Full Series The Jedi: Superheroes?

Well hate allows quicker use of entire "Force pool" but it requires longer time to recover- Ventress was very tired after that masschoke- and she passed out as soon as she landed on Dathomir.......

In think there is no gaps like Windrider claimed- IMO powerlevel goes like this:

allmighty--------------------Right amount of power for the jedi--------------------completely powerless

balance guys balance

 

Rarely have I seen so many things on a single page I disagree with. It's just too discouraging to reply to all of it, so instead I won't be replying to anything at all.

 

Don't be like that-there are representatives from all sides on that page so your post leaves your opinion tantalizingly unclear. If this was a ploy to make what you have to say more interesting, consider me duped.

 

Well, there's a few ways to look at this. First of all, the ones with the most impressive feats are those with a mastery of the force. Yoda in TCW lifting the two droid ships (albeit with difficulty), Yoda in CW taking on basically a whole army was also pretty believable especially when it showed he was still vulnerable if distracted.

And I think we could argue that's the case for many of these issues. When a jedi is completely focused and has no distractions, they are at their best. Yoda struggled with the two TF ships in TCW because the battle was going on around him. He struggled in AOTC because Obi-Wan and Anakin were unable to help themselves. Plus, he'd poured a lot of energy into his Battle with Dooku. In TCW, Mace is all alone against those droids. They are all in his line of sight as well. Few surprises. In Geonosis, it's absolute chaos. He's there to protect a Senator. It's not just mindless droids, it's also living Geonosians, Destroyer droids, arena animals and his fellow jedi that can get in the way. Plus Dooku was a potential threat. Kit Fisto leads an assault underwater. Plo Koon fights in Space. And he's able to control not only himself from floating off, but also guide his clones and float them back. Granted, that was only a handful of droids, but still impressive.

A large part of it could be "Your overconfidence is you weakness" The times when jedi were mostly taken out was when they were overconfident. Mace thought he had Anakin by his side and Palpatine was beaten. Anakin surprised him. The jedi in Order 66 never suspected their clones would turn on them. Dooku certainly didn't expect a bunch of drunken pirates to get the drop on him. And Obi-Wan and Anakin thought they were so clever switching the drugged drinks. Heck, Anakin thought he could beat Obi-Wan despite losing the high ground and Obi-Wan's focus and skill won out.

Now granted, it's a real stretch to believe Mace could take on hundreds of droids and not get shot or wounded. That's why the official canon is that it's a story the kid described. But everything else we've seen seems doable based on what we know about the jedi. It's just dependent on their mastery of the force, focus and their power level. Hence why we have Starkiller and Luke and Anakin and Yoda performing amazing feats while other jedi perform impressive but not over the top feats.

As to the original question, I'd say Plo Koon's space fight and Yoda's battle in ambush set a good baseline for where powerful Jedi Masters should fall, where other jedi such as Aayla and Luminara show skilled but less powerful actions. And that seems believable to me. It's been established that not all jedi have the same power level. Lucas made that clear when he introduced the midichlorians and said Anakin had more than Yoda and that Qui-Gon stated no jedi had that amount. So right away, we knew Yoda was the h

 

The problem with having each and every Jedi NOT performing superhuman feats and NOT trashing entire armies singlehandedly is that it makes the reasons for the purge seem shallow. Getting rid of seven thousand redshirts seems like a waste of time. Getting rid of seven thousand godlike engines of destruction seems like good sense. Also, for a series built around Jedi being awesome, making Jedi not awesome is just kind of stupid.

 

FalorWindRider often makes good points.

 

Here we can see WW2 parallel- Why nazis killed jews- it didn't have any more sense- jedi are like jews to imperial nazis- they are hated and someone to blame from every problem Republic had- Palpatine revealed their "conspiracy to overthrow the republic"- i think it was generally accepted view that jedi arranged the Clone War to take over the Republic- after all Dooku was once a jedi too- so reason for jedi purge was not purely reasonable it also simply executing scapegoats- also those goats had powers that made them superior to normal soldiers- that's more than enough for legends to be born- they don't have to be gods of destruction to be dangerous- plus their powers are exaggerated when stories of them are told..... i don't see any problem....

 

Err, except that there is an implied practical necessity to the Purge. The Jedi ARE in many cases able to trash enemy forces and beat foes within an inch of their life without breaking a sweat. The problem is that the power of the Jedi is proportional to the amount of effort George Lucas wants to put into writing a coherent story. Basing it off of the Holocaust is stupid for one reason: the Jews were a minority group that had no clear organization and did not have the combat ability of scores of individuals combined. The Jedi (inconsistently) do. They are a military order more similar to the Knights Templar, Praetorian Guard, Knights Hospitaller, etc. than random Jewish groups. Ergo, the Emperor would have a greater military need to get rid of them, outside of purely propaganda. And I would daresay that their abilities are decidedly NOT exaggerated if 10,000 of them managed to keep the peace in a galaxy of thousands of trillions.

 

I don't agree. Giving the Jedi TFU power levels now will make Order 66 look really unbelievable. There's a reason only Yoda can sense the attempt on his life. They're not automatically red-shirts when they're not all über-powerful. The Jedi have super-powers, sure, but I like the fact that they can be bested or outnumbered.

Which is why I loved Dooku getting captured.

 

I'm a proponent of making Jedi and Sith incredibly powerful. Not invincible, not infallible, but far more potent than the non-Force sensitive or a group of non-Force sensitives.

Citing Fett vs. Kenobi isn't accurate IMHO: Kenobi was under orders to capture, not kill, and Fett only managed to hold his own thanks to guile, a killer's instinct, a wide arsenal of weaponry, and his son firing a starship's blaster cannons.

In a straight up fight, Kenobi would have effortlessly massacred Fett -- the supposed "deadliest man in the galaxy." The movie made that very clear.

Should Jedi and Sith be able to annihilate vast armies? Hell no. Sufficient numbers should be enough to overwhelm Jedi, which isn't a problem when you consider that the CIS supposedly possesses droids that number in the quadrillions.

Even if you made Jedi "superheroes", all ten thousand of them would still be in grave danger in the Clone War.

 

Dooku getting captured by an army, or by ten or so Jedi all attacking him at the same time, beating him into submission and within an inch of his life would be believable. Dooku getting captured by roughly twelve pirate nobodies? Less so.

And yes, they are redshirts. How fast do those Order 66 Jedi die? I counted 7 seconds for Ki-Adi, and that was on the generous end.

It seems the TCW fandom has a strange obsession with lauding every attempt to make the Jedi worthless characters. Order 66 should have been altered to fit badass characters, not turn characters into redshirts so that Order 66 can be simple.

And yes, there are only two states: badass and redshirt. If you are not a badass, you might as well start digging your own grave and bury yourself.

 

Yes but those groups didn't have godlike powers either- still King of France thought Knights of the Templar are dangerous and ordered "purge" much like jedi purge- i was just saying "purges" may not be reasonable sometimes they are killing of scapegoats- and while jedi tried to keep the peace in entire galaxy they didn't succeed very well or how there is war going on right now as seen in TCW?.....

 

Yes but the King of France also didn't have superpowers, which the Sith do. The King of France did it because he wanted the Templar's money. It was about money.

I also don't think you can say the Jedi didn't succeed very well, they apparently succeeded quite well for thousands of years and it took at least hundreds of years of planning in secret by the Sith(whom the Jedi believed had been wiped out) to manage to set up their downfall.

It could also be said that the corruption of other people was just as responsible for the war. The Jedi didn't cause all those other people to become corrupted and 10 or 20 thousand Jedi(imagining that there would be fluctuations in the numbers throughout the centuries, baby booms and busts just like we have) are not going to be able to keep what would likely amount to millions of corrupt people in a Republic of hundreds of billions of citizens in line forever.

To me the Jedi are by far the victims here - no they weren't perfect but they were overall good people who were self-sacrificing and did their best to try and serve the good of other people. They weren't at fault for the Republic's demise, they just couldn't stop it from happening in the end.

This is true. It took a lot for Fett to get away from Obi-Wan.

Yeah I agree with this. I mean I wouldn't want them too overpowered(like I don't need to see them singlehandedly trashing whole armies but certainly doing more than do now) but I do think the Jedi should just be well...awesomer(personally I think Obi-Wan in particular should be allowed to be more awesome LOL). Just because the Jedi ultimately lost, doesn't mean they still wouldn't be absolutely amazing - they shouldn't have lost because they were bad fighters but because they were betrayed.

And the thing is that IS why they lost. They lost because they were betrayed, so showing them to be amazing beforehand, during this Clone War series, if anything would have made that betrayal even more powerful. A betrayal can cut down even the most powerful, it's not like betrayals only happen to those who are weak.

 

It's possible that Dantooine has something that makes him more powerful than he really is. Maybe the air or the gravity has an effect on humans, especially ones gifted with the Force.

 

This actually makes these things more comparable- existing superpowers neutralise each other now

but yes king's motive was money Palpy's motive was revenge- what i was saying is that killing all the jedi away is working also as ultimate revenge it doesn't mean they would need to be invincible superheroes to be purged- idealistic groups etc. can also be dangerous- was Osama Bin Laden supervillain? Sometimes elimination of "dangerous" enemies can mean elimination of physically harmless even weak guys but idealistically dangerous still...

 

I approve of this comparison, well done Swash

Uh...how about no.

 

Thank you (We need that bowing smilie )

There is many examples in real history that some authority wants certain groups of people or certain persons "hunted down and defeated" and yet (as far as I know) it is not because of their supernatural talents or actual strength on the battlefield- jedi purge would make sense even as totally idealistic/religious persecution- even if jedi would be totally normal persons with no superpowers whatsoever- but since they do (even a little bit) it just adds the believability of the purge and there is no need for unstoppable überwarriors but group of slightly better that normal warriors in idealistically/politically strong group like jedi order is enough to make purge believable.....

Planet working as amplifier of the Force... come on that's ridiculous .... ummm... wait a minute Well Dantooine has those forcesensitive crystals in KOTOR so not totally bad idea- but i don't like it much either

 

Hm, a Hutt Jedi...

 

I wanna see a huttjedi in TCW .... why not? - you speciesists!
(Hutt-jedi portrays a Forcejump) Grievous: Nooooooooo!!! (and poor general is squished under the hutt )

Force storm?! standard EU-cr*p IMO

 

Hey man, Force Storm was a literal blast in KOTOR.

 

Well yeah i accept it as nickname for strong lightning attack but it sounds like it has totally different meaning in some eu...