ST The Knights of Ren

I'm curious whether we'll discover who "Ren" is at some point in the ST. I wonder if Ren is even a person? If not, then perhaps Ren is just a name for the group, or the name of the dogma they practice in regards to the Force? If Ren is an actual person, then maybe he's the true big bad the heroes will have to fight at the end of IX. Makes me think - if Supreme Leader Snoke turns out to be just another member of the Knights of Ren, equal to the others despite being the head of The First Order, then maybe the other Knights are heads of other equally dangerous governmental factions in the galaxy. I'm thinking they could be like the Hydra from Greek Mythology...if you cut one head down, another two could replace it...unless some galactic savior by the name of Skywalker/Solo were to cut it down for good

 

I'm more interested in why a pirate owns a castle and knights are acting like pirates. Why does a Knight of Ren share a name incredibly similar to the space pirate, Kybo Ren? Why is the only backstory that we know of Kylo Ren in the movie dispensed by a pirate that lives in a castle?

When MSW described concept art last year, he had a report that described six pirates. One that looked like something out of Assassins Creed and had a lightsaber.

He also said that before the attack on Maz's castle, Snoke tells Kylo not to be so sentimental.



This is where my thoughts dwell regarding the Knights of Ren.

 

I don't think we should worry too much about prophecies: their function historically in narrative is to be wrong, or interpreted wrong and to end up ironically causing what they predict. Something similar like that happened with Anakin: if he hadn't been viewed as the Chosen One, he probably would have never been trained and he probably would have never developed such a messianic attitude that led him to valuing his needs more than others.

We go down the wrong path when trying to hold on to too much literal narrative meaning in the prophecy. It's more important as an ironic plot device than it is to the GFFA itself.

Basically what people should try to accept is the prophecy's weight lessened once Lucas and LFL decided to make more movies.

But if you truly must have an in universe explanation, I've explained imbalance in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions. Removing the Sith was a necessary condition for balance: balance couldn't be achieved without their destruction. However, destroying them wasn't a sufficient condition: it didn't automatically lead to the disappearance of Imperials or Imperial military vessels or bases. The force that guaranteed this evil was destroyed, but we have the leftovers that must be cleaned up.

Destroying the Sith also wasn't a guarantee that other forces might become necessary causes for imbalance. The battle between good and evil is cyclical: it must be fought because if it isn't, the darkness will dominate. Anakin's victory is important despite being a very small part of an infinite struggle.

 

Going back to the Clone Wars animated series, there was an episode where we had The Father (totally balanced between the two sides of the force) The Daughter (more towards the light) and The Son (More towards the Dark). That's still canon and in that episode it was implied that the goal wasn't to destroy the son, just contain him and his sister. That episode is still canon and might be pointing the way for future exploration of the Force itself.

 

I really wouldn't put any thought into Kybo Ren. The only link there will be most likely (if any) is that they liked the sound of the name and tweaked it to be new.

 

Relating to everyone that Snoke tells Kylo not to be 'sentimental' in a scene, must surely mean there has been access to a script? I thought that has never been the case? So that has just been made up then on the base of what exactly

 

Huh? I think that part has the words, Snoke tells Kylo not to be sentimental as the description. Not unfeasible or implausible. It wouldn't be written exactly as the dialogue would be presented in the script though.

 

1. Think of it as removing a cancer. Whatever the flaws of the PT Jedi it seems obvious that Lucas intended their beliefs and actions to be, in general, honourable.

2. I think you are overplaying the corruptness of the Jedi. What we are shown is an arrogant council who are ever increasingly 'clouded by the dark side' (literally the imbalance). However they are shown to value love - even Anakin, who is most against their policy, must admit this in AOTC. When you have cancer your body begins to be damaged - however you still only remove the cancer. Surely we can't permit every single Jedi's death as being necessary or right.

3. However the Sith have never been the only dark siders - if Lucas hadn't wanted this he wouldn't have created Asajj or Savage. The uniqueness is just something we have to accept - and I agree that they shouldn't be too similar. Wouldn't your hypothesis require there be not KOR at all.

 

I wonder whether or not the Knights of Ren have a uniform of any sort. Do they all wear masks? Do they all wear cloaks? Do they all wear armor?

 

If the First Order is only a decade old at best and you're trying to come up with a backstory for the villain that isn't "he was Han and Leia's kid or Lukes padawan before joining the First Order," being some sort of pirate type of character might fit. Especially now that we know he's already looted Vaders helmet from his grave. Which might explain how they found the name to tweak if they were researching pirates in star wars.

It just seems like JJ wanted Kylo to be part of something in the past that isn't relevant to his current position in TFA. Just like Darth Vader in his favorite star wars movie. Something that helps mask the obvious about his family connection.

 

I think only time may tell. The fact that Kylo has a lightsaber with a crossbar might indicate that the saber and the suit are part of a uniform. But then again the armor could just be a reference to the fact that Kylo's supposed to be a Vader fanboy. Maybe he just wears the suit to emulate his idol.

 

Perhaps. I think you're overthinking on this one (not that we aren't all guilty of that on here).

 

I actually thought I was keeping it simple because I was working with the information we have.

 

I can't see them taking a really similar origin then changing one letter in the name. I think at most, they maybe liked a name and changed it a little. The character will bear no other resemblance to a Droids character I'm guessing, so not sure where it gets us anyway?

Anyway, seems like going off the other thread we will be seeing Acolytes of the Beyond.. Are these the Knights of Ren, or another group?

 

Isn't it a bit late though? His name is Kylo Ren and he's doing pirate like things such as looting helmets and raiding villages for treasure. Even Kybo's ship was a Star Destroyer.

It's not exactly Kybo Ren as Kybo sure as hell wasn't strong in the force or wielded a lightsaber, nor do they physically match up, but there could easily be inspiration from such a type of character.

Hell, if the green planet turns out to be Takodana, Kybo's base was on Tarnoonga. Though Tarnoonga is an ocean planet and his base was a rocky island surrounded by harsh seas.

 

If the basic set up of a scene, and who's involved in it is what your getting. Just how is a detail from the script itself divulged in that? Snoke telling Kylo,"Not to get sentimental" is a line that's very revealing and opens up so many questions. How is he displaying this sentimentality that makes Snoke question him? Just why is he suddenly feeling this way to begin with? Only a script would reveal such details. Otherwise it would just be, 'Kylo convenes with Snoke' surely?

 

Call sheets can say something like "Snoke tells Kylo not to be sentimental."

LOST call sheet examples

Spoiler

"Libby asks if all right"

 

It's information written up by the AD - maybe Tommy Gormley (if it's the information I think it is). I don't know how he tends to write his schedules, but as HLS has shown, it's perfectly normal. There are probably many other samples you could look up to see for yourself - I've seen some that are very, very concise, and others that are longer. I just checked back over my own call-sheets and they are full of so and so tells so and so something.

EDIT: here is the first TPM call sheet I googled:



"Sidious tells Maul to dispense with Queen and Jedi"

"Jar Jar comments on the oddness"

"Amidala confers with Paplatine".

So that covers three ways of approaching a dialogue scene.

These from TPM actually do have specific dialogue about "sitting ducks" and (huge spoiler) "may the force be with you".



Will "don't be too sentimental" be the exact line or is it paraphrased? I don't know. But there is no red flag in such info being in there. Such a description is commonplace.

It's probably better to ask this - if the MSW info is incorrect, how come it has been corroborated so often with each new official bit of info, still or clip? As yet, IMO, there is nothing to suggest MSW doesn't have what they say they have - all the evidence to date backs up whatever info they have.

It's also worth considering the other information that we've not been given that would help account for what might entail in various scenes - the info should contain the details of which cast and which doubles and stand-ins were required for each scene. What I'm not sure of is where MSW has/ had second unit info in there as well - but given the number of scenes, it seems they might/ probably do.

Of course, all that said, it's still possible that their info is incomplete or out of date or deliberately false to hide the true plan - but until we get strong evidence of that (and I've yet to see any) how much logical consideration does one place on that possibility?

 

1&2) I don't believe Lucas' intention was to show that the Jedi were either corrupt or dishonourable. You misunderstand me. I think his intention was to show that they were so bound up in their own bureaucracy, rules, regulations... they were so used to "looking inwards", that they grew disconnected and became a big part of the problem. They were shown to be literally sitting in their ivory towers whilst the galaxy was falling apart. I think there was certainly a conscious decision, on Lucas' part, to depict them that way.

When Anakin was talking about love, I don't believe for a second he was relaying teachings... he was simply justifying/rationalising his emotions for Padme. The Jedi were not allowed to love. They were not allowed to form those kind of relationships. Period. There's was a "forbidden love". That's a pretty basic and fundamental emotion to surpress. I believe Lucas was also implying that the Jedi were wrong in surpressing these kind of emotions... hence why Qui-Gon, Anakin and Luke appear much more emotional and connected with people... connected with the "living force".

3) As I've already stated, it's not about an individual darksiders here, or a lightside force user there.... it's about organised, institutional force religions affecting the galaxy wholesale. Both the Jedi and Sith were doing this at the time of the OT/PT. I think the expectation was that at the conclusion of ROTJ, that was the end of those institutional/organised religions... which doesn't exclude the notion of Luke still being a Jedi or there being other force users 'out there'. However, what it seems we have with TFA is an organised force religion of the KoR, with fleets, squadrons and starkillers at their command... and this only 30 years after Anakin supposedly restored cosmic balance. For me, that presents a big logic gap in the narrative... unless the writers choose to reshape the prophecy... which brings me back to my original hypothesis.

 

NO MAUL, PLEEEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I agree with the first two points completely, PJ. What are your thoughts on the Beyond/ Nebula rumours? It appears that our new darksiders were in the Nebula/ the Beyond until their emergence. And it's possible that Paplatine was aware of this region. How might this affect the prophecy, or does it need to in such a case? The new dark siders are not Sith. As George said, wiping out the Sith equals balance. The sith were wiped out. Snoke and the Knights of Ren don't seem to contradict this at all.

 

[SPOIL]Sounds like Skellig Michael...[/SPOIL]

 

1) You are correct in your assessment of how Lucas depicted the Jedi, however have failed to suggest to me convincingly how Anakin's actions could possibility be justified against innocent actors. Surely only the destruction of the Council and the disbanding of the institution was required. Nothing new added in the ST (for now) requires this be the case also, and therefore I am not sure why we can't take Lucas' previous quotes as they are.

You also misunderstand the Buddhist philosophy that underlies the whole love-attachment thing. Obi-Wan and Yoda love Anakin, but they understand that being attached to him would cause them potential suffering and will cause them to be drawn close to the Dark Side.

2) It's only a logical gap if you don't take the Sith to be unquie. I also don't understand - and apologies if I have missed it - how your hypothesis (adding the destruction of the Jedi) in any way helps with the addition of the KOR.

 

For me, it's largely imaterial where the come from... be it the nebula or closer to home. The question is how it is narratively squared off. I simply think it's way too convenient to say "the prophecy doesn't apply because they aren't technically Sith". As I say, I think that would just be reflective of Abrams not getting/missing the wider context. However, as already mentioned, it's not like I believe it can't be written around. It can... As I surmised, if it were to transpire that the prophecy of the chosen one originally originated from the KoR etc. then it would allow the prophecy to be reworked and for us to interpret it in new ways that allow the concept to be progressed by the writers. The risk is that by not progressing the concept it undermines some of the peril I.e. the audience will perhaps expect the force to simply produce another chosen one ready to vanquish the KoR etc. etc.

 

I like the idea of the prophecy coming from the KoR.