The Last Hurrah

Victoria's Secret is PG?

Sure. You see people in bras and panties in PG-rated movies.

 

Wait one gizzod dizzamned minute.

Victoria's Secret, which can show specials on prime time network TV, can't be linked to? I think that warrants the posting of another thread. But I wanna make sure I heard you right first.

 

You're comparing almost-naked models being sexilized with light humor???

 

Victoria's Secret, which can show specials on prime time network TV, can't be linked to? I think that warrants the posting of another thread. But I wanna make sure I heard you right first.

I had thought that was the case. It is entirely possible that I'm mistaken.

 

Meh, I don't feel like posting a thread on it anyway. I already got a thread going in here. I'll just wait till whenever I wanna post a pic of a chick in lingerie, and then post a thread if I get edited.

 

Liz...
"The. Point. Of. This. Thread. Is. To. Get. Josh's. Reasons. For. Not. Allowing. Slash. Period."

In case you might have missed it earlier. (Not surprisingly given in the thread, "Slash Isn't Allowed on the JC")...

Josh's. Reasons. For. Not. Allowing. Slash. Period.:

---

Gay-LenKenobi
11/12/02 6:24am
I don't think that is what TF.N and it's owner/s are saying at all.

It's a highly controversial topic and there are a large number of parents out there who do not want their children to be exposed to anything that depicts homosexual lifestyles. There is a reason that 'Will and Grace' is aired at 9pm in the US, because they believe most children will already be in bed and not still watching television. And the show is still the target of protests and boycotts.

And with all of that, all they do is TALK about being gay. They don't makeout and there aren't any bedroom scenes. For the majority of the series, 'Will' has been single and while 'Jack' jokes about being promiscuous, he is rarely, if ever, seen with another man.

Yet it still angers some parents and powerful political groups. So instead of opening themselves up to hate mail, criticism, and boycotts of their own, the TF.N staff/owners has decided to make a call that avoids all that. They have no obligation to break down any walls of prejudice against slash fiction OR help reduce bias against homosexuals. SW doesn't depict any homosexual relationships, but no one is accusing GL of declaring homosexuality wrong by that omission. They have every right to dictate what they will allow on their site and message boards. They aren't stating their opinion about gays and lesbians with this policy, they are avoiding conflict.[hr][b]
Joshua Griffin
11/12/02 7:18am
[u]If anyone wants to know what I think, simply read Gay-LenKenobi's post directly above this one.

I simply could not say it better myself.[/u]

Josh[/b][hr][/ul]

 

Thanks for that, we didn't see it the first 452 times it was posted.

 

That's what I figured, Saint. You're welcome.

 

That would explain why no one ever bothers to acknowledge it then.

AYBABTU?

 

So TFN staff is afraid of the religious right. Juuuuust peachy.

So if it's Josh's site, why do fringe groups ala the AFA and such get to decide policy?

 

"So TFN staff is afraid of the religious right. Juuuuust peachy."

What a lovely straw-man argument. Apparently, Gay-LenKenobi's post isn't the only thing you've not read.

What TF.n is afraid of is getting closed by LFL, because LFL doesn't allow its characters to be placed into slash stories. Now, if you were to actually get Lucas to change his mind, that would be a major victory, since Josh would be the only hurdle left.

Or you could simply continue making ridiculous conclusions in an attempt to appear to be actually contributing to this thread.

BTW, I don't see either scenario changing, but that's just me.

"why do fringe groups ala the AFA and such get to decide policy?"

Josh is allowed to make his decisions with whatever input he feels is appropriate. Why is this a problem to you? Do you take the advice of every single person who offers it to you? ?

 

"What TF.n is afraid of is getting closed by LFL, because LFL doesn't allow its characters to be placed into slash stories."

Where you've gotten this idea, I don't know. LFL doesn't like it's characters put in sexually explicit stories, regardless of the genders of said characters. The only thing I've seen from LFL that even comes close to this issue is a C&D sent to someone who was posting graphic depictions of Star Wars characters involved in sexual acts. No one is asking for that here.

 

Where you've gotten this idea, I don't know.

I do! By reading this thread all the way through, and finding a relevant LFL policy within.

 

Thank you, Gandalf.

 

"Lucasfilm has suppressed Skywalker slash on the grounds that it harms the Star Wars image, but it allows PG-rated fanfic."

Well lookee here. Far from clear, this statement is.

Does it mean that LFL allows PG fanfic, but not PG slash fanfic? Does it mean they've suppressed explicit slash, but allow PG fanfic, including PG slash?

Just what is going on?

 

Lucasfilm has banned slash, regardless of the rating. It's just one more arbitrary limit in a world of arbitrary limits. As copyright holders, it is theire right. Therefore, if TF.n wishes to exist as a SW board, it cannot allow slash.

Clear?

 

honestly, george lucas and lucasfilm would care less if a few kids on a message board are posting gay fan fic instead of regular fan fic. even if they DID take any kind of interest in the matter, which is a long shot in itself, they'd never do anything about it anyway for fear of recieving the same kind of criticism from the public/media that josh is getting from jc members for this archaic policy.

also: re the star wars official boards (if it hasn't been brought up in the last few pages already) they don't allow fan fic at all, if i'm not mistaken.

 

"Lucasfilm has banned slash, regardless of the rating."

I hate to bust out the PPOR stick, but I think it's warranted here.

 

I will go so far as to say I need to be free to mention and portray gay relationships in my writing. The old writer's saw of "write what you know" applies here, even though we are talking speculative fan fiction. I find this artificial imposition limits my exploration of characters and conflicts, it bars me from developing certain characters and storylines the way they seem to need, and it prohibits a degree of realism within my stories.

Isn't that a wee bit extreme? It's not like Josh is coming into your home and burning every bit of slash he sees. Nor is he preventing you from posting it on the entirety of the internet. You're free to write all the slash you want, you just can't (at this point) post it here.

No one is going to arrest Josh if he allows slash here.

You don't think it's possible (even remotely) that LFL might come along and threaten to shut down TF.N if they find slash here? Granted, it might not hurt to try it and see what happens, but to think that that's not even a possibility is pretty short-sighted.

If there were no way to change policy, however, this Coms forum wouldn't exist.

But Josh rarely gets involved to the degree he has on the slash issue. That's the point of the Head Admin position and the rest of the administration. They make decisions as they see fit, but occasionally there are decisions that only Josh makes, and this is one of them. Policy can be changed, but that doesn't mean it will always be changed just because people demand it.

I don't see a need for a sports forum.

There's that word again. There's no need for anything here. No need for Comms, no need for the JCC, the Senate, the Amphitheatre, Fan Force, the multitude of Star Wars forums, no need for any Fan Fiction. It's all a want.

I want an answer from Josh with his reasons.

You've already posted his reasons from another thread. They weren't his words, but they were still his reasons.

Thanks for that, we didn't see it the first 452 times it was posted.

According to Liz, that's all she wants. Josh's reasons. His reasons have been repeatedly posted, yet it's not good enough. So why would any other reasons be good enough, which leads me to wonder about what Vertical said. Is Josh going to be repeatedly asked to give reasons in the hopes that he'll say something along the lines that he doesn't like gay people, hoping to cause even more controversy and painting him into a corner?

Does it mean that LFL allows PG fanfic, but not PG slash fanfic? Does it mean they've suppressed explicit slash, but allow PG fanfic, including PG slash?

The way it's written seems to indicate that LFL considers all slash (or Skywalker-slash, since that's all it refers to) to be a higher rating than PG.

Amazing.

 

Ok so basically people want to write about stories involving two male characters in a relationship? Thats what it boils down to?

Well I've never read Slash fics before and dont really care to. I have a friend who loves to read and write Hobbit Slash fics though so I kinda understand them. I know that there are all kinds of slash fics out there. I never really knew that it meant relationships of an homosexual nature. I thought that it was just supposed to be about characters that you would never ever see hook up well hook up. IE Leia and Chewie or Michaelangelo and Donetello or Capt. Jack Sparrow and Obi-wan Kenobi.

Well my opinion is this. Why the hell not? I mean as long as the Slash fic does not involve any sexual references or anything. I mean nothing beyond a kiss. If you consider a kiss sexual well then thats up to you. But basically it should follow the guidelines of all the other fan fics on this board. I mean I dont think that in the fan fics we currently have there were ever scenes that depict Obi-wan and Sabe or whoever knocking boots. Am I right?

Last I check its not illegal to write fan fics. I mean as long as they are not sold for profits right? And last I check Male/Male or Female/Female (especially...hehehe) has become more and more of the norm. I mean homosexuality is not against the law is it?? I mean I think in some states gay marriage is but still you can find gay couples in almost every town in the world. The point is folks its out there.

I for think that Josh needs to get the stick out of his butt (OMG was that a gay joke!!??) no it wasn't. Nor is it a flame. Its just a metaphor saying that Josh may be a little too uptight about some things. I mean I do think its wonderful that he has helped bring such a huge chunk of the Star Wars community together. However lighten up dude. And some of you other mods too. I know some of you want to but you're just bound by the TOS. You have to be 13 years old to join this community correct? So basically these forums are PG-13. Do you know what a 13 year old is like? They curse and are well aware of homosexuality and sex and all kinds of stuff that maybe some of us did not know when we were 13. Time are different. A few curse words would not affect them. They probably hear worse from there own mother. I know I did when I was 13. But the same applies to homosexuality. A 13 year old knows what it is. So why cant Slash fics be here? As long as it follows the guide lines then why not?

One last thing. I dont think Lucasfilm will really care all that much about it if on some internet messageboard there is some stories, written by fans, about Luke and Han being a little too sweet on each other. Personally I think Josh, and no I am not chittin with you, I think LFL may be much more upset with all those grade A juicy spoilers you guys put out there. I admit I live for the spoilers! But still I would think that LFL's priority would be to stop the spoilers then to stop some little fan fic about Vader and the Emperor taking ballet lessons. Or whatever!?

I dont really care for Slash fics. I mean I really dont. Its not something that I would write about. Then again I would not write a story about the Three Stooges. But other people would. This is about artistic freedom. Let the people have their fun. Let them write about what they want. As long as they follow the rules.

 

Are you willing to risk these boards on that hunch? Even if you were, why should Josh take the risk? While pondering, keep in mind, minimalizing the risk in your own mind has no effect on the possible actions of LFL.

I don't feel like trading the boards for slash, which would be ironic, because then both would be lost, at least on this site.

Good thing slash is allowed on other sites.

"I hate to bust out the PPOR stick, but I think it's warranted here."

Did you read the article?

ARE YOU READING THIS THREAD?!?

 

I got an IM asking me to come swooping in here like SWAT and help.

So..... DROP THE GUN!

But seriously, I said a long time ago that it is my opinion that TFN should allow Fan Fiction that depicts characters as Homosexual or Bisexual so long as it doesn't violate any other rules.

The inherant problem here is this:

The sale, auction, lease, loan, gift, trade or barter, or use of any of the text, graphics, photographs, audio and/or video material or stills from audiovisual material or any other materials contained herein, for any other purpose, in any form, media or technology now known or hereafter developed, including the use of any of the aforementioned materials on any other Web site or networked computer environment, without a prior written consent from Lucas, is expressly prohibited. The creation of derivative works based on the materials contained herein including, but not limited to, products, services, fonts, icons, link buttons, wallpaper, desktop themes, on-line postcards and greeting cards and unlicensed merchandise (whether sold, bartered or given away) is expressly prohibited.

-LucasFilm Terms of Use (which by all appearances is the same at StarWars.com)

If we ask LFL if we're allowed to host Slash, they have to say no because it's their property and all, copywrite all that good stuff. Fan Fiction is not legally allowed if I am correct (beleive it or not I'm wrong somtimes )

If we don't ask, and host Slash, and this pushes LFL too far, they might have their hand forced and do something more drastic to TFN, the JC, or more probably, both.

Josh and Phillip are riding the razor end between accepted illegality and unaccepted illegality. I'm not lieing when I tell you that they deal with people giving them information that they are not allowed to post or we will be shut down. (If I get that once in a while, they get it very often)

Based on these factors, I think it is in the best interest of TFN not to allow Slash fan fiction especially when the current legal prescedent is not to allow Star Wars Slash Fan Fiction.

I symathise with you, I do. I think you should have a board and site where you can write whatever Fan Fiction you like. I understand the importance and convience of consolodating sites and databases.

So where do we go from here:
-Maybe, maybe we can get a completely unofficial "Tis sokay" from LFL but I wouldn't hold my breath.
-Another site with the capabilities and resources of this one. Maybe the TFN Fan Fiction administrators would take pity upon you and give you a push in setting it up.
-Research Legal Presedence concerning LFL and Slash Fan Fiction. It has to be public record somewhere, I'm just not interested in this at all to search for it. Quote me impartial facts with full background and no exclusion of cases and We'll listen.

But my SWAT training wasn't too good and I swung to the other side in midrescue.

And to whoever it was that IM-ed me, Why the Heck did you bring me back into this? I was barely in it to begin with.

¤Night

 

According to Liz, that's all she wants. Josh's reasons. His reasons have been repeatedly posted, yet it's not good enough. So why would any other reasons be good enough, which leads me to wonder about what Vertical said. Is Josh going to be repeatedly asked to give reasons in the hopes that he'll say something along the lines that he doesn't like gay people, hoping to cause even more controversy and painting him into a corner?

Something tells me this is what some people are looking for...

Vertical

 

Not that doing so would change LFL's policy, or Josh's mind.

 

LFL's policy on this is not clear, and don't pretend like it is.