The Jedi Order. Happy with their potrayal?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Learner, May 30, 2003.

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  1. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    [Mon Mothma]And most important of all, where is it SUBTLE?!?[/Mon Mothma]
  2. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    One other thing I didn't like about the Jedi Order. There was nobody waiting for Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan or the Queen on the Courscant Platform. Don't they care that the Queen could of been killed or held as a hostage? Don't they want to make sure their companions are alright?
  3. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "Where do we see his genius? When has that been demonstrated in either film?"


    The entire films are a picture of his genius. Everything is going according to his plan, as he eloquently put it. In TPM he manipulates the TF, Amidala, Maul, the Senate, in AotC it's Padme, the Jedi, the Senate, Jar Jar, Anakin, and Dooku... Most of the events that happen on screen happen because he wanted them to happen.

  4. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    He's portrayed like a god pulling everyones strings in the PT.

    Plus, Lucas clumsily introed him so obviously in the very beginning of TPM, there was no subtlety at all.

    btw, Mace Windu has the worst lines in the entire saga.

  5. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I guess I don't understand why most people thought the Jedi would be so disorganized. If they are supposed to be a religion, then it wouldn't make sense. Notice how most every religion has some sort of authority that to some extents regulates the group. Even when your operating in independent cells, each cell has a leader. Its never just a bunch of "wandering cowboys, doing what they think is right." Nor would it make sense that way, because Force training requires special knowledge held by a select few, and saber making requires special, limited resources. Both of these encourage some sort of authority, to control this rare knowledge and information.

    On another note, what do you mean it disappoints you all Jedi aren't human? Shoulsn't you have been disappointed way back in ESB then? after, all Yoda's not exactly a human.
  6. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    You miss the point though Jabba-wocky. Some of us wanted to see how good the Jedi were, then see them fall.
    That way, when Luke restores the order at the tail end of Jedi, we will actually LIKE IT.

    As it's being portrayed now, I would rather have Luke throw himself down the shaft and say good-riddance to the Jedi once and for all.

    That's what I wanted to see, if just for the first film of the PT. Let everything go south after.

    Maybe they are unorganized at first and war, the clone wars, forces them to convene a council on Coruscant for the "extent of the emergency"?

    That way, Palps could then get them tangled up in politics leading to their downfall.
  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I think Palpatine had an easy task. The Jedi thought "disgruntled spice miners" were responsible for Padme's assasination attempt. It's not like Palpatine was dealing with the Universe's great intellects.
  8. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "It's not like Palpatine was dealing with the Universe's great intellects."

    I thought about that as soon as Mace Windu opened his mouth and finished that sentence in Attack of the Clones, but he could be working for the enemy! The traitor and spy! [face_shocked] 8-}
  9. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    It's not like Palpatine was dealing with the Universe's great intellects.


    Yeah, they make Chief Wiggum look like Batman.
  10. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I am happy with how they are portrayed!
  11. DarthOrion Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 1
    I also think a lot of it has to do with our perceptions of the jedi order as portrayed through Obi-Wan, Yoda and to a lesser extent Luke in the OT. So, when George goes back in time and actually shows us what the past really was there is an obvious confict. I had to admit I had a lot of preconceived notions about the past as well. But, I agree with what someone said here. the jedi do seem to organized, to "in the pocket of the republic" for me.

    I know George wants to show the exuberance and gluttony that existed in the old republic, but the mighty venerable jedi seem as guilty of coveting luxury as the senate. I mean they stay in a palatial temple for christ's sake.

    I guess I always imagined them being there own person, not watchdogs for the republic. I do understand the whole guardian of "peace and justice" thing. I guess basically I wanted more Qui-Gon types. Free Spirits.

    However, Maybe George is trying to show how when the ultimate instrument of peace and justice falls(the republic) so will it's guardians, the jedi. they're intermingled
  12. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I understood the desire to see how good they were the first time, ShaneP. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how this relates to having an organizational structure. As I said earlier, most all institutions and religions have some sort of structure, and to some large extent need one if they hope to be very effective.

    Further, I see the OT as pointing to a strucutred Jedi Council in the first place. For instance, Kenobi faults himself for trying to train Anakin without the help of Yoda. This suggests he avoided official/conventional channels of Jedi trianing. For these channels to exist, there must be structure. Further, the Jedi are supposed to be heroes of the Clone Wars. If a group operates as leaders of the military, there again must be strcuture. Or again, if the Jedi were an essential piece of the Republic (and as Palpatine claims, there corruption was a major problem that necessitated their extinction), then that would again imply structure.

    How do I explain the behavior of Kenobi and Yoda in the OT? They were the last of their kind and knew it, so they were only half-hearted practicioners that were really doing their own thign at that point. We see this commonly with dead religions. For instance, a modern-day Druid is not the same as the original priestly caste of the same name, despite the fact that the latter claims they've based themselves off the former.

    Finally, as for showing the Jedi as being to political, that has more to do with the story of the Phantom Menace than anything. After all, as a movie that involved primarily political intrigue, there was really nowhere the kind of cowboyish, Don Quixote Jedi being described here would make sense. So I guess I'm wondering: "What does organizational structure have to do with how good/bad something is?"
  13. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    I think Palpatine had an easy task. The Jedi thought "disgruntled spice miners" were responsible for Padme's assasination attempt. It's not like Palpatine was dealing with the Universe's great intellects.


    Ah, but you must remember that the Dark Side was clouding the Jedi's ability to sense the future and other events. Things which would normally be very easy to pick up on.
  14. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Oh, I'm not suggesting they be anarchists or anything, just a little more flexible in who calls the shots on descision-making.

    I understand the reasons for Lucas' determination to show the Jedi entangled in politics and everything, but a TRADE DISPUTE as an intro to this legendary order guarding the republic for over a thousand generations?

    Maybe for the second film, but I would've liked to watch more swashbuckling and delegated authority in the Jedi.

    The first film just could've introed them and showed them for the heroes they supposedly were.
    Then, when their downfall came, we could see why, yet see it as tragic.

    I just don't like the fact that the JC seems to decide on every little step they make in the first film of the saga.
    Give us a simple story of heroics, then, as Lucas himself has stated, have "the second act where everything gets complicated".

    Let the Clone Wars be the reason for their centralization of power. A "war council" if you will, like the American Indians.
  15. artemis_fowl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah. All the Jedi are just sitting round with no expressions. I wonder if they have any feelings for anyone or anything. It would have been better if thay like helped the slaves on Tatooine or something.
  16. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    The portrayal of the Jedi was pretty disappointing. Lucas talks a lot about designing each scene with color schemes, set designs etc. but that 'penthouse suite' environment for the Jedi was ridiculous.

    The Jedi are always talking about life, nature, spirituality etc. and we find them operating out of a tacky hotel room in Vegas!
    Where was the organic spirituality? The mystery? The beauty?
    It was so plastic.
    As were the Jedis themselves.

    When you imagined the Jedi (before 1999) was this anything like you imagined them?

    g
  17. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "When you imagined the Jedi (before 1999) was this anything like you imagined them?"

    I can answer that with a simple no.
  18. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    When you imagined the Jedi (before 1999) was this anything like you imagined them?

    Sometimes.

    I sort of thought of them like medieval knights -- they served the king (Republic), they'd go out on missions or be stationed places, but come back to the castle (Temple) before long.

    Organized more like an army.


    EDIT: I already posted this last month. Oops.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  19. flyingillini Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Qui-Gon is how I imagined the Jedi(prior to 1999) the council is not. However, the council is potrayed well in my opinion. By watching how overconfident and seemingly out of touch they are it's no surprise that they fail in stopping Palpatine and are destroyed.
  20. -Ace- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I think the Jedi's dulness was on purpose since they needed to be set up as an organization where Anakin could get angry at them. If the Jedi were all cool and friendly then there probably would be no reason for Anakin to fall.

    I'm not sure if I'm getting my message across, but it's early.

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