The Key to what was Wrong

I am not just pretending to like the prequels, they really are as good as the classic trilogy.

For some reason, many people who were perfectly capable of overlooking the dicey bits in the classic trilogy have developed this zero tolerance stance while appraising the new episodes.

I don't mind you guys critiquing TPM or AOTC, I would just prefer you guys coming up with decent, banakble reasons. Not petty gripes and hypocritical complaints that were equally true of the classic trilogy.

I mean, if you have determined that as a fan, you are "better" than the new installments, well then again, congratualations on being so picky.

I just find it to be ridiculous and unfounded.

But hey, whatever you guys want to believe is fine with me, I am only trying to help.

I figure SW fans would want to be able to enjoy these films, and I am just offering why I do.

If you suddenly see why they are great, then cool, if not, then I salute you, and hope you find something cool elsewhere.

 

BellyButton wrote:

And the time away from his mother without so much as an interstellar phone call would likewise not have strained credibility so much

Shelley replied:

How did this strain credibility?

I can't believe you asked this question. Of all of BellyButton's complaints about ATOC, I think this one has the most validity. In fact, my husband and I had the very same conversation when we were walking to the parking lot after seeing the movie the first time. Anakin and his mother were very close - do you really think he'd go ten years without so much as a letter or phone call?? Really?? That's not a credibility-strainer for you??

 

The best part of the PT. THERE IS NO LANDO!



you have just trashed a wonderful, diverse, intelligent character who can think on his toes better than anyone else in all of the saga!!!!!!!!
who else could have completely side-stepped vader the way he did?
no one even attempts to fill his or han's shoes in the pt. maybe that's why it doesn't appeal to some as much.

 

kittenmommy, you're right. It's completely ridiculous. But I can tell you what reply you will get from the fanboys. They will tell you that he couldn't write any letters because the Jedi code didn't allow it. Because Jedis absolutely disallow their students to EVER get in touch with their parents. Not only is this a laughable reason and portrays the Jedis as an inhumane organisation or sect along the lines of Scientology, it also is NOWHERE EXPLAINED OR MENTIONED IN THE FILM

 

It is the way of a Jedi. Most Jedi are only accepted near birth, so they make no connection to their parents and family at all. They were making a huge exception with Anakin to allow him to train even with this kind of attatchment, but obviously, they didn't want him developing any more of a bond to his mother. He was simply not allowed to keep in contact. When he left, his mother knew exactly what it meant to become a Jedi, and she told Anakin to never look back.

If you want to say you didn't like the film, that's great, but don't confuse your lack of understanding as some sort of a plot hole. It's like you guys get to a point in the film you don't understand, and instead of trying to figure out why something is the way it is, you throw your arms up right away and declare it "senseless". There is too much going on in this story for Lucas to have the time to walk everyone through every simple plot point. You have to actually put some things together on your own.

That is, if you actually want to enjoy these films.

 

"Shelley, Lucas' reason was box office - the dumb idea that kids want to see kids in movies.

Can you point to the interview where he said this, or is this your own belief because you want to justify your nastiness? "

Can't point to a SW related instance, but on the DVD for TUCKER, Coppola relates a story where he Lucas, as executive producer, asked for only one change in the story: to give Preston Tucker a young kid for a child. Coppola said Lucas thought that would improve the box office and make it more family friendly.

 

Holy cow that was hilarious!! Tukafo called it and Gomer wrote exactly what was predicted!!

 

I am under the impression that Anakin was forbidden by the Jedi Council to have any kind of contact with his mother because they forbid attachment. The Jedi Council doesn't know how to deal with Anakin's attachment to his mother because all the Jedi they train have no attachments because they take kids practically from birth! They have no experience dealing with starting training at Anakin's age, and thus attempt to treat Anakin like all their other "Jedi Students".

 

Go-Mer Tonic, what you're actually trying to say is "Lucas ignores half the story, leaves lots of plot holes but I'm sure fanboys on the internet can come up with some kind of explanation for all this madness if they watch the film often enough".

Sorry, but that's not storytelling

 

Well of course he called it, it is the reason why Anakin never "wrote" his mom between episodes. If you want to pretend it makes no sense, by all means, continue to ignnore the reason behind these percieved shortcomings.

It's your choice.

It's not bad storytelling, it just requires viewers to think.

 

Go-Mers right. The reason Anakin never "wrote" his mom was because the Jedi forbid attachment. If you don't like that the Jedi forbid attachment, then you should be argueing about the policies of the Jedi. But don't call it a plot hole, because it's not-- it's part of the story!

 

It makes sense, but it's never made apparent in the movie. I think that's what Tukafo is getting at. And please don't go labeling me as a basher, I enjoyed AOTC quite a bit.

 

Tukafo wrote:

kittenmommy, you're right. It's completely ridiculous.

Oh thank you! For a minute, I was afraid I was going insane or something!

But I can tell you what reply you will get from the fanboys.

Yeah, I think I can guess too. Some people take this stuff WAAAAY too seriously.

They will tell you that he couldn't write any letters because the Jedi code didn't allow it. Because Jedis absolutely disallow their students to EVER get in touch with their parents. Not only is this a laughable reason and portrays the Jedis as an inhumane organisation or sect along the lines of Scientology, it also is NOWHERE EXPLAINED OR MENTIONED IN THE FILM

Well surely THEY would know better than Mr. Lucas!

Edit: I just wanted to add that even if that WERE the case - that the young students were not allowed contact with their families - it's possible that allowances could be made in Anakin's case.

The rest of the students were taken from their families when they were infants and probably don't remember or miss their parents, whereas Anakin's situation is a bit different.

I know some people will say that there's NO WAY the inflexible Jedi Council would ever allow such a break with tradition like letting Anakin call his mom or write her a letter. I guess that would be the same Jedi Council that's never reversed a decision like refusing to train a certain child or broken with tradition and taken an older Padawan!

 

BUT wasn't the "code of the Jedi" being (eternally?) separate from families only developed in TPM - at least in terms of the detail you all make so much about (that no contact shall be allowed, ever!)

It surely only came about in TPM because having Anakin aged 9 meant that there had to be a 10 year interval between TPM and AOTC in order to get Anakin to late adolesence for the movie (eg and not 5 years if he'd been 14) And a 5 year gap I could just about imagine.

So in other words it looks like GL invented the first (the separation Code) to justify/paper over the second (no contact with parent for 10 years, and all the narrative disjunction it would create.)

It's a plot device - and (my whole point) not a very credible one.

 

exactly. the big problem is that these things are never explained. And please don't tell me that it's down to the viewer to work it out. Let's face it, in TPM and AOTC we learn next to nothing about what the Jedi are and how they teach their students. We fans know much more about these things than we see in the film because we read books, get background info from starwars.com etc. But the films show practically nothing. What do we really see about the Jedi education? Some guys that sit in a circle in TPM and discuss prophecies. Some kids in AOTC that wear helmets and try to hit little toy thingies. And that's supposed to be sufficient background information for the viewer to decide whether the Jedi allow contact to the students' parents? Why do we only get 2 minutes of Jedi background yet 20 minutes of podrace or an eternity on the droid assembly?

 

Holy cow that was hilarious!! Tukafo called it and Gomer wrote exactly what was predicted!!

I have to admit that made me chuckle too. Touche.

 

In TPM, they establish that the reason they decided to not train him initially had to do with his attatchment to his mother.

What did you want Ric Olie to burst into the Jedi council and say something like: "So if you were to train Anakin, he woulldn't be able to see his mother until he passes the trials? Wow! (turns to camera) you got that out there? You will need to know this for the next film so you don't think it's odd that Anakin hadn't talked to his mother since this film..."

 

No, I wanted the two movies to make sense on their own terms.

 

A simple line to Anakin about him never being allowed to see his mother again would have sufficed, and made his decision more dramatic, IMO.

 

Remind me then (I don 't know the dialogue word for word)- in effect Qui Gon lied to Anakin when they were leaving Tatooine? Or do all nine year old ex-slaves know the Jedi code off by heart? And if they do, they can recognise the implications of their decision? We should give them the vote!

 

If you find it streches credibility, then I suppose you don't believe Shaolin Monks exist

In those days, parents, mostly from the poorer class of people, would give their children up to the Shaolin temple. In this way, the young boys were assured food, shelter and an education.

In return, the children would serve the temple as fighting monks and follow the principles of the prevailing deity of the
temple under the guidance of the Abbot. The monks could not leave the temple once they had been accepted and initiated.
They were bound by an oath of abstinence and celibacy from the outside world.

 

Stone_Jedi wrote:

Holy cow that was hilarious!! Tukafo called it and Gomer wrote exactly what was predicted!!

Indeed he did.

I have to admit that I appreciate being enlightened. I did not realize that my husband and I really don't enjoy "Star Wars" movies and that we actually lack the intellectual capacity to understand them.

Now I realize that what we took to be a glaring flaw in the plot was in fact a finer plot point that was far too advanced for us to comprehend. Thank you, Gomer! I've finally seen the light!

 

Anakin already believed/worried he would never see his mother again, and says so in almost exactly those words. He says the same thing about Padme (something like, "I'm about to start my training, I hope. I may never see her again, and I wanted to say goodbye."). No one in TPM acts like Anakin is going to see either of them or keep in close contact with them once he starts his training, and he realizes this when he says goodbye to both of them. The Council think his concern for his mother will be a huge problem in his training. Anakin flat-out says in AOTC that attachment is forbidden for the Jedi.

I don't agree with the Jedi's stance on attachments, I think it's a big problem for the Order. But I think their position on this was made fairly clear. JMHO.

 

Darth Poutine,
Yes indeed, an anti-humanistic, cruel, feudal, exploitative, parasitic order. Just what George intended...

By this line of reasoning, perhaps Padme's feet should have been bound for extra credibility

 

some people shouldn't forget that with good storytelling EVERYTHING should make sense or can be deducted on the first viewing of a film without prior knowledge of the plot of the film and without 3 years of detailed spoiler posts that cover every single aspect of everything.

Also don't forget another thing - everything in the PT should make sense without knowledge of the OT