that they can feel each other in the Force. That's all I said.

    I never said he was.

    No, he knows that he is alive in the film. That's why when Padme asks about Obi-wan, he says that he hopes that he's still loyal to the Chancellor. Not, he's dead. And when they're on Mustafar, he doesn't say, "Obi-wan's alive?". He says, "Because of Obi-wan?"
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Is that why those words are completely spelled and pronounced differently, because they all have the exact same meaning?

    except not where they are or if they are alive, or if they turned to the dark side.

    Welcome to (film) reality.

    This does not signify him knowing Obi-Wan is alive. If anything he is trying to placate Padme's worries.

    He says this because she tells him that Obi-Wan is alive. And in the novelization he does say "so he's alive."
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    You're deflecting. You can be friends with a teacher or a student, depending on your position and you know that.

    It's point is that everyone is connected to the Force. And yes, they can know who is alive and who is dead. Anakin and Obi-wan were both aware that the other was alive after Order 66 and again after the duel on Mustafar.

    No, he's referring to him being alive. If you read through the novelization again, the dialogue at Padme's apartment is different in many sections including talking about Obi-wan.

    When the novelization differs from the films, the films still come first. Ergo, he never says that or believes that in the films. There's even new novelizations that have been written that utilize what's in the final films over the earlier ones.
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I'm not deflecting anyone. Yoda and Anakin are not shown to be friends. They literally hang out one-on-one once in the entire PT, and it's because Anakin wants something from him. That's not exactly proof of a friendship.

    Nope. Obi-Wan wasn't sure Anakin was alive, and Anakin was surprised Obi-Wan was alive. They were aware after the duel on Mustafar because they both survived that duel, duh.

    Not according to the the novelization, and not confirmed by the film.

    Then it isn't confirmed in the film. The novelization confirms it.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    It's not proof that there isn't a friendship either.

    Obi-wan and Anakin both knew the other was alive, because of their Force bond.

    Anakin's reaction to seeing Obi-wan on Mustafar isn't surprise that he's still alive. His reaction is that the thinks that Obi-wan was brought there to kill him. That Obi-wan brainwashed her into turning against him.

    "One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her, it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-Wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    And to further show that Anakin knew that he was alive...

    "This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done, but he’s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with, but he is going to go along anyway.

    It’s the one moment that says he’s self-aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

    You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi-Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    So, according to Lucas, Anakin was already aware that Obi-wan was alive, when he was still at the Temple.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The fact that they are never shown to be friends is enough. I doubt there is enough production time in films to make scenes specifying which random characters the protagonist ISN'T friends with. Under you're logic we are also to assume that Anakin and Capt Panaka are friends too.

    Not according to the films or novelization.

    When Padme mentions Obi-Wan he says "so he's alive."

    Well this didn't make it into the script, so I guess according to the production staff and writers, he wasn't.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The films never state that Yoda and Anakin weren't friends. The films didn't have time to show Yoda and Anakin sharing some blue milk, to establish them being friends. No more than Yoda and Obi-wan aren't shown to be doing likewise, yet they were friends.

    The film takes precedent over the novelization and in the film, they both knew before they saw each other again. The novelizations adds details, but when they contradict the films, the films always take priority.

    He never says that in the film.

    ANAKIN: "I will not betray the Republic . . . my loyalties lie with the Chancellor and with the Senate . . . and with you."

    PADME: "What about Obi-Wan?"

    ANAKIN: "I don't know . . . Many Jedi have been killed. We can only hope that he's remained loyal to the Chancellor."


    In the novelization, Obi-wan is never mentioned during this conversation.


    ANAKIN: "I saw your ship. What are you doing out here?"

    PADME: "I was so worried about you. Obi-Wan told me terrible things."

    ANAKIN: "What things?"

    PADME: "He said you've turned to the dark side . . . that you killed Younglings."

    ANAKIN: "Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me."


    He doesn't say anything about Obi-wan being alive.

    "So he's alive" is not in the script. http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

    It was only in the novelization and that was because Matthew Stover was allowed to make changes from the film. In the novelization, neither character knows that the other is alive until they find out as they do. In the film, they both knew before coming face to face. The same way that in the novelization, the confrontation between Palpatine and the Jedi Posse is longer as they discuss more about the merits of what the Jedi intend to do, versus what Palpatine has actually done. The book even features Palpatine destroying the recording device before attacking the Jedi. None of which makes into the film and was an invention of Stover, as he was allowed by Lucas to alter things but only for the book. Not the film. The production staff and Stover did not have final say. Lucas did and he had always maintained the films come first. This is why Howard Rothman helped create the tiers for the books and comics, so that the fans would still buy these things and feel some vindication for having done so.
     
  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The films also never state that Anakin and Dexter Jettster aren't friends.

    Actually, Yoda and Obi-Wan get a significant amount of screen time together. Including Yoda teasing him in front of the younglings.

    This is false. Obi-Wan only finds out Anakin survived after seeing him on holo-recording, and Anakin only knows when he sees him on Mustafar. The novel confirms this.

    pg. 965
    Padme: "Obi-Wan. He said - he told me you turned to the dark side, that you murdered Jedi...even younglings..."
    Anakin: "Obi-Wan's alive?"