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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Jedi's Knowledge of Events Prior to Order 66

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by The Shadow Collective, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Would Tyranus tell Jango that? It makes sense if Jango knows as little as he's pretending to.
     
  2. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    More holes than Swiss.
     
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  3. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    Is that supposed to explain why Tyranus would think it's a good idea to tell Jango he's a Sith?
     
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  4. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    This was always just my assumption, but I figured that Jango had never met Sifo-Dyas and didn't want to be caught in a lie by saying "oh, yeah, I know Sifo-Dyas" only for Obi-Wan to ask more questions and have it made obvious that Jango didn't.

    I figured it was easier to just say that he had never heard of him (which could have been true) and instead mention Tyranus.

    But also given the Clark Kent affect that hoods have in the Star Wars Galaxy and as well as how we see Tyranus contact the Kaminoans in TCW, it's possible that Jango was contacted by Dooku (with hood) via hologram and didn't even know that Dooku was Tyranus or that Tyranus was a Sith Lord.

    He might think he's merely got the best of both worlds: a Jedi named Tyranus hiring him to provide his genetic template for an army in exchange for a "considerable" fee, plus he gets a kid version of himself out of it...

    While an ex-Jedi named Dooku is hiring him to kill Padme for Nute Gunray, but also "coincidentally" (from Jango's POV) with the added bonus of eliminating political opposition to his army, which then might lead to even more business with the Kaminoans.

    And he was careful to hire Zam. So her failure to kill Padme was likely not expected, and Jango probably wasn't expecting her to get caught or expecting to get tracked to Kamino. By subcontracting another bounty hunter, he could have kept his involvement in the assassination of Padme a secret, and so that would not have jeopardized his business with the Kaminoans, which could have made him very wealthy.
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Open Seasons comic has Jango meet Dooku, face to face, no hood.

    Dooku even tells him the army will be used against the Jedi - that's one of the things that convinced him to sign up for the plan.
     
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  6. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Not to mention he openly contacts him as Tyranus, face unobscured, to hire him in the first place.
    "Greetings, Jango Fett. I am Tyranus. I have a proposition for you: you are one of a select few chosen to participate in a special hunt, for a special prey. If you succeed, your reward will be in the amount of five million Republic credits."
    [​IMG]
     
  7. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    In light of what happens In TCW, and how Filoni says the Sith like having buffers between themselves and their actions, this is one EU event that makes more sense falling to the wayside IMO.
     
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  8. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    I love some Star Wars comic books and I'm playing Bounty Hunter for the first time right now and really enjoying it, but those sources aren't at the same level as TCW and Ep. II.
     
  9. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    It didn't go unmentioned because when Anakin informed Mace that Palpatine is Darth Sidious, Mace suggests that "their worst fears have been realized", as if to say that that the Jedi now know that the real villain behind the Sith plot has been right in front of them the whole time being the leader of the republic. Even worse, they also know that PalpSidious could command the clone army to kill all the Jedi at anytime which is why Mace brought 3 Jedi with him to arrest PalpSidious before he could initiate Order 66. Unfortunately due to Anakin's betrayal, Mace fails to stop PalpSidious which led to the Order 66 massacre.

    There are several reasons why the other Jedi looked shocked and unprepared. 1) They don't have the same heightened force sensitivity as Yoda does so they have no way of sensing if something is wrong. 2) They had nobody to warn them about Palpatine being Darth Sidious. The only Jedi who knew this information are either dead or has become PalpSidious's new apprentice so they were all doomed. And 3) They were too preoccupied with fighting battle droids to notice that their clone troops were turning against them just like we see in the 1st episode of the final season of TCW.
     
  10. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    But it wasn't something they feared, it was something they found out for sure.
     
  11. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Right, reason 1 is what I assumed from watching ROTS anyway, so that stands. Reason 2 could make sense, but if they've had enough of this put together by the end of this arc, it seems like they'd have enough time before the end of ROTS to discuss it more amongst the Jedi council and make sure everyone was aware of the potential risk. And reason 3 is also pretty much supported by what we see in ROTS too. It just seems like reason 2 being introduced by TCW is a pretty big deal to overlook, even with the others being there too.
     
  12. Arrian

    Arrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Agreed.
    [​IMG]

    Seriously, they easily could have put it together.
    I'm removing this arc from my head canon, because it just does not mesh with the films, at all.
     
  13. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 3, 2012
    They have got hard science data, a rant from a clone trooper, dooku's speech, proof he ordered the clones and yoda's vision. They got more then enough evidence to solve this mystery or at least be better prepared
     
  14. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I think it makes the execution of Dooku awkward.

    1. If the Jedi just thought that the conflict was merely a secession crisis, and Dooku has instigated this, and Anakin kills Dooku out of revenge (and encouraged by Palpatine), well then OK. It would also explain why the Jedi don't really care. As far as they're concerned, they have pretty much won the war.

    2 If you include the knowledge learned in TCW, then we know that Dooku ordered the clone army, he's not the Sith Master, and there's the lingering question as to why Dooku would give his enemies an army to even give them a shot at winning the war?

    There were so many questions the Jedi needed answers to that they could never get because Anakin killed Dooku.

    In case number one, the Jedi don't really have questions, it's pretty straight forward. Dooku created a crisis to try and conquer the Republic, Sifo-Dyas had the foresight to order an army in secret, the Jedi use this army having no reason to believe that it would turn on them, and were optimistic by the time of ROTS (at least until Mace senses the plot begin to realize that the Dark Side surrounds Palpatine).

    In case number two, this plot was already known, so Mace just looks like an idiot. They know there's more to it than The Clone Wars, they know that there is a Sith Lord that has likely infiltrated the Senate, and Yoda sees a future in which the clones will be sent against the Jedi. I would think that the Jedi would be FURIOUS at Anakin for killing Dooku. "Why the **** did you do that? Now, we may not discover who the Sith Lord is in time!"

    Instead Obi-Wan couldn't be more proud of Anakin's performance on the Invisible Hand, and this just seems inconsistent to me, when you add in what the Jedi have learned from the bonus content. That capturing Dooku alive should have been the utmost priority, and that failure to do so could doom the Jedi.
     
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  15. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Yeah, I think I'm starting to let all this logic downgrade my assessment of this arc. At first I really liked it despite not agreeing with how it said Order 66 itself would work (chip and mind control response vs. "the time has come" and following orders without question). But beyond that I was willing to accept the rest. But I'm really coming around to the fact that there were other problems outside of that that also didn't jive with the movies, and they're all related to the whole subplot about the Jedi learning too much too soon. It doesn't work.

    So now, as was too often the case with TCW, it's become another arc that looks cool and is fun to watch, but is probably better not taken too seriously (as in, don't try to make it mesh with the movies).
     
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  16. The Shadow Collective

    The Shadow Collective Jedi Knight star 1

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    Mar 21, 2013

    But they are expected to mesh with the movies, The Clone Wars is official canon, my only assumption would be that since they originally had another two and a half seasons planned, they may have elaborated on this plot hole a bit more, but now we are left with a gap inbetween the bonus content and Episode 3 which creates continuity problems.
     
  17. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    But there's one mystery the Jedi haven't solved and it's who the hell Darth Sidious is. They haven't seen his face or met him in person and it's unfortunate that in ROTS, the Jedi didn't get the chance to solve this mystery much sooner because as Taradosgon pointed out, Anakin killed the one person who could identify Sidious to the Jedi (namely Count Dooku). I agree with him that the Jedi should've been furious with Anakin for killing Dooku since that without Dooku's testimony, the Jedi remain blind as bats until Palpatine revealed himself as Sidious to Anakin. Even if the Jedi have all the evidence, they still don't know exactly WHO they're looking for until it's too late.
     
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  18. hyruu79

    hyruu79 Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 22, 2014
    They use the cheapest way out saying that the "darkside has clouded the force" so that means that they can not sense their impending doom.
     
  19. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    During AoTC, when Obi-Wan has been captured by Dooku, he is literally told Sidious is in control of the Senate (I believe the name Sidious is even mentioned). Knowing Dooku is a Sith Lord, Obi-Wan is surprised during The Lost One when he learns Dooku and Darth Tyranus are the same person - "Oh! you're a Sith Lord?! I had no idea"; Yoda in Voices reacts to name 'Sidious' as if he has never heard the name before.

    Of course, Windu and Yoda flat out dismiss the absurdity of the Sith controlling the Senate at the end of AoTC, but the revelations of TCW season 6 should have made them go "Oh ****! It's true!". Yet, the Jedi Order seem be be shouting "la la la, I can't hear you!" as they skip to their deaths. The entire Council are given enough information to piece together the puzzle to understand the Sith's overall plan.

    In conclusion, it seems the Jedi fall in RoTS was more to do with their own ignorance, stupidity and naivety.
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In Labyrinth of Evil, Yoda says "Captured, Dooku will never be. Die fighting, he will."

    So - they don't think (at least in the Multimedia Project) that it'll be possible to capture Dooku alive.
     
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  21. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003

    I would think it is implied now that Yoda does not feel this way. The vision Sidious creates in the Yoda arc has Anakin wind up with lightsaber scissors to Dooku's throat, just as had occurred in ROTS, and Yoda yells out to Anakin to not kill him, and kind of winces when Anakin does any way. And this is in a vision in which Sidious is right there in front of him. Capturing Dooku in that situation was less important than it was in ROTS, and still Yoda tried to stop it.
     
  22. Why_So_Serious

    Why_So_Serious Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 27, 2013
    Considering the events of a certain "Dooku Captured", I think it's safe to say that theory's right out. :p
     
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  23. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000

    The Jedi didn't really dismiss the idea of the Sith controlling the senate since Mace mentioned that they would "keep a closer eye on the senate". Then, they had Anakin spy on Palpatine because they can sense the dark side surrounding the chancellor. Lastly, the Jedi aren't really "la la la-ing" to their deaths on the count that, again, they still don't have a visual ID on who Darth Sidious is until Palpatine opened his mouth to Anakin. The real reason why the Jedi fell is because none of them could forsee that Anakin will betray them all (although Yoda may have seen visions of it happening but why he didn't warn the other Jedi is beyond me).
     
  24. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I kind of wonder where Order 66 leaves the commissioned officers like Tarkin, Yularen, etc. when it is merely a Manchurian Candidate trigger. An by the end of ROTS, we do see a Venator-class Star Destroyer full of recruits, with the clones having been phased out.

    A contingency order given to everyone is one thing. It's another if you have Admirals and recruits aboard naval vessels, with clones barging into a room to shoot the Jedi commander with the Admiral and recruits having no idea what the hell is going on. I can't imagine that they would just step aside and let the clones shoot the Jedi, since without being contacted by Palpatine himself and told of a Jedi Rebellion, it would look like a defective clone mutiny. Plus I would think it would just tick off Admirals to find out that Palpatine completely disrespected the chain of command, bypassing admirals and generals (I'd imagine that there are non-Jedi generals out there somewhere) and giving orders directly to the troops.

    Plus it seemed like with the incident at the Temple with Bail that the clones wanted no witnesses. They probably didn't want people knowing that they weren't taking any prisoners. Which is complicated if you have large segments of the Republic Military (namely officers and recruits) that are kept in the dark about Order 66, until one day a clone comes on the bridge and puts a blaster to the Jedi commander's back and pulls the trigger. It becomes conspicuous that the officers were kept in the dark about some alleged coup, but even the excuse of a coup seems inapt to explain why Jedi are being gunned down in cold blood rather than apprehended to stand trial.

    We see why the clones don't care, because they have biochips compelling them to do this stuff. But what about someone like Yularen?

    We see how angry Anakin gets when the Jedi didn't trust him with the Raako Hardeen/Obi-Wan plot. In any kind of realistic outcome, I would think that Palpatine would only succeed in antagonizing many of the Republic officers by circumventing their authority. Unless, like Stalin, Palpatine turned around and purged the Republic officers as well and replaced them with less savory types, with Yularen and Tarkin making the cut.
     
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  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Early EU did actually mention Palpatine purging those officers he hadn't been able to win over.