The Key to what was Wrong

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BellyButton, Jul 9, 2002.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas did not think of Dooku until he began AOTC. Looking back, we can safely say that Jedi Master Dooku was away on assignment, while Qui-gon was speaking with the Council. Jedi are busy people.

    Mace: "I'll gather what Jedi are available..."

    The opening crawl also mentions that the Jedi are overwhelmed and spread thin. TPM showed that Obi-wan and Qui-gon were on assignment. AOTC began with Anakin and Obi-wan coming back from Anison. They're always on the go. Dooku was off world and not important to the plot then. If Lucas feels the need to put him in, he will. But answer me this, where was Lando in ANH? He's important to the plot in ESB and ROTJ, but why didn't we see him before then?

    Yarael Poof was caught in the crossfire between Jango and Zam, and another foe. Poof was killed by the latter. Coleman Trebor replaced him on the Council. Eu is canon, to a degree. In that it's a parallel universe and thus happened. The movies still come first, but the story of Poof is wrapped up there. And if that doesn't satisfy you, he died off screen. All but two fully trained Jedi survive the Clone Wars and the Jedi Purge.

    Yoda was defending himself, not attacking Dooku. Dooku was the one to suggest using the Lightsabers. He just obliged him.

    As to Sifo-Dyas, I said that nothing more will be revealed until episode 3. How or why, will not be known until then. It could've been Maul or it could've been in the line of duty. If it's the latter, then that's it. Palpatine just used it to his advantage. Jedi do die, without needing a Sith Lord.

    Anakin: "No one can kill a Jedi."

    Qui-gon: "I wish that were true."
  2. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    This while "Jedi are busy" concept is illogical too. It seems there are very few threars of violence in the galaxy. We never hear of one. In TPM< padme tells the Senate her people are being killed, and the Senate is still in no rush to do anything about it. NOw we are supposed to believe that 9,800 Jedi are dispatched all over the cosmos while the greatest military conflict in thousands of years goes down??? Why would it not be an "all hands on deck" situation??

    We can speculate all we want, and I think it is a fun thing to do, but it does not make up for missing information in the actual movie. I have also stated in many, many threads, that the Jedi should not be fighting the Clone War because by the end of the film, there are more than enough clues known by Obi Wan and the Jedi to conclude that the Clone War is a phony war being orhcestrtaed by the Sith with help from the Senate.

    Dooku's abscence from TPM was also a problem. As I state earlier in this thread, he should have been introudced in TPM to give us a much better referece for the character in AOTC. Instead we're left with unaswered questions about "D'koo."
  3. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    This while "Jedi are busy" concept is illogical too. It seems there are very few threars of violence in the galaxy. We never hear of one.

    So you need to hear of one before you'll believe they exist?

    By that logic, do you find it hard to believe there's violence here on Earth unless you hear of it?

    In TPM< padme tells the Senate her people are being killed, and the Senate is still in no rush to do anything about it. NOw we are supposed to believe that 9,800 Jedi are dispatched all over the cosmos while the greatest military conflict in thousands of years goes down??? Why would it not be an "all hands on deck" situation??

    Maybe because they realized their earlier mistake in not helping Padme? And maybe because in the ten years since TPM, there has been an increasing threat, and the Jedi realized they need to get off their butts and act like the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy?

    I believe Mace Windu makes a reference to "what Jedi we have left." Seems to me like they've lost a few Jedi in other conflicts. I believe the opening crawl refers to "overwhelmed Jedi."

    Dooku's abscence from TPM was also a problem. As I state earlier in this thread, he should have been introudced in TPM to give us a much better referece for the character in AOTC. Instead we're left with unaswered questions about "D'koo."

    Which is probably the intention. We don't know if he's a good or bad guy. Why not wait until Episode III before voicing your complaints?
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    10,000 Jedi were in existence in TPM. The Republic is made up of thousands of worlds. Far more than the standard 2 Jedi, per system. Possily even more were involved in certain conflicts. By the time of AOTC, there's 9,000 Jedi. Many of the worlds are rebelling and leaving the Repulic. Guess what the Jedi are going to be doing? Trying to talk them out of it. And if not that, trying to stop the Sepertist movement.

    It's not exactly easy pulling them off of active duty. If most of our armed forces are busy fighting on one front, there won't be enough time to bring more help, if an attack occurs on another front. In this instance, the Jedi don't want to pull of all 9,000 Jedi for one battle. They don't even know the CIS has a huge Droid Army. And since Yoda is going to get the Clonetroopers, all should go well. Mace is arrogant enough to think that 200 Jedi are enough to rescue Obi-wan. That's part of the reason the Jedi are wiped out. They think that they have the advantage.

    Back to Naboo. The Senate is corrupted. Palpatine was right about that. That's why he used that to his advantage to gain control of the Senate. Half the Repbulic is gung ho, the other half wants peace. Notice that at first, there was approval for action to be taken. But Lott Dodd and Ask Moe was able to delay that by taking it to the courts and demanding an investigation. Vallourm had to defer to that. This is why Padme called for the vote of No-Confidence. Watch TPM again and you'll see it.

    Well, I guess Lando should've been introduced in ANH, to better show why Han and Lando had falling out. Or what about Yoda? Why didn't Obi-wan mention him, before rushing off to shut down the tractor beam?

    You see the fallicy in that logic? Dooku wasn't important in TPM. We find out in AOTC that Dooku was a former Jedi and when Obi-wan was captured, that Dooku taught Qui-gon.

    All of this is not speculation, these are undeniable facts.
  5. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    This while "Jedi are busy" concept is illogical too. It seems there are very few threars of violence in the galaxy. We never hear of one.

    It was mentioned in the opening crawl. The CIS was starting trouble all over the Galaxy.
  6. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Added scenes to TPM if these people got their way:

    (at Qui-Gonn's funeral)
    Dooku: Boy, I sure hate the corruption of the Republic! And I'm angry at Qui-Gonn's death! I'm leaving the Jedi Order! (stomps out)

    (In the Jedi Council)
    Sifo-Dyas (to padawan): Say, boy, could you fetch me some coffee? And could you order about a million clones?

    Added ones to AOTC:

    (in the elevator)
    Obi-Wan: Gee, it sure is a shame that in the past ten years, Yarael Poof died and Yaddle rotated out of the Council.
    Anakin: Yes, it is.
    (awkward pause)

    (in the Senate)
    Mace Windu: It is done then. I will take what Jedi we have left on Coruscant, since the others are busy in various engagements and/or negotiations throughout the galaxy, and go to Geonosis.
    (cuts to several shots of engagements and negotiations)

    That would link the two movies together much better, I'm sure.
  7. Darth_Hater Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 2
  8. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Ah, the old "straw man" argument. Works every time. ;)
  9. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    More on my problems...If you caught the last few check out a page or so back...

    GL wants to make the Jedi like a combination of "Buddhist Monks" and "Cowboys."

    Never mind that the combination is totally out of this world wrong...but the closest you could come to it would be Samurai. Nothing new there...we all knew this.

    In fact, Lucas not only stole from Kurosawa for ANH ("the hidden fortress" I believe) but the transferance between Samurai and Cowboy movies is very strong (Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven...Last Man Standing (Fistfull of Dollars?)/Yojimbo the Bodyguard)....

    Which is all fine and good except that Samurai...are Not buddhist Monks. While samurai can behave like cowboys - I mean get politically involved, be the fastest on the draw, travel about the countryside getting involved, etc... They are nowhere near as "holy" or as "pompous" as the Jedi Order.... Samurai do follow general Japanese Zen and Shinto (?) religion/philosophy...and they believe in "concentration" but that's it...nowhere near as "force" conscious as Yoda or Mace.

    Hence the Jedi should have been more like the Samurai. There should have been a "house of Jedi" in which you had a master who trained you in the fighting forms (like Samurai)...but then there should have been a lot of other Jedi. And I mean a lot...a lot.

    Wandering about space...sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes really evil (AKA the house of Sith). Every once in a while the Jedi could have dueled.

    Yoda's House of Jedi would have been interned to the Republic...but not all Jedi needed to be... This way, Anakin could have had a choice...stay with the house...leave and become Ronin, or be Ronin long enough until picked up by Sidious.


    Perhaps this could have eased the "mixed bag" of political alliances...infighting within the Jedi Order. Following the Republic, not following, disagreeing with Yoda, being a "good Jedi." All these inconsitencies would have made more sense if in spite of being a house of its own, some Jedi were political, some were bandits...


    Any thoughts on this?
  10. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    SHELLEY:
    "So you need to hear of one before you'll believe they exist?

    By that logic, do you find it hard to believe there's violence here on Earth unless you hear of it?


    Well, yes, when we know thatthe Republic has not had a standing army of any kind fo rthosuands of years and that the Jedi suddenly are incapable of fighting wars, then I need to actually hear of a conflict before knowing one is taking place that requires 9,800 Jedi while the Battle of geonosis is fougth with 200. Your comparison to Earth is not analgous. But even if you did want to go there, I will. I know right now there are conflicts taking place that the United States military is fighting in, even thought I don't hear about them. I know there are some we will NEVER hear about, in which many soldiers will die. However, I would have to see some serious evidence of a conflict that would require us dispatching 98% of out forces and had them so occupied we could not redistribute even 1 percent of them for the biggest conflict in history.


    Maybe because they realized their earlier mistake in not helping Padme? And maybe because in the ten years since TPM, there has been an increasing threat, and the Jedi realized they need to get off their butts and act like the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy?

    I believe Mace Windu makes a reference to "what Jedi we have left." Seems to me like they've lost a few Jedi in other conflicts. I believe the opening crawl refers to "overwhelmed Jedi."


    Well, I still don't know what the threat is. While systems are joining the CIS before AOTC, they are not engaging in armed conflict. They are merely disassociating with the Republic.


    Which is probably the intention. We don't know if he's a good or bad guy. Why not wait until Episode III before voicing your complaints?

    I have no problem with not knowing if Dooku is good or evil in AOTC. but it's hard not to know from the jump that he is the villain when in the 2nd scene of the film, Padme calls him out as her assassin. We have not seen or heard of this guy and the heroine of the film has told us he's bad. Mace counters her accusation, but he really has no reason besides "Come on now..Dooku's not that kind of guy." That's not very compelling. it would have made more sense to let us see Dooku in TPM as a Jedi Master, loyal to the Order (even if he's just pretending), but skeptical of its practices and the effectiveness of the Republic. Then we could see some logic to Qui Gon's "maverick" ways and also have a real surprise when Dooku is revealed on-screen as a villain in AOTC.





    DARTH SINISTER said:

    10,000 Jedi were in existence in TPM. The Republic is made up of thousands of worlds. Far more than the standard 2 Jedi, per system. Possily even more were involved in certain conflicts. By the time of AOTC, there's 9,000 Jedi.

    Where are you getting any of this from?? I only rely on the movies for "undeniable facts." I think you may be getting some of this from the EU. It is never said in TPM that there are 10,000 Jedi. And it is never said that 1,000 died between TPM and AOTC.

    Many of the worlds are rebelling and leaving the Repulic. Guess what the Jedi are going to be doing? Trying to talk them out of it. And if not that, trying to stop the Sepertist movement.

    Again, we are never told that the Jedi are trying to dissuade other systems from leaving. in fact, throughout AOTC, dissauding systems never even seems to be a concern of the Council. If there was so much rebellion going on, and so many threats among thousands of systems, why is all the effort put on finding out who tried to kill Padme? Shouldn't that just be one of many issues the Council is concerned with?

    In this instance, the Jedi don't want to pull of all 9,000 Jedi for one battle. They don't even know the CIS has a huge Droid Army. And since Yoda is going to get the Clonetroopers, all should go well.

    Well, I don't think they need all 9,800 to come in, but you figure they could get a little more back-up out t
  11. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    I only rely on the movies for "undeniable facts."

    Where did you get 10,000 jedi from then? I don't recall anyone ever giving that number in the movies.

    Anyway, who said it was major conflicts? Anakin and Obi-Wan are returning from a border dispute. Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan are trying to stop a blockade. Not major events that shatter worlds, but important enough that they'll be sent out. Imagine if there was some kind of world peacekeeping force. You don't think most of them would be busy most of the time?

    LORD HYDRONIUM -- Newsflash: Sifo-Dyas did not order the clones.

    Duh. That's why it's called a joke.

    Scary thing is, I've actually seen someone suggest that Dooku leave the Jedi order in TPM after Qui-Gonn's funeral. I mean, talk about spelling things out for the audience!
  12. zeekveerko Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    "However, does anyone disagree that the PT could be better if Lucas wrote all 3 at once (just wrote, not actually make them all at once like LOTR)? Then lots of little details could be important, like the Gapor (sp) snippit, or other little things. Sifo-Days could have been hinted at, clones could have been mentioned, ect. However, I think that the saga is doing ok given that it is being written on the fly."

    that's the first thing i wrote, and now i'm considered a basher.
    so, just for the heck of it, i'll tell you what i liked about the movie:
    dialogue between obi and ani reminds me of the originals.
    CU of Jar Jar when obi reprimands anakin - he gulps uncomfortably and it just makes me giggle every time.
    the coruscant chase scene was well-played.
    captain binaca is gone.
    all the new worlds looked very nice.
    most of the story had me riveted, all though it left me wondering about certain things at the end.
    introduction to the death star.
    dooku gets away.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    TPM and AOTC novelizations state those numbers. They are canon.

    The Jedi are guardians, not soilders. They don't fight wars. They aren't meant for it.
  14. libwil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    Also i would believe that the movie could have worked better if GL had taken a hands off approach. TESB and ANH are considered two of the greatest films in cinema history and both of them had different directors and writers. Sometimes one can have too much control stifling the creative process. I am not being negative towards GL and I do apprectiate some of the innovative things he has done with technological advancements in the cinema business.
    Nonetheless, as the adage goes if it aint broke dont fix it.
  15. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    TESB and ANH are considered two of the greatest films in cinema history and both of them had different directors and writers.

    Actually, ANH had the same writer and director as the prequels: George Lucas.
  16. libwil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    Thanks Shelley for correcting me, but still how are those considered great movies but AOTC and TPM are not considered that great. That is all i am trying to figure out.
  17. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    ANH was written and directed by Lucas.

    ESB was written by Lucas and Kasdan. Lucas edited it.

    Nothing was broke. Nothing was fixed.
  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Thanks Shelley for correcting me, but still how are those considered great movies but AOTC and TPM are not considered that great.

    By whom?

    If you're referring to the intelligentsia, I'll point out that the intelligentsia didn't consider the movies of the OT to be "great," or "classics," if you will, until sometime in the early or mid-90s.

    With the release of the PT, suddenly the OT became untouchable and ripping the PT apart while longing for the days of the OT became a favorite sport, often by the same self-styled movie auteurs that had no use for the OT when it was released or in the years following.
  19. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    I think that the prequels aren't considered "great" because they are so new. Also, they are not given the attention they deserve at the Academy Awards, etc., because they are considered sequels, and the Academy has never been kind to sequels. I think by the time the DVD's are released (all 6), that the prequels will start to be recognized as "great". Also, don't forget the potential SW fans who aren't even born yet. I was born in 1982 and was introduced to SW via video. I think this will happen again after 2005 and a whole new fanbase will emerge...
  20. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Gotta agree with Green Destiny again.

    These are problems. Perhaps small - depending on how you view the cinema and what you want out of it - but perhaps great problems IF GL views his job as telling the "details" in "War and Peace" fashion: Telling overall history/politics/social movement while dipping into lives of the little "footmen" who make the big picture what it is.

    And Sinister, if the Jedi are guardians, not soldiers, why do they choose to guard what they choose to guard? Why are some institutions worth guarding but not others?

    The connection to the Jedi and the Senate is one of mutual benefit. Best to be working together, than being enemies. It's a sign of trust that they are allies, working for a common cause.

    Are you implying that the Jedi are a "separate" organization entirely or that they are bound by the dictates of the Senate. If they are bound...there's no sense in talking about working for "mutual benefit." On the other hand, if the Jedi "choose" to help only because it is "beneficial"...well, then, the Senate would probably totally go haywire if the Jedi just suddenly decided to "choose" to "do something else." Are you implying, by logic, that the Jedi could be "separatists?" and "choose a separate path?" But then you say:

    The Senate has laws and guidelines for procedure and must adhere to them. The Jedi cannot do anything political without the Senate's, otherwise they will be branded criminals for violating the law. The President of the US has to have approval from Congress, to declare war on a nation. He goes over their heads, he's screwed. The same thing applies to the Jedi.

    Well...that makes it sound like the Jedi are one of the "branches of government of the Senate" (like the president in your analogy). But you just stated that the Jedi are associating with the republic by choice for mutual benefit. IF our president told the American People that the only reason he's not firing missiles on all the people of the world is because it's mutually beneficial for him to do as the Senate wants...I think the American people would go haywire, take up arms, and remove him from office. He's a part of our governement you see, and he can't talk that way! :mad: (he basically does, but that's another story entirely)


    "They are keepers of the peace for everyone. Since the Republic is interested in peace, they work together to achieve and maintain that peace."

    Ahh yes, keepers of the peace... but then you say:

    Why are they assigned to protect political persons? Why does the President have the Secret Service? Why does the FBI exist? Why do the police exist?

    Hold on a minute. Those organizations you just listed wouldn't exist unless they had authority to act under federal and state constitutions. It's they job to be "keepers of the peace" or to "investigate." In fact, it's precisely because our FBI and Police have a federal and local "mandate" that we are supposed to feel 'safe' in their doing their job according to U.S. and State Law. If we didn't feel safe, we have safety valves in place to totally disarm these branches... Now, if you're saying that the Jedi are a "branch of Republican" government..that's another thing entirely from them being a separate organization that chooses to aid the Republic for their "mutual benefit."

    Hell, if the FBI were a separate institution that only acted for our mutual benefit, most of us would be scared "s&%t-less." Who decides what is "Mutual Benefit?"

    "Everyone listens to the Jedi. They are diplomats and keepers of the peace."

    Exactly...but why do they listen?

    it is an instiution whose main concern is protecting the innocent. The Jedi are not allowed to use the Force other than in the service of others and not themselves.

    Hmmm... I never heard that about their mandate...when did GL say that to you in the movie?


    "Tatooine is not of the Republic. The Senate has not sent the Jedi out there to deal with it, for one of two reasons. 1. They do not know
  21. Darth_Bendover Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 1
    Those of you who say the bashers are bashers. Is it because they are watching the prequel trilogy with Nostalgiac biases and therefore will never be satisfied with what GL produces next?

    OOOOOOOOOR do you think that these faults are intrinsic and Lucas really aint that hot anymore.

    I'm starting to lose my hold on my own objective opinion and don't know what I really think anymore...am I being influenced to not see the faults for my desire not to want to or influence to see faults only where others see them?

    Help...
  22. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    TPM and AOTC novelizations state those numbers. They are canon.

    Yeah. but he wouldn't believe the 9,000 number because he "only [relies] on the movies for "undeniable facts."" , so I asked him why he believed the 10,000 number, since that was never stated in the movies. It seems like he's trying to use outside sources when it "proves" his point, and ignoring them when it's inconvenient.
  23. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Darth_Bendover

    Lucas designed these movies to be read at multiple levels. Part of it is spiritual, science-fiction, action, adventure, political....

    Take your pick. These are topics that intrest him, and he hopes the viewers are at least entertained by them.

    He is telling a fairy tale for our times. "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." Is an updated version of "Once upon a time, in a land far, far away...."

    Certian people would be asking "Why does the Wolf talk to little Red Riding Hood? How does Grandma survive being mauled, chewed and digested by the WOLF?" or "How could three little pigs build homes without any opposable thumbs or financing?" People who pick apart the details miss the over all point of the moral.

    Lucas puts enough details to give it some credibility and texture but not enough to slow down the movie.

    But really people, do you have to be shown EVERYTHING? In case you didn't realize, The Jedi sent Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to deal with the Naboo crisis...they were not expecting a Sith influence. The Jedi only act if the Senate gives them permission to...(this was stated in TPM)

    Jedi Knights are a combination of Texas Rangers and Warrior Buddist Monks. AOTC shows Obi-wan investigating an assasination attempt. Anakin was sent to gaurd Padme. Do we need to know why Padme suspects Dooku? No, we just need to know she does.

    Lucas concentrats on the character and their stories...he doesn't do fade aways, he doesn't do "meanwhile..." No flashbacks. He shows the story chronologically as it happens.

    He is staying with the style he started off in. If you've outgrown it...so be it.

  24. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    If the novelizations to the movies were "cannon" then Owen would be Obi-Wan's brother, among other things.
  25. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    So basically, you have no reason to believe there were 10,000 Jedi. It says in the opening scroll "limited number of Jedi knights". So 200 Jedi went to Geonosis. Maybe there were only 1000 Jedi. For being spread across the galaxy, 20% is a pretty good return. In a time of galaxy-wide crisis, 20% is a great return.

    So what's the problem again?
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