ST The Knights of Ren

I'll state this again:

Firstly, the crux of this argument is why do you think the KOR will change the established continuity any more than has already been changed by TCW? We simply don't have enough information.

Redemption is not just a theological concept.

Doesn't make it any more moral no matter whether or not people can rationalise it. I wonder since it seems you agree with me on morality, why you think the morality of the story being shifted to the Old Testament standard is somehow intended or even desirable?

Again, this is why the Old Testament is immoral. The notion the Force had decreed this (in the same way nature decrees the destruction of animals to extinction) is not bad in itself, but the primary problem is that it had acted through Anakin. It absolves him o his crime thematically, free will and makes him nothing more than a puppet.

That's not what I believe (when did I say the PT Jedi weren't flawed?). I just don't think the murder of innocents being passed as 'good' is good for the morality of the story.

Their destruction was inevitable, so I don't think reform was really a possibility in any case. They didn't need to be destroyed, but they had 'Crossed the Rubicon' by the time of AOTC, and had put their fate completely in the hands of the Chosen One (who really stuffed up). Theoretically at least Qui-Gon could have appeared before them and suggest reformation.

 

^ Veering way off into Saga Forums Territory...

 

May also somewhat explain his unique "explosion" when thrown down the DS II reactor shaft?

 

Which is interesting since it's depicted on the mural in Palpatine's Senate Offices. Sweet relief.

 

The EU said that the mural depicts the Hyperspace War, but canon doesn't say that anywhere.

 

It's definitely depicting a conflict of some significance in the galaxy. Perhaps it's the Knights of Ren.

 

I always figured that GL intended it to depict the time when the Sith ruled the galaxy that Sheev was referring to when he said, "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy." I thought this because of Sheev's interest in that era.

 

I always envisioned it being Sith warriors fighting for dominance.

 

I know a lot of people want the Knights of Ren to be an ancient order, which is fine with me, but I think I'd prefer them actually being something new that evolved post Sith.

If they are ancient/old, I like the idea that they've come from this "beyond."

And as I've argued for a long time, they shouldn't be Dith. There should be something different about them that distinguishes them from the Sith. One obvious difference might simply be they don't follow the Rule of Two.

 

I'm willing to bet that they are an order which was fashioned from stolen kids with force abilities who the First Order brainwashed.

The Sith wanted power and hence they kept trying to displace each other, they used the Empire to advance their own aims.

I'd say the Knights of Ren are more like religious zealots, more concerned about the collective cause and are willing to sacrifice themselves (and anyone else) for it.

 

Of course we don’t have this information at the moment. This is based on speculation to support the notion that by simply brining in the KoT, as another dark side sect/order, without expanding/progressing the context, undermines the narrative of the previous films. I am speculating on how this could be done in reference to the prophecy of the chosen one. I am obviously open to the idea that Abrams may have written something entirely fit for purpose, however (as mentioned previously), given that he probably pays the PT little thought, I suspect he won't really consider the wider themes of balance etc. and the KoR will just be another darkside sect talked up to appear 'more dangerous'. I hope that's not the case... hence the speculation.

It’s about his spiritual redemption... it’s about as theological as one can get as it’s not figurative, but literal salvation.

Morality is a social construct. One is not born with a set of complete morals that stays fixed throughout life. If the narrative is to show the complexity of moral choices, then it doesn’t de facto, make the narrative immoral. In terms of “Old Testament standard”, I’d posit that in SW it’s just a influence of/reference to a higher consciousness existing on another moral plane throughout literature. It’s very similar to how the ‘Gods’ (including crystal skull aliens) were treated in Lucas’ Indiana Jones films. It’s very similar to the ‘morality’ of something like The Iliad (which has a complex, and highly interpretational, moral element), where Homer often shows his heroes to have bad qualities and unjust causes, and his villains having heroic qualities and just causes. It’s complex.

Which is something much more philosophical and intrinsically tied into religion/theology. If one believes in ‘God’, one accepts ‘God’s Law’. Lucas gives us a universe where there is a cosmic conscience... a God, for want of a better thing. Lucas does not present us with a universe where there is nothing outside of flesh and blood. He gives us the force... established in the very first film... hence why I always come back to context. The context being not of a documentary, but a fable.

There are innocents on all sides in warfare/conflict. There are the not so innocent on all sides too. I believe that’s something that Lucas is trying to get across.

As I say, I’d be interested in seeing the version where they could have been reformed by Qui-Gon (Dooku perhaps), without enduring the fire of consequence... an ‘infintes’/parallel universe version perhaps (like the comics)? However, I don’t think that’s where Lucas was going narratively... and obviously would have resulted in a lot less drama/conflict for the story itself.

 

One of the Kylo Ren toys uses the line "I'm immune to the light" so are the knights of Ren Jedi or force users that can only use the Dark side but are not by definition Sith? Perhaps they are similar to the Knights Templar - a former sect of Jedi that used the dark side?

 

Id prefer they were something new that evolved FROM the Sith.

 

I like what Lando Rocks said above. Simple, easy to believe.

I'm trying to gather some information about the motivations behind the Knights of Ren, but it's hard even with these new lines from Kylo. The one that really throws me for a loop is the one about how he's immune to the light. Is that literal? I assume it is.

I understand that they're not Sith, but destroying the Resistance and the Jedi does sound a bit familiar. However I'm not trying to be naive, to the point that I'm going to throw out a knee jerk reaction... but it is difficult, especially without knowing more.

So factual info:

- The Knights of Ren are not Sith but work with/for the First Order and Snoke.
- Kylo Ren (at least) carries a different kind of red lightsaber, uses Dark side powers, and has no problem following a "Dark side user" in Snoke.

That's pretty much it

 

Actually we don't know that Ren has no problem with Snoke lol... so I guess you can strike that.

So if hate, fear, etc, don't drive the Knights of Ren... what does?

 

After invading the Starkiller Base, one member of the Resistance has split from her group and found herself in a massive room full of First Order soldiers. Completely surrounded by Stormtroopers with blasters and Knights of Ren with lightsabers, she seems to be totally outnumbered. Unfortunately for her enemies, though, they’ve made a big mistake: it’s not about the strength of the weapon, but the strength of the warrior that wields it.

A new Rey description. But the interesting thing is that Rey fights multiple Knights of Ren with lightsabers at Starkiller Base. Looks like Kylo isn't the only Knight of Ren fighting for the First Order.

 

info on Knights?

There has been an awakening in the Force.

One man, standing by himself in a snowy forest clearing, can feel it. The Force, and the powers of its Dark Side, are welling up within his body. He draws his lightsaber, and three red blades extend from the handle, ready for battle. From behind a shroud of black robes, beneath a shadowy mask, Kylo Ren knows that the Knights of Ren are one step closer to completing their mission.​

Join the ranks of the Knights of Ren.

Kylo Ren and the rest of his fellow knights serve the First Order and support their ultimate goal: to take over the entire galaxy, using the same power of the Force once used by the Galactic Empire. Since the Empire’s been gone for thirty years, that power is up for grabs - but the Resistance would rather see that it’s kept out of the hands of darkness. When you dress up with Star Wars costumes on Halloween, this is just one of the stories from Episode VII The Force Awakens that can inspire your imagination.​

 

Could the "Immune to the light" be meant much more literal. Remembers me of the Snoke=Force Vampire Theory somehow...

 

Might be, Caliban. Everything is on the table now.

Star did u get the Aftermath book? I didn't but I read all about it. Not gonna post anything here, though, because it's off-topic.

 

But this is based on the assumption that the KOR are different from Asajj, etc. A big assumption (an assumption you using to disregard Lucas previous comments about the Jedi not being needed to be destroyed). Aside from that your speculation assumes that the KOR are essentially using the light and dark equally (or something in that regard?) - seemingly undermined by the 'immune to the light' line. I don't think anything will need to be changed.

But we aren't talking about the morality of individual characters, etc. We are talking about the overall moral message the film sends and the themes that it perpetuates. If we have the destruction of the Jedi (including hose who are innocent) being 'okay and 'necessary' it sends a message of immorality - one which says that genocide is permissible as long it is for a greater good. I can't see what anyone else could take from that.

Fables send moral messages. What is the moral message when a 'God' permits genocide? That sometimes God is terrible? That sometimes you need to commit genocide in the name of God? Surely you can see why I find the idea immoral?

 

This was a reply to:
Jcuk The Sith ideal was power and domination. The Jedi, were about compassion and selflessness. If there really is indeed a,'grey area' between such mind sets? I'm definitely intrigued to discover just exactly what that is and how it's going to be explored.


Both: Dominion and selflessness can take on the form of authoritarianism. What if the difference is an individualized nature of the force (not in a domination sort of way). What if the Knights and by extension the first order view the Resistance/Jedi as being authoritarian. While the Knights are individualistic in the concept of peace, they are the balancer.

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/daisy-ridley-rey-in-episode-vii.50019976/page-831#post-52658775

So there are more KoR than just Ren and Snoke, this is getting more and more interesting.

 

I doubt Snoke is one of them officially. He is probably just using them and the first order for his purposes.

 

Yes. The relationship of Snoke to the Knights of Ren could be similar to that of Palpatine to the Republic...

 

We need a picture of Snoke stat