Characters The Jedi Way - Jedi Discussion Thread - Jedi and the Force in The Clone Wars

This is something I've been wondering.......does turning to the Dark Side of the Force fundamentally alter a person, especially how they are perceived by other Force-sensitives?

Yoda and Ben Kenobi were 100% positive that Vader was un-redeemable. They were convinced that the change to Dark Lord of the Sith was permanent and irreversible. Of course, we know that this isn't true, but why were they so certain?

- Sith traditionally take another name; is this more than just ceremony? Is there a fundamental change in their perspective guided by the Dark Side?

- Is turning to the Dark Side like a cascade event that overwhelms the personality of the person turning?

- To a Jedi observer, would a person turning to the Dark Side be transformed, like Jekyl and Hyde?

Luke's big discovery was that a Sith could be turned to the Light Side - or at least Vader could be. To a Sith observer, would that transformation be just as dramatic as going the other way?

 

Yoda and Ben Kenobi were 100% positive that Vader was un-redeemable. They were convinced that the change to Dark Lord of the Sith was permanent and irreversible. Of course, we know that this isn't true, but why were they so certain?

Obi-Wan sure had his doubts. You can see him teary eyed on Mustafar picking up Anakin's lightsaber and hurrying away to save Padme and the future. He was just guiding Luke hinting at the truth and in the end he could see that Anakin was the chosen one.


- Is turning to the Dark Side like a cascade event that overwhelms the personality of the person turning?
It sure did overwhelm Anakin, hiding that small spark of light until an event like seeing Obi-Wan disappear, leaving his lightsaber behind, or Luke not wanting to join him ignited that.
- To a Jedi observer, would a person turning to the Dark Side be transformed, like Jekyl and Hyde?
They would be clouded in the Force. Yoda and the Jedi didn't detect Palpatine being a Sith.

 

That being said, I can't imagine Palpatine/Sidious not having anything to do with that. He had a thousand years of Sith teachings behind him, so the idea that he had a technique to hide his presence from other Force users isn't impossible.

 

On Mustafar, Obi-Wan was so upset about, well, everything it seems like he was caught up in the whole tragedy of it it all and not thinking about whether Anakin still had any Light in him.

Palpatine is an interesting case since I assume that he was already a Sith before he met any Jedi, and he was operating stealthily as well (I certainly think that we was a Sith long before he even became a Senator). So, I assume that either Light or Dark affinity is not obvious unless that person openly uses it. But for someone who is known, like Anakin, a switch from Light Side to the Dark Side might be hugely obvious because the difference could be seen.

Related to that, I wonder how obvious Dooku was about being a Sith. When Dooku captured Obi-Wan on Genosis, Obi-Wan would not have anything to do with Dooku. I wonder if his darkness was obvious? Obi-Wan hadn't met him before, but he had been a Jedi and Obi-Wan could compare him to other Jedi. I think Dooku never bothered trying to hide that he used the Dark Side at all.

 

I think it would be. In either case, it requires a total transformation of your mental state, belief system, and morality. Redemption is a big, big deal, and it's a continual process. You can't just decide "I'm going to be light side now" It takes a lot of thought, a lot of fighting temptation, a lot of making the right choices for the right reasons. For that matter, you can't just decide to "be evil" either. Turning dark is a slippery slope, and everything that made up the good person you used to be is still there. I think the Sith bury that part of themselves in order to survive. In this way, the Dark Side does corrupt the soul, but no one is ever to far gone to come back if they really, really want to.

 

I'm no expert on Sith 101, but to answer your question:

1. I suppose that the Sith who take the name " Darth ( Insert name here)" do so depending on their nature or how they operate. Palpatine is named Sidious because Insidous basically means to work behindthe shadows, and that's exactly what e does. Dessel was named Bane because he causes ruin and woe to the Brotherhood of Darkness.

 

I agree, but I also think that the Old Republic Jedi just didn't know that. Both Obi-Wan and especially Yoda (and the rest of the Order) were sure that going to the Dark Side meant that the Light Side of that person was permanently destroyed or 'dead'. It was Luke who changed that belief by proving that it was wrong.

OTOH, I have a lot of trouble figuring out how anyone could turn Sidious away from the Dark Side. That character was so evil he could not be over-acted.

About Sith taking names.....from what happened in ROTS, it looked like Sith masters assign their new apprentices their names, but I haven't read any of the EU books about Sith. In the Clone Wars series, Ventress is desperate to be a Sith, but she has to wait on Dooku to take her as an apprentice. Dooku seems to enjoy stringing her along and I have a feeling he really doesn't think she's worthy, but she's still useful. I assume that there are things about being a Sith that just can't be self-taught.

 

Is there some sort of set time of ow long a Padawan has to train in order to be considered ready to face the trials? For Anakin ad Obi-Wan, they both spent the same amount of time as Padawans ( Disregarding Obi-Wan's upbringing in the Jedi Order, just his apprenticeship.) That amounts to roughly 11-13 years. So what about Padawans of a species such as Yoda's, or Wookiees, do they spend decades training?

 

I think it should depend on what the Jedi Knight is becoming. Not all Padawans become Knights. Some are archivists, healers, technicians, cooks and doing the tasks a large community like the Jeditemple needs (it's a large village)
And on the time a species reaches adulthood.

 

But are the archivists, healers and technicians Knights? I don't know why they couldn't be if they complete their training. Do all knights go out on missions?

The training period is highly variable. It can depend on the temperments of the padawan, the master, the species of either, the missions they're sent on, etc. I think that Lucas said that he thought that masters adopt their padawans at age 8 or 9. The JA books give a maximum age of 13.

I assume for my fics that for Kighthood, the padawan must:

- have reached adult maturity for his/her species, physically and mentally
- have satisfied the Master's training requirements
- be trained for a minimum of 10 years

Obi-Wan was knighted when he was 25, which I assume is typical for Jedi. And even if he hadn't killed a Sith, Qui-Gon did say that he was ready.

 

I believe that the title of Knight is just that. A rank that says that the student has ascended beyond apprenticeship and is now able to take missions on by themselves and continue their training on their own. They would also be able to pursue their own interests as well. Honing special skills or following specific hobbies or passions. If they are fascinated by a particular culture they might become a specialist for that planet or region and might be called upon frequently to deal with issues amidst that area. Each Jedi is different and their journey from initiate to Knight will be specific to them as we all grow and do things differently in our own world. Each of us learns and understands things in our own time which may be similar to others around us but never the same.

I do agree that generally speaking that the Padawan timeframe generally falls between 10-15 years. With exceptions based upon need, experience and circumstances. (Yaddle was a Padawan for over 100 years because she was imprisoned for a century before she could truly earn the rank of Knight.) And if I recall correctly some Padawans were knighted a little early during the war because of their Master's dying and/or the need for more Generals in the Republic Army. (but I'm not certain and can't think of an example off hand.)

I asked my husband what he thought and he mentioned that in KotOR there are 3 alternate titles given to Jedi Knights as well: Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, and Jedi Sentinal. These are more catagories than titles I find, but they do mention some of the specialties each group has. It's kind of interesting.

Now, what I want to know is where "Soul Healers" come into the picture. I see mention of them frequently in fics (myself included) but are they only a fan driven class or is there some validity to the concept? I see nothing of this grouping on Wookiepedia. It seems that this is a fan made subsect that we have come to accept.

 

I would guess that healers and technicians are Knights. Here's how I see it. Whenever the Padawan reaches Knight status, he/she are evaulated. If they are proficient in flying Starfighters and are exceptional pilots, they become Fighter Aces. If they are able to adapt to pretty much any lightsaber form, then they might become Lightsaber Instructors. Basically, every Jedi has at least one secondary role to fill within the Order..

 

I, too, think that 'soul-healer' is a fan-construct. I don't know of any official source that uses them, but I haven't read a lot of EU stuff, so I couldn't be sure. I know 'healers' turn up in the books, so 'soul-healer' is a natural extrapolation of that for psychologist or mental-health therapist. With all the trauma Jedi can be exposed to it makes no sense to me for them not to have any specialists like that. Unlike the medical droids in the movies, I don't think they'd use droids for any of the mind troubles.

 

I agree. Considering how early children are exposed to such horrors such as war, famine and outright murder when on those hard missions, how could they not have some group that specializes in Mental Health. And the bonds that Jedi forge between each other can have beneficial and adverse effects depending on the strength of that connection. What happens when a Master dies and that bond is severed? It must hurt to lose something like that so suddenly. And I can't imagine droids discussing the problems of creatures to help solve their issues.

I was just double checking. Thanks!

 

But you would think thst the Jedi would have a few of their own trained in that kind of field, especially during the clone wars, where we see living sentient clones die in each and every battle, Jedi dropping like flies..That would put a lot of stress on a Jedi.

 

Jedi being the selfless, no-possession-allowed, warrior-monk types, a paycheck may seem out of place. But they clearly carry and use currency for missions since Qui-Gon had at least 20,000 Republic dataries on him in TPM. But if a Jedi just goes outside the Temple for a bit to eat with the Padawan what do they do to pay for the food, transportation, whatever? Coruscant probably isn't cheap.

I've sort of settled on a couple of options:

- Jedi are given a minimal stipend for such occasions, probably with a currency-card to spend it (I guess all currency is handled that way in the Old Republic). It's probably never used up for each pay-period and Jedi would accumulate large accounts over time.

- Jedi are automatically given whatever they buy for free on Coruscant and the government is billed. I suppose they would have to flash their IDs for that and the procedure would be the same as if they paid with a currency card anyway. For anything off of Coruscant, they'd just be issued a currency card like what Qui-Gon had in TPM.

 

Supposedly the Jedi are affiliated with the judiciary, so I think it likely they are issued a "electronic card" that taps into a certain monetary fund with discretionary spending under a certain amount (credit line?) and approved for larger amounts (when on missions, etc.).

 

That makes sense. I think that the Old Republic government covers the Jedi somehow. I suppose that Jedi have some kind of ID if people ask and this could serve as their all-purpose charge card that would work anywhere on Coruscant. I suppose, if a Jedi needed to, the charge card could be seriously abused before the accounts caught up, but Jedi would never do that.

Did Obi-Wan pay for his drink at the bar in ATOC I wonder? He could have since the camera cuts away to the action while he's getting his drink.

 

I always imagined if that a Jedi who gets an undercover job would get extra money for that. For example, if a Jedi had to play Kindergarten Cop, he would keep whatever the school district paid him.

 

I think I read somewhere that the Jedi Order sometimes got (large) contributions from grateful people they helped.

 

I don't think Jedi would get paid for the duties, but everything would be provided for...
It would be nice if they had some money to spend on what they want, but would that go against the "no possession" rule as they would own something or want more...

But how does the Order get money, apart from donations from people, which you can't rely on ?

 

I'm pretty sure the Jedi are given funds to cover whatever mission they are about to do, although I wonder do they get charged with damages they cause, like Anakin in the Battle of Coruscant..

 

Since the Jedi serve the Republic, I've always assumed that they are funded by the Galactic Senate. That was one way that Palpatine drew them in for the Clone Wars. I'm sure their resources were unlimited.

Since Jedi are forbidden possessions, I presume that they are not allowed to buy things for themselves. But just to go out and meet people on Coruscant they should have a way to pay for dinner or the taxi. A special credit card? I presume that there are also plenty of people like Dex who will give Jedi things to eat and drink for free. I wonder if Jedi are asked to account for their expenses if they go beyond a set amount, just to satisfy the Senate?

I presume that Jedi are allowed to cause havoc and destroy things as needed for their duties with no penalties. At least in the Republic and especially on Coruscant. Remember how Anakin shut down an inquiries in the bar in AOTC when he said 'Jedi business'? They must have some kind of legal protection in return for their service, otherwise the Jedi Order would be buried in lawsuits.