The Key to what was Wrong

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BellyButton, Jul 9, 2002.

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  1. BellyButton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    I've been thinking of this and I have it: it's all the fault of the age of Anakin in TPM and so the knock on effect for AOTC.

    If Anakin had only been 12 or better 14:

    First of all TPM would have been light years better, and so the effect of the basher fans on AOTC would have been blunted. Yippee!

    If he was 14, the gap between TPM and AOTC could have been shorter - 5 years?

    So,his romance with Padme would not have had the age credibility gap

    And the time away from his mother without so much as an interstellar phone call would likewise not have strained credibility so much

    Obi Wan Kenobi would not come over as such an apprentice (=jerk)

    Anakin would not have jumped from brat to whiner


    And what has Sidious been playing at for a decade anyway?

    The Clone Army would either have to have been incubated quicker or the Sifo-Dyas subplot predate Palpatine's Chancellorship - so what?

  2. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
  3. zeekveerko Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    these are all good points.
    i can't express enough times how much better these movies would be had he written them all together a few years in advance, put them aside, then reworked them individually just before filming. he did not account for the flow of the saga as a whole, and instead concentrated on the box office sales of each individual movie.
  4. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    Although I would have preferred it if Anakin had been 14 in TPM, Lucas knows what he is doing, so let us get over it.

  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think the key to what goes wrong is some of you go into the film with the wrong attitude.

    The films themselves are all better than 75% of the crap that gets shoveled out of Hollywood each week, so it can't be their fault.
  6. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    GO-MER-TONIC if you find 75% of the movies "out there" to be "crap", then I think you are the one with a severe attitude problem.

    Getting back to the point of the thread, I ado agree with the points raised. I would also like to add another idea: Introduce Count Dooku in TPM. This way, there is a lot more logic to the Sith conspiracy. We can see Dooku pretending to be a loyal Jedi and maybe even discussing his disillusion with the Republic and the Jedi with Qui Gon, thus explaining QG's "maverick" ways.

    It would also make the opening scene in palp's office in AOTC a lot more logical. Padme calls out Count Dooku as her assassin. Why???? There is never a remote reason given for why she thinks this. If Dooku appears a little suspicious in TPM, it at least makes some sense. Then After Padme accuses him, Mace jumps in and basically says Dooku could never do such a thing. Again, we have no frame of reference to know whether he would or he wouldn't. Is Padme right? Is Mace right? There's no way to tell. This is the basis of the plot and it's illogical.

    And finally, we could receive a real shock when we see that Dooku is actually a Sith in AOTC. Seeing the once loyal Master from TPM, now facing off with Yoda 10 years later, would have had a lot more dramtic impact.
  7. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4

    I don't think there's anything wrong with the ages. I trust Lucas and I'm enjoying the prequels.
  8. Darth_Bendover Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 1
    Agreed Destiny's Sword. I have said all along that GL missed out greatly in using episode one as a showcase for his CGI world. If storytelling was the basis of his PT then get the story going already damn it! Get Anakin discovered, forget the gungan race, get Naboo taken over completely, get characters pissed off when qui-gon dies half way in. Get dokuus dissapointment in the Jedis sympathy for Qui gons death. See his falling. Get Anakin growing up by cutting to the next scene of traning. Then leave episode 1 with all the characters bulit, Amidala without a home and Anakin, say 15 years old. Introduce Episode 2. Fine the way it is. Please dont mess up episode 3.
  9. Import_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    Why are so many people anti-children in movies?

    Because you have to make them spew out lines like "Yippee" and "Wizard!" That, and you can't dress kids in black trench coats and have them look cool shooting people like in The Matrix. :) ;)

    EDIT: I'd change that last line if I were you, Darth_Bendover
  10. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Lucas had his reasons for making Anakin 9 in TPM. And to be honest, it seems like this exhausted complaint is just another out of a bag of complaints that gets passed around:

    Anakin being 9 sucks. Why? Because it does. And a 9 year old kid saying "Yippee!" is ever so much more offensive than grown men yelling "Yahoo!" and "Yeeha!" as in the OT.

    The racial stereotypes. This way I can look morally superior while I complain.

    Jar Jar. Can't appear uncool, so I gotta complain about him.

    Oh, and there's usually a "Bring back Gary Kurtz!" in there someplace.
  11. BellyButton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    Yes Karma, but if Anakin had been 14 in TPM, then another stupidity would have been avoided - Padme, the 13 year old queen of Naboo (and supreme strategist, parliamentary debater, etc - give me a break!) Anakin's age is a HUGE saga-killing goof.

    Shelley, Lucas' reason was box office - the dumb idea that kids want to see kids in movies. When I was a 10 year old kid and saw Luke I wanted to be him - I didn't want him to be me.
  12. bossk621 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 1999
    star 1
    For us to truly believe that Anakin is ready for the trials, and that he could seriously take on Dooku, the time gap between episodes I and II had to be at least 10 years IMO.
  13. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    GL has stated that it was important to see Anakin as acompletely innocent child. If he was 14 he would already be prone to teenage sulks and everything else that comes with that age. I don't agree with GL on everything but I do on this.
  14. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    If Anakin had only been 12 or better 14:

    First of all TPM would have been light years better, and so the effect of the basher fans on AOTC would have been blunted. Yippee!


    I seriously doubt that. Bashers have shown that they will whine about everything. They'll invent stuff to whine about if need be.

    If he was 14, the gap between TPM and AOTC could have been shorter - 5 years?

    Yes. So?

    So,his romance with Padme would not have had the age credibility gap

    Huh?

    And the time away from his mother without so much as an interstellar phone call would likewise not have strained credibility so much

    How did this strain credibility?

    Obi Wan Kenobi would not come over as such an apprentice (=jerk)

    Apprentices are jerks? Hm. New insight.

    Anakin would not have jumped from brat to whiner

    Anakin in TPM was not a brat. And yes, he's a little whiny in AOTC, but he's supposed to be.

    And what has Sidious been playing at for a decade anyway?

    Um...being Chancellor? Slowly bringing the Senate under his power? You know, if you paid attention to the movies, your chances of understanding it increase by a factor of ten, and your complaints may decrease by a similar factor.

    The Clone Army would either have to have been incubated quicker or the Sifo-Dyas subplot predate Palpatine's Chancellorship - so what?

    So what, indeed. I'm not sure what your complaint is here.
  15. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Yes Karma, but if Anakin had been 14 in TPM, then another stupidity would have been avoided - Padme, the 13 year old queen of Naboo (and supreme strategist, parliamentary debater, etc - give me a break!)

    What was so stupid about that? And if you can't suspend your disbelief, you are watching the wrong movie series.

    Anakin's age is a HUGE saga-killing goof.

    OK. Then leave the saga. We won't miss you and your self-congratulatory cynicism.

    Shelley, Lucas' reason was box office - the dumb idea that kids want to see kids in movies.

    Can you point to the interview where he said this, or is this your own belief because you want to justify your nastiness?

    When I was a 10 year old kid and saw Luke I wanted to be him - I didn't want him to be me.

    So what?
  16. Import_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    So,his romance with Padme would not have had the age credibility gap

    Err, look at Woody Allen and his lovely wife. Not to mention that one teacher who made headlines years ago by falling in love with a 13-year old student in her class :) :eek:

    And the time away from his mother without so much as an interstellar phone call would likewise not have strained credibility so much

    You can counter-argue this but if Shaquille O'Neal can go his whole life without saying a word to his biological dad, then Anakin could've somewhat cope with the absence from his mom for a decade ;)
  17. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    BELLYBUTTON Said: Shelley, Lucas' reason was box office - the dumb idea that kids want to see kids in movies. When I was a 10 year old kid and saw Luke I wanted to be him - I didn't want him to be me.

    Great point.

    BOOSsK621 said: For us to truly believe that Anakin is ready for the trials, and that he could seriously take on Dooku, the time gap between episodes I and II had to be at least 10 years IMO.

    Why do we need at least 10 years?? Anakin is supposed to be a Force prodigy. Couldn't it be reasonable that he develops his skills faster than other padawans?? WE see in AOTC, eh dlearly thinks he's better than all Jedi, including Yoda. And everyone else seems to think he's pretty close, including his own master.

    And why does the 10 year gap have to even be changed?? Can't Anakin be 14 in TPM and 24 in AOTC? What's the big deal??

    And if people are really that fixated on jake Lloyd, why not use him in the begging 20 minutes of the film, then have it transition to teenage Anakin? Nothing signicant came from seeing Anakin as a 9 year old that could not have been gained as as having him 14. Having him older brings more credibility to some of the plot (the Padme/Anakin romance) and makes the more interesting since an adolescent is just generally more dynamic.
  18. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Somewhere I am sure that read where Lucas said that in AOTC, Anakin was on the same level as Luke was in ESB.

    I wish I had the resource to which he said this, so I could post proof. However if he did say this, I sure hope he did not mean that Luke was equal to Anakin at this point in terms of becoming a Jedi.

    Anakin had 10 years of training when AOTC opened,a nd he was in the Jedi temple, whereas Luke did not start any real serious training until after ESB opened.

    He likely meant that they were in the same place in terms of choices and what they both had to face in terms of the temptation of the dark side.

    So what am I saying, I have to admit that I wished that Anakin had been older in TPM. I understand what Lucas was going after in that the timing of Anakin detaching from his mother is why he introduced him at 9 yrs old.


    But I do think for the sake of time and the events that were and have to unfold, seeing an older Anakin would have worked better for me, but as said, Lucas knows what he is doing, and he is establishing the grounds and foundation that leads to Anakin's fall

    By the way, how much of a difference would it have made had Anakin been 14-15 years old?? I think it still would have been emotionally difficult for him to leave her, seeing this was the only parent he knew, and living in slavery is all he had known and exprienced.

    And also, his age, even at 14-15 yrs old would not have negated his fears and concerns for his mother.


    Darth Sin! :cool:

  19. JediLord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2000
    star 4
    GL made Anakin 9 b/c it is more raumatic for a 9 year old to leave his mother than a 12 or 14 year old. He would not have been as crushed when she died, so THAT would be unbelievable.
  20. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    Here is a point that should shut everyone up. The reason anikin is 9 in TPM and 19 in AOTC, and why Padme is 4-5 years older and every other reason.

    Well, it is because, that is how the story goes in George Lucas's mind, it is his creation, and if that is what he wants, that is the story, if you want something diffrent, wirte your own story.

  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Why do we need at least 10 years?? Anakin is supposed to be a Force prodigy. Couldn't it be reasonable that he develops his skills faster than other padawans?? WE see in AOTC, eh dlearly thinks he's better than all Jedi,

    He THINKS he's better than all Jedi. That doesn't mean he is. Aside from his podracing abilities, we don't see that Anakin is a Force prodigy--he has a lot of power, but he doesn't know how to use it. I don't see why he'd necessarily develop his skills faster than other Padawans.

    including Yoda. And everyone else seems to think he's pretty close, including his own master.

    Oh? Then why does he say, "Only in your mind, my young Padawan!" when Anakin says he equals Yoda in lightsaber skills?

    And why does the 10 year gap have to even be changed?? Can't Anakin be 14 in TPM and 24 in AOTC? What's the big deal??

    For the billionth time...Lucas wanted him an innocent child in TPM to show that the future Darth Vader did not start out bad, and that his separation from his mother was a big deal to him. It would not have been so easy to show this if he was a teenager.

    What's the big deal with making him 14 in TPM? Why are YOU so fixated on seeing him at that age?

    And if people are really that fixated on jake Lloyd, why not use him in the begging 20 minutes of the film, then have it transition to teenage Anakin?

    Yeah. And when's the last time you saw a SW movie move ahead 5 years in the middle?

    I can see the complaints if he'd done that: "Why did Lucas do that stupid jump in time? He's raping my childhood by not staying true to the formula he used in the other movies!"

    Nothing signicant came from seeing Anakin as a 9 year old that could not have been gained as as having him 14.

    WRONG. It is harder to convey innocence in a teenager than a small child. It is harder for a child to leave their mother than a teenager.

    I fail to see how anything significant would have come from seeing Anakin as a 14-year-old, except it would have shut some bashers up. Although they'd have found other stuff to whine about, like, "How come we didn't see Anakin's childhood? Why didn't we see more of him with his mother? Lucas should have shown us, not told us in flashback!"

    Having him older brings more credibility to some of the plot (the Padme/Anakin romance)

    How?

    and makes the more interesting since an adolescent is just generally more dynamic.

    Oh, I think Anakin was pretty dynamic in TPM.
  22. OB3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    "There is no conflict!"
    There is nothing wrong!
    Anakin was behaving like any
    nine year old kid would
    have!
    Let´s face it kids are annoying!
    The whole point of Anakin in TPM was
    to show that he started out as a
    regular boy who was geniunely
    good hearted but through
    the years he discovers
    how special his powers
    are and he gradually
    becomes arrogant, greedy,
    obsessed, jealous, bitter,
    corrupt and ultimately
    he turns into an evil
    character who feels
    nothing but hatred.
    It´s all to show the contrast
    of how an innocent youth
    can go through trials
    and tribulations and
    little by little
    turn into a man
    who does nothing
    but evil deeds.
    Step by step:
    Episode I: young, good, hero
    Episode II: older, confused, unbalanced, conflicted, arrogant, power hungry
    Episode III: grown up man, hateful, evil, corrupt, villain
    It´s a tragedy of a downwardspiral
    from good to bad, from heaven to hell
    and from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader...
  23. BellyButton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    So none of you think there is even anything remotely strange about a 9yr old boy's affection for a friend slowly developing into lust over a 10 year period?

    And it's you lot who harp on about his innocence.

    What was it he said? He's been thinking of her constantly? Can't get her out of his mind? When did friendship turn to lust then? So much more credible if he'd been 14 and then 19 (I don't see the need for a 10 year gap either you see.)

  24. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    So none of you think there is even anything remotely strange about a 9yr old boy's affection for a friend slowly developing into lust over a 10 year period?

    Actually, it was more like developing into obsession.

    What was it he said? He's been thinking of her constantly? Can't get her out of his mind? When did friendship turn to lust then? So much more credible if he'd been 14 and then 19 (I don't see the need for a 10 year gap either you see)

    How would it be more credible? Anakin met her when he was 9. He thought she was the most beautiful creature he'd ever seen. He underwent puberty in the ten-year gap between TPM and AOTC, when hormones do all kinds of weird things to your thoughts and memories.
  25. BellyButton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    Damn weird!

    More credible? Well, I was looking at girls when I was 14... I can even imagine fixating on one for the next five.

    And it isn't as if the Jedi are a male-only order. He must have met other females in the decade.
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