The Jedi problem: who are we fighting?

"Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force." -Palpatine/Darth Sidious

Is the Dark Lord of the Sith correct when he says this, even if it is perhaps for the wrong reasons? Or to put it this way, are the Jedi blind to many aspects of the force because they work so hard to avoid the dark side? Do they not even understand their foe?

Let's take a look at the facts of the situation:
1) Using the dark side, Palpatine is able to cloud the Jedi's vision, and they seem to have no way to counteract this technique.
2) The dark side allows for the release of many of the passion that the Jedi surpress. Was the Jedi code of conduct so dogmatic, as Palpatine says, that it was only a matter of time before the order was destroyed by their own inactivity?
3) The Sith have access to certain aspects of the force (most notably force lightning and force choke) that the Jedi do not. Not only that, they seem unprepared to deal with the techniques that the Sith employ in battle. Examples would include the statuesque (literally) trio headed up by Mace, Sidious' sudden lightning blast that knocks Yoda over, and the overwhelming display of force telekinesis by Sidious in the senate.
4) "I know there are things about the force that they're not telling me." Is it that the Jedi know more about the force than they're telling Anakin, or they simply DO NOT know about the ways of the Sith? Yoda knows the rule of the two, as does Mace, but the Jedi seem at a complete loss when it comes to the Sith. As Ki-Adi-Mundi says, "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium." and Mace adds, "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing."

It appears based on these facts that the Jedi do not have very much knowledge of the dark side or the Sith. They have neglected to study the ways of their sworn enemy, nay, the enemies of peace, and they pay dearly for their ignorance. The Jedi, in my opinion, would have been much better off if they had learned the ways of the Sith as well as the ways of the Jedi.

This is a huge problem in Episode III particularly. This is where all of their ignorance of the Sith cost them either their lives, or their friends and family. Once again Obi-Wan gets destroyed by Dooku. Anakin then taps into his hatred and beheads Dooku.
This time, Mace senses the destruction of the Jedi, but they can?t even see that Palpatine is the Sith! He has to tell them for goodness sake! In episode III we see Yoda get blasted by Sidious as if he?s never seen force lightning before. The Jedi?s failure to understand the Sith is integral to their undoing in ROTS. You must know your enemy. The Jedi simply don?t.

 

Hey Yosh


I think that's where the deliberate parallel mirroring of the two trilogies, even down to the very titles, comes into play.

In the Prequels, the jedi Order had outlived it's useful function. It was complacent, fat from excess, and no longer truly serving the public good for which it was intended.

In the Original, the Empire plays very much the same function.

So Balance to the Force is restoring the universe back to a state of natural harmony, leaving only Luke Skywalker left.

No Republics.
No Empires.
No Sith.
No Jedi.

Just normal , balanced people, since luke wasn't really technically a Jedi in the truest sense of the word, or if so, an evolved, new era Jedi.

 

that is the key. was it not Sun Tzu who said keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer.? The jedi needed to study up on the Sith the techniques, maybe even delve into the darkside here and then. Luke proved that once you go down the darkpath it will not forever bind you to it. Vader did as wel, although he was more consumed. I am going to bring EU into this and ironically, I wouldn't but this will make you laugh Yoshifett, but Mace defeats Sidious partly because of his vaapad technique which is close to the dark side. HAHA I had to say it!

 

The Jedi?s failure to understand the Sith is integral to their undoing in ROTS. You must know your enemy. The Jedi simply don?t.


Ill agree with that, especially since learning about those skills doesnt really go against anything else that Yoda was saying, ie fear, attachment etc.

 

I think it is one thing to know your opposition and another to become like them. I'm sure the Jedi had knowledge of the Sith and some of thier teachings they just didn't put them to use.

Dogma is always used to tempt others through out history. It is easy for one to become bored when they are set in thier ways and the new way can seem tempting simply because it is different or new.


I think the thing about the future and the Sith apparent ability to see it is the fact that how well CAN they see it? "Always in motion the future is." As long as a Jedi is focused on the "here and now" they will be okay when confronting thier opponent.

 

I find it interesting that the Jedi really don't learn anymore about the Sith between TPM and SITH. they are still completely blinded and at a loss to find them . like you said Palps has to practically come out and say " here i am "

 

Palps was right about the jedi being dogmatic, they are very much so in the prequels. They serve the republic unconditonally and believe that they are always, the republic in the right, even though in the end the were really serving Sidious. It is ironic that Kenobi tells Anakin that,"only a Sith deals in absolutes." When thats excatly what he and all the jedi did in the prequels.

 

nice topic. i agree, the jedi knew little about the dark side aside from its temptations.

 

As Yoda says in the novelization, there was more to learn. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters still had much to learn and that what they had assumed it was sufficent. They didn't realize that there were still untapped areas. Such as the ability to retain your identity and manifest as a corporeal ghost.

Actually, as I understand it, the Dark Side is doing it on it's own in response to the Dark Side growing stronger. The ability to mask themselves like in "Shadow Hunter", Chapter 6 and "The Cestus Deception" is more of a finely honed skill. Something a Jedi could do, I believe. But the Sith and Asajj Ventress were well versed in it.

A Jedi has no passion. They release it and think only compassionate thoughts. Giving into passion is what created the Sith in the first place. What really destroys the Jedi is that they failed to adapt. They didn't consider that they had to change, that they had to prepare for the possible return of the Sith. These things are what weakens the Jedi more. They also tried to keep the Republic going, having faith that it can be saved and was worth saving.

The situation with the Posse was that they had not expected the speed or ferocity of Sidious. This was due more to the extreme anger and hatred, as well as his deep connection to the Force. Only Mace Windu had a connection that was almost as deep, though certainly not above Palpatine. Yoda was also taken down the first time by the unexpected speed by which Palpatine moved to unleash his first volly. Sidious got lucky with the last blast as Yoda had just landed and was trying to prepare for the next attack. The telekentic prowness is again connected to his connection to the Force. Also, Yoda was at a disadvantage. Being several levels down and fighting against gravity. Yoda has to catch a falling object that a) weights quite a bit and b) is falling faster as it decends. The law of gravity dictates that. Yoda then has to build up the momentum to fling it back into the air.

Though it is true that Yoda struggles more with lifting heavy objects, whereas Sidious has an easier time. But then we rarely see Jedi lift something as heavy in the films.

Most of what the Jedi know about the Force concerns the deepest Dark Side teachings of the Sith. But it's the kind of thing that only certain Jedi Masters are allowed to even glimpse. Yoda, being the oldest and most

 

As far as the physical powers... yeah, they were definitely lacking knowledge of something, See: 3 Jedi who were wiped out in 2 second by Palps. But I still think their main problems grew from withing. Arrogance and complacency were rules rather than exceptions.

 

darth-sinister posted:

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yoshifett posted:Yoda knows the rule of the two, as does Mace, but the Jedi seem at a complete loss when it comes to the Sith. As Ki-Adi-Mundi says, "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium." and Mace adds, "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing."



That's because the Jedi had thought that they were all destroyed at the Battle of Russan. Between the joint Jedi/Republic forces and their own infighting, the Sith had apparently destroyed themselves. They never made sure that this was true. They arrogantly assumed it was over and that was that. Darth Bane was then able to adapt and thus we have the current situation. Had the Jedi remained open to the possibility, they probably wouldn't be so blind in TPM.

[hr]

This brings up another interesting point.
How could the Jedi Council believe that the Sith were extinct if there was a prophecy, that was yet to be fulfilled, that said a "Chosen One" would one day destroy the Sith. Wouldn't you think that after Anakin was brought before the council and was said to be the chosen one that maybe someone on the council would take a step back and say, "Whoa, I guess we over looked this little factoid."

 

Hey Yoshi, nice post.

I tend to think that the 'Balance' is not entirely the destruction of the Sith in and of itself, but rather the harmony of two opposing poles. Not that the Sith and Jedi are equal in their respective vices and virtues.

Throughout the OT, Luke is shown to be a very passionate person - however, in the end he recognises the point of no return. He looks into the Abyss (having recognised it's there at all), steps back, and throws down his weapon after defeating Vader.

Sidious is only destroyed in the end because Anakin's passion/compassion is brought back to the fore by Luke - without the love of Luke, Vader would never have been vanquished.

An earlier poster posited (sorry, too lazy to check) that Luke was an 'evolved' Jedi - and I would agree with that. A Jedi without a moldy code which emotionally removes the Jedi from the population they are supposed to serve and protect. I think that the Jedi's edict against attachment has good intentions but ultimately played a part in their undoing.

 

But with the history of the Sith, it's understandable that the Jedi became so wary of the DS that they avoided it completely. Learning the skills of the DS and the Sith is very hard to do without making the DS your master. Luke had two extraordinary mentors, great foster parents, and was the son of the most powerful Jedi ever. Those factors, INO, helped him avoid the lure of the DS.

 

Well the Prophecy says that the Chosen One will "bring balance to the Force", it's only later that they interpret that to mean "destroy the Sith." As far as we know this Prophecy was on the books for thousands of years, passing into legend status. The Council seems rather surprised that there could be an actual Chosen One when Qui-Gon brings it up. And really by the end of TPM they know the Sith are back, and are gradually sensing the imbalance of the Force, and are putting two and two together.

 

I think the Jedi don't like to dabble in the DS, b/c how far is
going too far. We see Luke's pivotal moment when he is seething
mad at Vader and his anger aids him in over-powering his Father.
Would he have crossed a line of no return if it wasn't for the
cutting off of the hand which told Luke he is more like his
Father than he realizes [definitely a symbolic moment].
I think the quick route to power is just too tempting and only
the most experienced Jedi, such as Yoda/Mace, can handle getting
that close to the flame without getting burned.

 

-The Jedi Council weren't even remotely sure if Anakin was the Chosen One or not. That's why they always say "if" and "is he not". They don't know for sure. All that they know is that he's a strong Force user who could be a great Jedi or a great danger. He may or may not be the Chosen One of prophecy.

-The Jedi had grown to feel that the prophecy was just a prediction and one that would probably not come true. Something they didn't put a lot of stock in until it came to bite them on the ass.

-They are so confident that they'd know if the Sith were back, that they didn't know that they never really went away. And it takes the death of Qui-gon Jinn to prove that the Sith are back. And it takes Anakin destroying the Federation ship, guided by the Force, to convince them that he could be the Chosen One.

The arrogance in not believing the prophecy, that the Sith could return and not preparing for it in advance, is what hurt them.

 

Thanks Jawa. However, I have to disagree with you on the balance issue. It'd like to think of it as a harmony of the two opposing poles of the force, but that's not what GL says. He says that Balance, in terms of the force, requires that their are no Sith manipulating it in an unnatural manner. The Sith destroy the balance simply by existing. If there are no Sith, then the force is balanced. It is the only way.

 

Hey Yoshi... Right - I agree with that. However, I guess what I'm saying is that it appears to me that the Jedi had become cold and aloof - by refusing to form 'attachments' they subsequently lost their compassion, despite all protestations to the contrary. Their good acts as such were selfless, sort of, but more bound by duty than real caring.

This is what Anakin rebels against largely, even while he appreciates the Jedi ideals and why they are in place. In Luke there seems to be a better synthesis of selflessness and compassion than any of the Jedi of the PT. Case in point (which has probably been discussed), why leave Shmi to languish as a slave on Tatooine?

The Sith are almost like the opposite extreme of emotion to the Jedi - which is why I think that in a way, the Balance is not simply achieved via the destruction of the Sith - but also because the Jedi who survive the greater confrontation are able to come away with a better appreciation of compassion.

 

Ah, I see what you're saying.

In a sense, then, Luke is the epitome of this way of thinking.

 

Absolutely this is a great topic!

I agree with previous sentiments about the Jedi becoming complacent. As with many religions/orgs that become the Establishment, they can become fat and complacent, arrogant, full of rigid dogma and cliques - who knows, corrupt even?
After all, for all their endeavours to control their emotions and such, the jedi were...well, not all human...but certainly mortal and so flawed - no matter how great individuals may have been.

I think the strongest Jedi's were ones who had confronted and assimilated their own dark sides - it's important to know your weaknesses so that others can't exploit them.

I reckon the Jedi's demise was on the cards. Life is full of cycles, nothing stays the same.

Who knows, maybe the Force had become pissed off with the Jedi and thought it was time for a change and a new way, eventually lead by Luke who was not trained in the traditional way that Jedi had been (ie, he started as an adult).

 

Research the Dark Side, practice the Light Side. That sort of thing?

 

Abso-bleedin-lutely! Knowledge is power, is it not?

 

Why not?

 

But with the history of the Sith, it's understandable that the Jedi became so wary of the DS that they avoided it completely. Learning the skills of the DS and the Sith is very hard to do without making the DS your master.

Maybe, but since they dont even try, they may not know for sure. Maybe the Dark Side skills listing was like the phopesy that was misread.

 

Compassion is the by product of caring for others. Attachment is caring about yourself. I don't know how caring for yourself is more important than caring for others. Lucas defines attachment as being unable to let go of those you care for. They become possessions. Attachment is also connected to the way things are ideally, versus the reality that life changes.

Jedi have relationships. Obi-wan's friends with Dex and Padme. Qui-gon befriends Jar Jar and Anakin. Anakin was friends with Palpatine, Artoo, Threepio and Jar Jar. They also befriend each other. Yoda to Mace. Mace to the Posse members. Obi-wan to Anakin. Qui-gon to Obi-wan. Dooku to Qui-gon. Dooku to Sifo-Dyas.

The difference is that they aren't attached to a person. Or at least, they shouldn't be attached to them. Obi-wan is sad to see Padme die, but he doesn't rally the forces of heaven and hell to keep her alive. Obi-wan didn't want Qui-gon to die, but came to accept that it's a natrual part of life. Yoda accepted the deaths of every Jedi in ROTS. They didn't sell their souls for power. And that is where attachment is. Because power is the only way to obtain control. Control over people. Control over fate. Control over everything.

Because they cannot free her. They do not have the means to free her. Nor the jurisdiction to go around freely slaves. Shmi was content to stay behind. Qui-gon never mentioned it to them. Nor did Obi-wan or Anakin. Besides, she was freed in five years. So she didn't languish.

Unfortunately, Luke was not as selfless or compassionate. He wanted to control the fate of his friends. He wanted to defy common sense and rationality. And nearly paid a price for it.

The Jedi appreciate compassion. They just aren't ruled by their emotions.