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Amph The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.

Discussion in 'Community' started by JediTrilobite, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    AquaRose, I believe Amon_Amarth's quote about a golden-haired, blue-eyed Lúthien is from an early draft of "The Lay of Leithian" that wasn't used. People just got confused. No doubt in large part because half the posters weren't speaking of Lúthien to begin with, lol. Also, note that Lúthien's eyes are gray. She's dark-haired and gray-eyed like most, if not all, of her descendants. Elrond and his three children, for example. Hell, Elros, the Kings of Númenor, Gondor and Arnor from him to Aragorn, and other Dúnedain closely related to that line. In fact, these folks are so depressingly uniform in being dark-haired and gray-eyed, despite the occasional marriages to those of different coloring, that I figure such features are an inheritance from Melian, Lúthien's mother and a Maia--one that doesn't exactly play by the rules of genetics. Of course, gray can become blue-gray, green-gray, or even silver with a little creative license. :p

    Regarding Haldir and the Elven company from Lothlórien fighting at Helm's Deep in the TTT film, I admit I don't much appreciate their presence because a) I really like the Grey Company, which includes not only Halbarad, the Rangers of the North, but Elrond's twin sons, Aragorn's foster brothers and b) I can't help thinking that Celeborn and Galadriel need those troops to fend off attacks from Dol Guldur. Unfortunately, the only mentions of both these elements in LOTR proper, during the council of Elrond, was cut from the movies, so suddenly introducing them would only cause confusion for viewers who haven't obsessively read the books.

    My one moment of inappropriate laughing at the films has to do with the Grey Company or lack thereof, too, actually: When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli stumble out of the Paths of the Dead in the ROTK EE to find the Corsairs right there, conveniently within running distance... Man, I almost bust my gut laughing. The Three Hunters clearly ran through an invisible space-time warp that instantaneously teleported them about two or three days' hard ride away to the Anduin. Though, to be sure, I often feel the Oathbreakers are a huge deus ex machina Tolkien created sometime between TTT and ROTK when he realized Aragorn was short an army. [face_laugh]

    Lastly, I'm not so sure PJ totally massacred Elrond's character so much as time-shifted reactions he may have had, say, following Aragorn and Arwen's somewhat illicit betrothal. This tangle of relationships is pretty terrible on all parties involved and, IMO, it's not entirely out of the question that, at some point in the six or so decades between Aragorn's first meeting with Arwen and FOTR, all three said things they didn't intend or later regretted. "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" is kind of vague on this point. For example, I and many LOTR fanfic writers, lol, don't believe it's coincidental that Aragorn leaves the North and Rivendell for over twenty years after he falls in love with Arwen. Certainly, Gandalf probably encourages him to do so, as he needs the knowledge and experience if he's to ever restore the kingship, but Aragorn perhaps doesn't mind an excuse to be away from Elrond. Ditto for Arwen, who returns again to Lórien.
     
  2. Merlin_Ambrosius69

    Merlin_Ambrosius69 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2008
    I love the Sil. I've read it twice through in its entirety, and individual stories (such as Beren and Luthien) I've read multiple times. The language is so beautiful, the imagery so evocative, the world so enthralling. I tend to think anyone who finds it boring simply hasn't been able to get through the first 100 pages or so, which is admittedly a bit dry and removed from the doings of identifiable characters.
     
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  3. EUReader

    EUReader Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 10, 2004
    I haven't read any Tolkien in about 5 years and have read The Fellowship of the Ring and now am 1/4 through The Two Towers. The books are so different from the movies when going back to them. I've seen the films many times since there release but this is only my third time reading The Lord of the Rings.
     
  4. snowspeeder_gunner

    snowspeeder_gunner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007
    That's exactly how I feel about it, too. I mean, I understand why they couldn't put all of that in the movie, but it sort of takes away from the whole "the world is ending" feeling of the books.
     
  5. Sith_Lord_Linkoping

    Sith_Lord_Linkoping Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Let me borrow this thread for [link=http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/857-New_Tolkien_book_Sigurd_Gudrun.php]this[/link] interesting news. :)

     
  6. NYCitygurl

    NYCitygurl Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2002
    Sounds interesting. I think I'll give it a shot, though at the library.

    Has Christopher Tolkien written anything himself, or just edited his dad's stuff?
     
  7. Thrawn1786

    Thrawn1786 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2004
    What a great thread this is! :)

    I do have a question though: I'm taking a Lord of the Rings class this semester, and even though the only assigned materials we are supposed to have are The Hobbit, LOTR(duh), and the Extended Editions of the films, would it help me if I read The History of the Lord of the Rings outside of class? The local library has them and I am a bit intrigued. Besides what the title says, what are the History... books like?

     
  8. snowspeeder_gunner

    snowspeeder_gunner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Wait, a Lord of the Rings class?

    That's really crazy! And awesome. :p

    I haven't read the histories, but they sound pretty sweet.

    Edit: Oh yeah- my recommendation for getting "more" of the story would be to read The Simarillion. It's long and the beginning is a bit hard to get through, but it's worth it.
     
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  9. NYCitygurl

    NYCitygurl Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2002
    A Lord of the Rings class? I'm jealous!!
     
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  10. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I took a Tolkien class in college and even posted a thread with the final paper I wrote for the course
     
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  11. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    I want to take a LOTR class!
     
  12. LadyLunas

    LadyLunas Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2005
    The Histories of Middle-earth (HoME) are actually a collection of the writings Tolkien developed throughout his writing of Middle-earth. They have a lot of background writing, different versions of the stories, unpublished stories, and just a variety of materials. I own several of them, and for the Tolkien fan-scholar, they are quite interesting. But for your class, no, I wouldn't consider them necessary.

    If you wanted another book, I would recommend The Silmarillion. It's the legendarium that Tolkien developed for Middle-earth. It also gives the background for some of the brief mentions in LotR (like Beren and Luthien, the different Ages, the meaning of the star of Earendil). It can be a difficult read at times, but well worth it.
     
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  13. Rogue...Jedi

    Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2000
    I had a class back in undergrad on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis/Charles Williams (informal class name: Oxford Inklings)... for Tolkien, we read the Silmarillion, which was really nice. Wasn't my first time reading the Sil, but worth it.

    As others have said, the Silmarillion would be of more use to you probably for such a class, though it is much more difficult reading than LotR or the Hobbit, and its in a much different style.

    That said, the Histories are also quite interesting, and I do recommend them, but secondary to the Silmarillion. Given the time restraints most people have, it would probably be tough to do both, especially given the time it usually takes to read and understand the Silmarillion. If you have time, though, go for it!
     
  14. mrsvos

    mrsvos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Houghton Mifflin Harcourt has acquired a previously unpublished work by J.R.R. Tolkien, written while Tolkien was a professor at Oxford during the 1920s and ?30s, before he wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The house will publish The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún in the U.S. and worldwide on May 5. The publication will mark the first extensive retelling in English narrative verse of the epic Norse tales of Sigúrd the Völsung and the Fall of the Niflungs. The book will include an introduction by Tolkien, drawn from one of his lectures on Norse literature, with commentary, and notes on the poems by Christopher Tolkien. Ken Carpenter acquired U.S. hard and soft rights for HMH from HarperCollins UK.

    http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6638236.html?nid=2286&source=title&rid=1640559556
     
  15. MrZAP

    MrZAP Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    I'm currently r-reading The Hobbit. The revised, after LotR version, of course, but I have a query: Has anyone here ever read the un-revised version with the different outcome in Riddles in the Dark?
     
  16. Amon_Amarth

    Amon_Amarth Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2005
    *is jealous because of LOTR class*
    ;)
     
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  17. Sauntaero

    Sauntaero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2003
    [link=http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html]Read it here![/link]
     
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  18. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    That's really interesting!
     
  19. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    There are like so many storys you can tell in middle earth in the 6000 year Period. Why does Tolkens son only write Historys about middle Earth and not storys.
     
  20. MasterGandalf

    MasterGandalf Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Out of respect for his father, I believe. Middle-Earth was JRR Tolkien's creation, and he worked on developing it throughout his entire life. Christopher Tolkien was the closest person to the work and was often the first to see the manuscripts, which is why he was chosen as literary executor of the Tolkien Estate, but it was very clearly his father's world and I don't think he feels comfortable adding to it. That's the impression I always had from reading the posthumous works, at least.
     
  21. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    Somebody in the Tolken family is going to write more Fantasy novels about middle Earth and besides Childern of Hurin is one of the first ones in a long time. The more middle Earth storys the better.
     
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  22. Rogue...Jedi

    Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2000
    What MG said. Some universes don't need any more stories, and Middle Earth is one of those.
     
  23. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    No way, that is alot like saying the Less Star Wars the better. I love middle-earth storys.
     
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  24. MasterGandalf

    MasterGandalf Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2009
    ^So do I (hence the name:)), but I've got to agree with Rogue...Jedi on this one. You're analogy doesn't really work for me because Star Wars has always involved lots of people- sure, George Lucas was the driving force, but the actors, screenwriters, directors, effects teams etc. all contributed to the Saga to some extent, so opening the universe up for other creative talents was the next logical step. Middle Earth, on the other hand, owes most of its power to Tolkien's unique prose style (somewhere between a modern novel and an ancient epic) and his skillful use of mytholigical forms and themes. And that's not even getting into the decades of intensive worldbuilding! All the art, movies, and other works based in that world are in direct response to or adaptation of something Tolkien did. I'd love more Middle Earth- but unless Tolkien comes back from the grave (highly unlikely), what we'd get wouldn't be anything more than a pale shadow of LOTR and the Silmarillion. I don't want that, and I doubt that Christopher Tolkien does either.
     
  25. Salty

    Salty Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 1998
    That's probably why Chris Tolkien is so adamant about protecting what he can of the Tolkien works. I'm sure he's seen what's happened to the Dune universe and would rather not see that happen to Middle Earth.