The Last Hurrah

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Liz Skywalker, Dec 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2000
    star 6
    On November 18th, after dropping a link to the JC by accident to one of my slash friends and subsequently finding myself trying to explain the history of the slash debate (along with giving her eight or so links), I decided that, while the argument was dead in the water, it wasn't quite as dead as I had thought it was.

    I have argued slash over and over again in many different threads and with mostly the same people. I have PMed Josh and discovered that the petition would need a third of the JC membership to sign it before he would reconsider his decision on slash. There are currently over 121,000 members of the JC. During the week of November 16th - November 23rd, the highest number of members logged in was 3,744. The lowest was 2,927. Getting a third of this number could be feasible. Getting a third of 121,000 members, more than half of which I would bet made fewer than twenty posts before leaving the boards, to sign a petition is impossible.


    On November the 18th I PMed Josh with a request. It was turned down. However, he encouraged me to e-mail Philip Wise for a second opinion, which I did. I have not yet received a response. It's been several weeks. I honestly don't think I'm going to be getting one.




    Slash: n.,v.,adj. A story depicting two or more males or two or more females in a sexual relationship. Not necessarily explicit, violent, or evil.







    Over and over, I and several of my friends have argued the same points to no avail. Recreated below is a point by point argument of why slash should be allowed. I have yet to see any point beyond "Josh doesn't want it" to deny slash, something he wouldn't even have to see if he didn't want to, considering that he's never posted in any Fan Fiction forum.

    I would hope the anti-slashers would give me the same respect to the argument that I have, and give me their arguments.



    Misconception Number One: Slash Is Inherently Violent:

    Not true. The term 'slash' refers to the '/' between the names of the members of the pairing. For example, "Luke/Wedge" would refer to a relationship between Luke and Wedge that transcends friendship. It could be only one-sided (Wedge angsting over Luke), it could be schmoop (plotless sweetness, for example, not necessarily a high rating), it could be anything.

    There are some violent stories in slash. For example, there are rape fics, non-con fics (the difference is extremely small between rape and non-consensual), BDSM fics (not necessarily rape, but very often violent), and torture fics. But, of course, these occur in heterosexual fics, as well as in gen fics. They are *not* a necessary part of slash and such fics will almost always come equipped with warnings galore.

    Also, such elements will drive the rating above the PG-13 level and therefore they wouldn't be allowed on the JC anyway.



    Misconception Number Two: Slash Is Inherently Explicit And/Or High Rating:

    Because of modern stupidity and boorishness, gay themes make a movie rate higher. However, slash can be a mild PG. It doesn't have to be explicit any more than a stereotypical teenage love letter is explicit.

    Many newbie slash writers slap an 'R' or 'NC-17' on all their stories, or make 'R' the low water mark. This is simply because we have been told since we were children that anything gay is Bad and must be hidden behind ratings.

    Personally, my default rating is PG-13. It used to be PG, but lately I've been adding elements to my stories that have begged a higher watermark.




    Misconception Number Three: Slash Is Not Family Friendly:

    This one stems from the idea that homosexuality is not family friendly. Would I read slash fan fiction to my family during dinner? No. Would I read heterosexual fan fiction to my family during dinner? No. To the question of which would be more likely to be shown on television: het or slash, the answer is undoubtedly het.

    However, I point you to shows like Will and Grace that show during Prime Time/>
  2. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    So what exactly is slash? ?[face_plain]
  3. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    No one is going to boycott the JC just because there is one forum, one forum, in which people can post stories where two men or two women love each other.

    I'm sure there are a good fifteen people who are childish enough to do this. :p Otherwise, great post! :D
  4. GRANDADMIRALAXLROSE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 7
    A guitarist for Velvet Revolver and/or a type of fanfic that is more explicit.
  5. Errant_Venture Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 6
  6. Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2000
    star 6
    So what exactly is slash?

    Gay fan fiction. No more, no less. Gay fan fiction.



    or a type of fanfic that is more explicit.

    *screams*
  7. GRANDADMIRALAXLROSE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 7
  8. Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2000
    star 6
    Hasn't it been turned down repeatedly?

    Yes. Which I admitted. But I've just spent six pages giving my reasons for. All I'm asking is that Josh, or his representative, give me the same courtesy and give me a real reason why not.
  9. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Is it really that important to you? I mean, honestly, I don't care either way, its not like I'm gonna read it, but I don't see what the big deal is. Why can't you just post it somewhere else?

    [image=http://introwebnet.com/forums/images/smiles/deadhorse.gif]
  10. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Personally, my opinion is that we're a family friendly site.

    That means that nothing at all explicit should be posted, whether it be in terms of homosexual acts or innuendo, or heterosexual acts or innuendo.

    But provided that the author keeps the fanfic at the level allowed by the JC policy, then I really dont care if a character is gay or not, just like I dont care if a character is straight or not.

    Just make sure that no stories have characters doing dirty things that arent allowed in a family-friendly atmosphere. Provided that is adhered to, any lifestyle choices really doesnt worry me.

    Of course, the mods dont have much choice in the matter, so....
  11. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 9
    Liz, can't you just write fanfic where the characters in question are of undetermined gender? As there would be no mention of "private parts" anyway, I'd wager a clever author could write a story, especially one in a fictional universe, where it is unclear whether the characters in a relationship are homo or heterosexual.

    If it's imperative you use well known movie characters like Han & Luke (for example) in a relationship in fanfic, you know that's not going to fly with Josh...

  12. Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2000
    star 6
    Is it really that important to you?

    Considering that I've been argueing this point for over ten months? Yes.



    I mean, honestly, I don't care either way, its not like I'm gonna read it, but I don't see what the big deal is. Why can't you just post it somewhere else?

    You already admit that you won't read it. So why does it bother you that some would post it here?



    Liz, can't you just write fanfic where the characters in question are of undetermined gender?

    Been there. Done that. An interesting challenge, but in the end, saying "penetration occured" just doesn't cut it.



    If it's imperative you use well known movie characters like Han & Luke (for example) in a relationship in fanfic, you know that's not going to fly with Josh...


    All I want are his reasons. Really. I've already received a definite 'no'. Right now I just want to know why.




    EDIT: Ah, thank you, whoever defaulted my title. [face_love]
  13. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    You already admit that you won't read it. So why does it bother you that some would post it here?

    What I'm saying is that I don't care if you post it here or not, but since the guy in charge does, it can't be that hard to post it elsewhere.

    This is an internet message board. I think everyone should get over it and move on to other places if its that big of a deal. I'm sure there's other places out there that would be more than happy to have your work posted.
  14. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    If it's "just an internet message board", and not worth the trouble of trying to instigate change, then Comms is relatively useless.

    Yes, this is "just the internet". That's why we're talking about this on the internet. "taking it too far" would be bringing into offline life, like egging Joshua Griffin's house.

    Basically, stop trying to appear above all this by saying "I don't care". If you don't care, don't post.

    Not everyone is so timid.
  15. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Well, I just mod here and my opinion doesn't count for anything, but I agree with Liz. I consider a ban on same-sex romance discrimination against gays, and that to me is just as dispicable as racism or sexism.

    The argument is frequently made that slash fic isn't allowed here because it isn't "family friendly," that is, it doesn't mesh with the values of some conservative American families. If there were enough people out there who didn't like blacks, would this site have to protect racist values as well?
  16. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
  17. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Well then, the question you have to ask yourself is: are you SURE that there's homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality or transgenderism in the GFFA?

    If not, why bother?

    I suppose it ultimately boils down to this -- "so what?"

    So you can't post slash here. So what?

    You can't post curse words here (and those happen in real life).
    You can't flame other members here (and that happens in real life. Frequently, in my case!)
    You can't say you like Star Trek here (and that happens in real life... so I'm told...)

    Okay, I kid, I kid... but the point's valid.

    What is the HUGE IMPORTANT EARTH-SHATTERING issue that needs to be decided, Jean-Luc Picard-style, that the line needs to be drawn HERE and no further.

    The curse word limit is "if it's allowed in the EU, it's okay" as a general rule and then "common sense" governing the rest. Although we (I think) know that's not the basis for the "no slash" policy, it's as good a reason as any. Because there doesn't really NEED to be a reason, does there?

    Do you feel oppressed as a sexuality minority here?

    If so, do you think it's any more than us Jews when those crucifix icons roll around in "Holiday Banner Season?" (though, I do suppose you're hosed either way... sorry... :( )

    But what's the compelling case here?
  18. Errant_Venture Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 6
    After being enlightened some about this situation, I agree that the policy should permit gay relationships. Though I'm not sure I would go so far as to deem it on the same scale as racism. But I do agree with you!
  19. Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2000
    star 6
    Well then, the question you have to ask yourself is: are you SURE that there's homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality or transgenderism in the GFFA?

    The question you have to ask yourself is: are you SURE there isn't sexual diversity in the GFFA?




    So you can't post slash here. So what?


    Because those points you made, I understand the reasoning behind them. They're logical. It's like saying that killing isn't conclusive for a happy society.

    I don't get why slash isn't allowed.




    Do you feel oppressed as a sexuality minority here?


    Yes.



    If so, do you think it's any more than us Jews when those crucifix icons roll around in "Holiday Banner Season?"

    I don't care about Christmas. It honestly doesn't affect me either way. I don't frankly care about Chanuka either, considering that it's a pretty minor holiday. And as an atheist, I resist the whole idea that this is holiday season. ;)
  20. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah, but you get the day off! ;)
  21. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    I agree 100% with DLM's post.

    There is no real reason why a PG rated slash fic is not family friendly.

    Condemming the homosexual lifestyle is just like criticizing someone for their skin color.
  22. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    But provided that the author keeps the fanfic at the level allowed by the JC policy, then I really dont care if a character is gay or not, just like I dont care if a character is straight or not.

    I agree with Dags. Personally, I don't think there should be an issue as long as the fic adheres to the "family friendly" statute and doesn't contain explicit sexual content. It wouldn't matter to me whether the fic contained heterosexual or homosexual relationships as long as it didn't cross that line.
  23. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    The question you have to ask yourself is: are you SURE there isn't sexual diversity in the GFFA?

    But the onus isn't on me to proof the contra-positive.

    George, and his minions through the EU, have chosen to present EXACTLY one (and a half) types of sexual relations: that between a man and a woman. They can be different SPECIES, but always different gendered. So since that's so carefully planned out, it's not up to me to prove the counter-argument. :)

    While I understand the need to press social issues on a resisting populace... this isn't that place. And the burden is on those who desire change to show demonstrably, why the change is both wanted and needed.

    And, as much as I support GLBT issues in real-life, there's no way I'd want to read about a bi-curious Ani/Jar-Jar relationship. ;)
  24. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    In nearly every fandom (except Buffy) there are only heterosexual relationships.

    How many gay relationships are in LOTR? And no, the obvious lust between Sam and Frodo doesn't count; we want actual relationships.
  25. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    bi-curious Ani/Jar-Jar relationship

    That's NOT the sort of image I wanted in my head just before I went to bed. :( :p
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.