The Last Hurrah

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Liz Skywalker, Dec 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    And with all of that, all they do is TALK about being gay. They don't makeout and there aren't any bedroom scenes. For the majority of the series, 'Will' has been single and while 'Jack' jokes about being promiscuous, he is rarely, if ever, seen with another man.

    Yet it still angers some parents and powerful political groups.


    Sounds like some "parents and powerful political groups" are in desperate need of a life. I mean, really--there are parents out there who are still trying to pretend that no one is gay? *shakes head* Of course with all the things I've run into teaching school, I shouldn't be surprised.

    But anyway--I don't think anyone here, at least not me, is suggesting that we be allowed to have full-blown nudity scenes in fan fic between two members of the same sex. Just scenes between two members of the same sex that are equal to scenes between two members of the opposite sex.

    Has anyone thought that interspecies fic is allowed as long as the beings are sentient--such as human/Bothan or human/Twi'lek (not sure about human/Gungan)--on the ground that "it's in the EU"?

    This is a hell of a lot more disgusting than slash fic could ever be and amounts to bestiality IMHO. I'm about as far from being a prude as you can get, so if some form of sexuality grosses me out, it's pretty bad.

    The way things have always worked around here concerning LFL is: post anything until LFL tells you to stop. That's how it works with spoilers and inside information and such. Why is this different?

    Good point. We're not allowed to post fanfic with homosexual characters because of Lucasfilm, but we're allowed to post information from every Joe Schmoe who claimed that his sister's boyfriend's brother's roommate's uncle saw Rick McCallum at Starbucks last night getting a latte, and it's bought lock stock and barrel as a bona fide "spoiler"?
  2. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Actually, if he'd pop in here and say that, I would buy it."

    So it's got to be a face-to-face every single time this comes up? Is that fair to Josh? I don't think so.

    "What I have a problem with is his disagreeing for religious reasons--that seems to me that he's forcing everyone here to conform to his religious views. I come here to discuss Star Wars, not to listen to a sermon."

    Sorry, but that's irrelevant, and let's not go to extremes about sermonizing. Since you've complained about how little he's stated on the subject, please point out where he's talked about the specific problems and consequences of slash on the minds of youth. All he's talked about are potential problems to the boards.

    "I either ignore it or tell them to bite me, depending on the circumstances."

    Seems Josh has been ignoring this thread, but I guess if it's okay for you to do it, then why not him. Would you rather he told you to "bite him"? :D

    "You mean would I allow a conservative who was always trying to convert me to his/her social beliefs to rent a room from me? Yes. Would I allow someone who didn't bathe to rent a room from me? Yes. Would I allow someone who insults Anakin Skywalker to rent a room from me? Yes. "

    My question was...where do you draw the line? At what point would you say "this much, and no more"?

    "And if Lucasfilm is shutting down sites that allow homosexual fan fiction, they've got a long way to go before they reach this one."

    So we go ahead and post slash and bide our time? Lovely. Do it on your own boards. Josh is not obligated to risk his boards for your personal needs.

    "No, because I wear a shirt and shoes in public anyway so I really don't care."

    Along that line of reasoning, I (and apparently Josh) don't read or appreciate slash fan-fic, so he and I don't care.

    You appear to practice the very "it doesn't bother me, so why bother doing it" attitude that Josh is being accused of.

    You know what, it's perfectly okay as well. Pots and kettles, rejoice in your similarities! :D

    "Sounds like some "parents and powerful political groups" are in desperate need of a life."

    As well as those who need same-sex stories on their favorite SW board to make their lives complete.

    "there are parents out there who are still trying to pretend that no one is gay?"

    In AGFFA, apparently so. Then again, it is Lucas' galaxy, is it not? Has he no say in what goes on in it?

    "Just scenes between two members of the same sex that are equal to scenes between two members of the opposite sex."

    More criteria. Will this pertain to all fan-fic? If equal numbers aren't reached, will fan-fic authors be required to limit the number of heterosexual stories?

    "Good point. We're not allowed to post fanfic with homosexual characters because of Lucasfilm, but we're allowed to post information from every Joe Schmoe who claimed that his sister's boyfriend's brother's roommate's uncle saw Rick McCallum at Starbucks last night getting a latte, and it's bought lock stock and barrel as a bona fide "spoiler"?"

    In case you missed it, the difference is that everything you listed after "Lucasfilm" is not a licensed and copyrighted idea of Lucasfilm, which means they have little say over it. I guess it can't be said, then, that Josh doesn't allow for (much less sermonize against) homosexuality, since he does allow non-Star Wars homosexual discussion on his boards. Go figure.
  3. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I'll ignore the flames in the rest of your post and answer the one part of it that actually contributes something to discussion rather than insulting me.

    My question was...where do you draw the line? At what point would you say "this much, and no more"?

    Is it against the law? (If you're going to make a rule that says canon characters can't be gay because they weren't in the films, you need to lose all the Obidala fics too.)

  4. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    The line is drawn where Josh determines it to be. Don't over complicate things. It's that simple.
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    a_g...
    Please. The very definition of bestiality is between humans and "lower animals." That is what bestiality is. On earth, we don't have other "equal sentients" or "higher sentients." So, any animal is bestiality.

    That's not the case with science-fiction where all bets are off, because there may be equal-level or even higher-level species.

    And that's not "bestiality" at all. It is inter-species.

    Suggesting that a relationship with a Bothan and a human is like a relationship with a human and a dog is very much misinformed.

    "Is it against the law?"

    In the Star Wars galaxy, no. Inter-species relationships between presumably equal- species is not against the law (well, outside of Imperial law. But, hopefully, you're not siding with policies developed by evil speciist facists ruled by an evil Sithlord.)
  6. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Did I take a wrong turn somewhere? I'm looking for the website that talks about Star Wars. :)
  7. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Sape: Unless I was mistaken, MeBe was asking where I would draw the line as far as allowing someone to do something on my property that I found personally offensive. I could be wrong though.

    Just to make things clear, the main reason I am fighting this is because I don't like the hypocrisy. There is a line drawn at the PG level for what heterosexual characters can do in their fics. Any pairings are allowed, including pairings that aren't in the movies. The only thing that isn't allowed is fanfic with homosexual characters, and from what I've ascertained from this thread, it's either for religious reasons or because Josh is afraid of screaming religious-right parents.

    I happen to know of some posters who once made great contributions to this board who have left because of the bigotry here against homosexuals. They, like I, were probably made to feel like pariahs, talked to rudely, and told "If you don't like it, leave." I was sad to see them go. Does TF.N want to be known as the site "for the fans, by the fans" or as the site that allows people to talk hatefully to each other (and yes, that is how it is known in many circles), a site that allows a certain elite group or groups to talk trash to other posters, humiliate newbies, and bully people?
  8. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    So we can write and post a fic with a Padme/Jar Jar relationship? :D

    hoooray! :D
  9. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    And that's fine. But understand that I am respectfully saying that that is irrelevant. What I think is the line is irrelevant. Come to my website I pay for, it's relevant. Go to the website you own, yours is relevant.
  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "I'll ignore the flames in the rest of your post"

    Another "easy-out", eh? Come on, let's hear some real reponses. Heaven forbid you should ignore a post you choose not to answer, much like Josh is apparently doing, and getting blasted for.

    Fact is, most of the points and statements you make can easily be used against your position, and you know it. Since you feel free to act this way, then why complain about Josh doing it?

    For all the talk of Josh sermonizing, you are the one coming across with a "holier than thou" attitude, and you don't even own these boards. Josh appears to be handling this issue much better than you are.

    "Is it against the law?"

    We are talking about personal tastes and morality. Besides, you still haven't addressed the fact that Josh does allow non-SW homosexual posts. Where LFL says no, Josh doesn't. Is this such a difficult concept to grasp? You've not shown any sermonizing by Josh to support your previous assertion as to his motives.
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Stackpole,
    Corran Horn had... ummmmm... "relations" with... ummmm... this (No, not Han. Tthe big, furry otter):
    <img src="http://www.angelfire.com/id/adukes/swgm/t_swgm10.jpg">

    And if anyone knows of good Whaladonami fic, be sure to let me know.
  12. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Sape: Alright, point taken.

    MeBe: Another "easy-out", eh? Come on, let's hear some real reponses.

    You want to ask me in a polite way what you really want to know? Because any response I give to the rest of that post of yours, as rudely as it sits, would get me banned.

    Call me Southern--I respond a whole lot better to polite conversation. I return rudeness with rudeness; however, I've got these blue colors and I don't have the freedom to do that here, and I am not about to allow you to piss me off enough to put a bannable post up.

  13. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Because any response I give to the rest of that post of yours, as rudely as it sits, would get me banned."

    Seems to me the problem would be your response then, and not my post. You didn't seem to mind taking generalized (and unsubstantiated) pot-shots at Josh, I might add. Go figure.

    "I return rudeness with rudeness; however, I've got these blue colors and I don't have the freedom to do that here."

    So it doesn't take a sermon to point out limits after all then? Glad we got that straightened out.
  14. Isbeth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 4
    I dunno guys, to me, after reading the posts in this thread, it seems pretty clear why Josh doesn't wanna come here. It seems to be getting pretty ugly. :( I am wondering why a mod hasn't locked this thread yet. :confused:It seems to be going no where.

    And so it is ok to have sex with a non human, but not someone of the same sex? Isn't that odd? Well I guess if it were a non-human of a different sex than the human? :confused: If you ask me this thread is getting nuttier and nuttier. And what pray tell is a Whaladonami? :confused:

    BTW, Just for grins, I carefully re-read the Terms of Service. It seems to me the sexual orientation stuff seems rather fuzzy to me. Does it imply we can't tell one another our sexual orientation even in a PM? :confused: That sounds nutz. :confused:
  15. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Agreed. Josh isn't sermonizing to anyone when banning slash. He simply doesn't want to hear sermonizing from parents or LFL about it. Why should he allow something that's only going to give him more headaches from others? ?[face_plain]
  16. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Genghis, I have read the X-wing series many times over; I know Corran Horn nailed a Selonian :p

    My question is clear, and unaswered.
  17. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "and I am not about to allow you to piss me off enough to put a bannable post up."

    Interesting edit. Are you pissed by my attitude, or because I am right?

    Surely, you are capable of responding without getting yourself in trouble, or would you simply flame and then blame it on me?
  18. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Stackpole...
    "Genghis, I have read the X-wing series many times over; I know Corran Horn nailed a Selonian"

    Imagine, for a second, the conversation between heterosexual male colleagues Mike and Timothy:
      While laying in bed together in a nonsexual way, Tim said to his heterosexual male colleague, "Man, did you see what Roger McBride-Allen did to my beloved Mara Jade!?! He paired her virginess up with Lando Calrissian. The horror, the horror. Now I'm going to have to write a whole duology now to undo this affront to the red-headed saint."

      Mike first smiled at his heterosexual male colleage. Then, he looked longingly into Timothy's eyes and tenderly replied to him, "Hey, buddy. At least you didn't find out after the fact that she did a giant ferret. You would think LFL would say 'Hey, Mike, I hope you know Selonians are aliens. They're a giant rodent.' But noooooooo..."
  19. Night4554 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2000
    star 5
    I searched for an hour (I'd like someone to mail me an hour for my effort, why am I doing this?) and found virtually nothing in this area except a lot of references to "bad things" I'll omit these in the interest of hearsay.

    NYTimes Aricle, 2001 This archived article touches on Lucas' Protection of Copywrites. I can not read the article, I'm not going to pay for it. Maybe someone with access could show us the relevant tidbits.

    ¤Night
  20. Stackpole_The_Hobbit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
  21. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Night...
    "This archived article touches on Lucas' Protection of Copywrites."

    IIRC, I think I know of another one. Check out the "Rebels With A Cause" article in the July, 1996 (Arnold Schwarzenneger on the cover for Erasure) issue of Cinescape Magazine for LFL's activity in protecting its Star Wars copyrights/trademarks on the internet.

    At the time, their concerns were general piracy, copyright and trademark infringement (use of characters, names, places, pictures, sounds, etc.) as related to derivative works as opposed to specific fan-fic or slash issues.

    If your local library doesn't have a copy, then IIRC, T'bone has some affiliation with Cinescape magazine, right?
  22. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Chilling Effects has some good resources on the legal issues surrounding fanfic. For example, on their fanfic page, they state:
    A copyright owner can stop someone else from (1) copying, (2) distributing, (3) performing, or (4) displaying the characters without the permission of the owner. The owner also can stop someone from (5) creating "derivative works". A derivative work is a new work based on someone else's intellectual property. ... Still, such stories may threaten commercial copyright owners seeking to protect a certain image of their characters. For example, a subgenre of fan fiction called "slash" describes homosexual relationships between characters. Some copyright holders may not want their characters portrayed in compromising situations.
    In thier FAQ, they add to this.
    Question: What is fair use and how does it relate to Fan Fiction?

    Answer:
    The fair use doctrine says that otherwise copyrighted works may be used for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research. To decide whether a use is "fair use" or not, courts consider:

    (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
    (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
    (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    Parody is also fair use.

    Under this doctrine, artists have been permitted to create and display their art even if it uses copyrighted works of others. See Court Allows Artist to Sell Barbie Art, for an example.

    There is a strong argument that many fan fiction stories are transformative since they create a different persona and set of events for the character. To create a new story cannot be seen as the same as posting video clips on a website. There must be a balancing between protecting copyrights in order to encourage innovation by authors and between allowing works to be in the public domain to allow creative uses.

    Whether a court will view this as the case for a particular work of fan fiction depends on how much of the story relies on copyrighted materials, whether the story is sold, or affects the market for the copyrighted work, and other factors. There is no easy answer to the question, which is why it is often a good idea to consult a lawyer who can assess the particular facts of your case.

    Question: Is FanFic an illegal act of creating derivative works?

    Answer:
    Copyright owners have the right to prepare derivative works based on the copyrighted work. In most cases the right to prepare derivative works is superfluous since when this right is infringed, the right to reproduction will also be infringed. For example, if a FanFic author creates a new story about Darth Vader, the author will have infringed both the derivative right and the right to reproduce that character.

    As with a violation of the right to reproduction, the plaintiff will also need to show that the FanFic author copied from the original and that the new story is substantially similar to the original in expression. To be an infringement, the derivative work must be "based upon the copyrighted work," which refers to "a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted." Thus, to constitute a violation of section, the infringing work must incorporate some portion of the original work (see Distorted Barbie example below). For example, a detailed commentary on a work or a musical composition in
  23. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Kimball: What about OCs? What about pairings that are not in the movies, such as Obidalas? Obidalas are, as someone has already pointed out, insulting to the characters of both Obi-Wan and Amidala...it makes Obi-Wan look like the type of guy who would sleep with his apprentice's wife, and Amidala look like a (insert family-friendly word here), especially those fics that have one twin by Anakin and the other by Obi-Wan. The fics that have the twins conceived by rape--and yes, there are some here--are also insulting to Anakin's character. However, they are allowed. I don't think it is insulting to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to suggest that they might be gay. It's far more insulting to suggest that Obi-Wan might sleep with Padme.
  24. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    What about OCs? What about pairings that are not in the movies, such as Obidalas? Obidalas are, as someone has already pointed out, insulting to the characters of both Obi-Wan and Amidala...it makes Obi-Wan look like the type of guy who would sleep with his apprentice's wife, and Amidala look like a (insert family-friendly word here), especially those fics that have one twin by Anakin and the other by Obi-Wan. The fics that have the twins conceived by rape--and yes, there are some here--are also insulting to Anakin's character. However, they are allowed. I don't think it is insulting to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to suggest that they might be gay. It's far more insulting to suggest that Obi-Wan might sleep with Padme.

    OCs can still constitute derivative works, especially if they take place in a universe clearly identified as being the Star Wars universe.

    While you might have a greater chance of getting "fair use" protection when it deals with OCs, it would still ve an infringement, but would be more defensible.

    Ultimately, it comes down to LFL and what they decide is damaging to their characters and stories. They are the ones with the rights to decide whether something is allowable or not. They might decide that an Obidala is acceptable, but slash is not. They might decide that the rape view is more tolerable than a Jar-Jar/Padme relationship (heaven forbid!).

    In the end, it is their right to decide that, not ours.

    Seeing as they have come out against slash (specifically relating to official characters), is it so unreasonable for Josh to provide stricter standards than LFL's so as to have a buffer against their claims of infringement? That's ultimately what this comes down to. LFL has said that "Skywalker Slash" is off limits. To help insure that we do not cross that line, Josh has taken it one step further and outlawed all slash.

    Seeing as he is the one who would face the legal difficulties should LFL get upset, I can't blame him one bit for setting up a buffer.

    Kimball Kinnison
  25. flying_fishi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    star 6
    What I have a problem with is his disagreeing for religious reasons--that seems to me that he's forcing everyone here to conform to his religious views. I come here to discuss Star Wars, not to listen to a sermon.

    No one is forcing you to read the bible :)

    And to say that this site is predominantly Bible-beaters is vomitious. I like how threads where shoving bibles up your asses is not noticed by the powers that be.

    it's either for religious reasons or because Josh is afraid of screaming religious-right parents.

    Why aren't religious reasons valid?

    That's what he believes. He is allowed to believe that homosexual relationships are wrong (if that is so, I hate to presume) and you have the right to believe that they are right.

    The difference is that this is his site that he owns and he runs and he can decide whatever he wants to do with it.

    You have no choice, and it's very pathetic that you've spent so long fighting over your nonexistent rights to say that Han kissed Luke.

    This is not the last website on the internet, and it boggles why it's so important for this to happen here.


    Bloody hell.

    [image=http://introwebnet.com/forums/images/smiles/deadhorse.gif]
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.