The Last Hurrah

I may be wrong. But if I'm not, according to that George Lucas's permission don't mean ****. It's Josh we have to worry about.

You're wrong!

But let me explain how. Luke and company are registered trademarks of Lucasfilm, LTD. (LFL). Now, if a site is hosting a fan site (not for profit) they have two choices -- enforce the trademark (and shut them down) or not. Currently, they allow TheForce.net to exist -- and it is SOLELY by the good graces of LFL that the boards are allowed continue existance (all operating costs from Josh and Phil aside).

So, if they felt strongly on an issue they could indeed shut the site down without really even so much as a "by your leave."

So it is entirely possible that LFL "permits" het fic and "does not permit" slash fic with their characters. Of course it's entirely possible that monkeys might fly out of my butt, but we won't know until it happens.

But I also happen to fall under the "nurture" side of the homosexuality debate until "nature" is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. (e.g. choice over wiring)

 

Let's say my personal opinion is that I don't hold the EU as pure canon. It's somewhat true, I'd wish I could pick and choose the rare gems from out of the sludge. I don't consider the NJO canon when I write, because I haven't read past Conquest. So, let's say I write a story in which Luke shaves his head and it takes place NJO-era, yet, in some book, it is a major plot point that Luke has hair.

It this story against canon, that is, is it AU?


Can you hold me responsible to a canon that I've never read?


It's the same with the EU. To be a Star Wars fan, do you have to read the books? No. Do you have to see the movies? Well, it's bloody helpful! So let's say that I've never read Union - which I haven't, it being very hard to find in my crany of the world. I've never read Luke and Mara get married. Therefore, how do I incorporate their marriage into my personal canon when all I know of it is heresay?



But the canon debate is for another time. And I'm not going to talk to you about single-parent homes, considering that I came from a two-parent home and I'm still messed up as hell. One of those people who'd rather'd their parents had sent them into foster care.





post it all over the world, i dont care, i'm not reading it...my opinion personally is that this is a sinful lifestyle to lead ,but thats my opinion, and i'm not gonna go and throw rocks at gay people or anything b/c its just my opinion

*hands you cookie*




It shouldn't get it's own forum though, there's no need for that. There should just be a mention in the title of the thread.

The reason I mentioned a seperate forum was because of all the "but the parents won't want their precious children reading gayness!!11!!!"

A seperate forum, with "SLASH" clearly written on it, would take away the concern that a child (honestly, does anyone here actually consider 13 year olds children?) would innocently stumple upon it.



Children don't need to be exposed to homosexual behaviorisms, which are strictly adult-oriented.

Why are we child-proofing the world?




So it is entirely possible that LFL "permits" het fic and "does not permit" slash fic with their characters.

I don't know. Have they shut down fan fiction sites before? I don't know. Were slash sites specifically targeted? I don't know.

Has GL issued a proclamation a la Anne Rice that fan fiction is bad? No.

 

Genghis - this is not the place for a Canon War. Liz is quite entitled to not "consider" the EU as canon. She didn't say it isn't, she said she doesn't consider it to be. There is a difference.

 

halibut,
Liz made an incorrect statement in her initial post which she used to support the current matter. This doesn't have anything to do with any canon war.

 

I think what is considered "canon" is possibly the most trivial point of this entire discussion, even more so since what is and is not canon is not widely agreed upon, and never will be. I have never seen the issue with writing AU fanfic...hell, even put a disclaimer on the top of it saying the characters aren't yours if it means LFL won't shut us down, but the characters are there to be interpreted as their fans see fit. We're allowed to give our own views on what they may or may not be, provided we don't pass them off as LFL's views.

 

*sighs*

Please read my (and Liz's)post before responding. She didn't say it wasn't canon. She said she (personally) didn't 'consider' it canon.

 

Don't derail the thread Genghis

Anyway Liz, you have my support on this one.

I think same sex fan fiction should be allowed. It will conform to the same rules as every other fan fiction on this site, so I dont see whats wrong with it.

Thats all I have to say on the issue.

 

Genghis, we are not debating what is and what is not Canon here. Many people disagree with what you said, and that's the reason the Canon debate exists in the first place.

Let's leave that out of this thread, please.

 

I've moved this to PM

And to be clear, I support Liz in this

 

I've gone back and forth on this issue several times while reading this thread, and also during the lifetime that this argument has seemingly been going on.

A few points:

1) Please refrain from calling those who think homosexuality is 'wrong' "ignorant". There is no basis of reference here outside of personal opinion and individual conviction and belief. To claim that someone adhering to either side of the argument is necessarily and absolutely 'ignorant' is ludicrous.

2) Throughout most of the thread, the point my mind kept wandering back to was this: Josh is a Christian. And for (rough estimate) 95% of Christians, the belief that homosexuality is "wrong" is simply the way things are. The bible (I've been told, never actually read the entire book) reportedly states that homosexual practices are wrong (Although, again, I'm unsure of the exact wording). Thus, Josh likely believes that homosexuality is wrong. Several vocal people here are outraged at such a concept... that a person could actually make decisions based on their faith! I don't know when it became 'cool' to mock someone simply because they were following their faith, or simply for having faith at all, but when it comes to spirituality or religious beliefs, I'm afraid we're all just as much 'in the dark' about what is "the truth" until sometime after death. So debating whether or not any particular religion is 'right' is absolutely pointless, and often-times rude. Anyway... just a guess here, but perhaps Josh doesn't want to be associated with or support homosexuality by allowing it on his boards (again, this is due to his religious beliefs, which, as I've already said, aren't really 'debatable'). His religion is telling him it's wrong - he has then chosen to not allow it on something which bears his name. There's your reason. If you're looking for logic, there it is, whether you accept it or not - he doesn't want it associated with him because his faith tells him it's wrong, therefore he has chosen not to allow it. Simply because you don't accept his faith does not mean it isn't "logical" or derived out of "reason".

3) Despite all of that, I still think it could be possible for Josh to allow slash on TFN. Why? Well, considering that Star Wars depicts murder, drugs, thievery, slavery, and for all we know an entirely God-less universe, and all of these things can be depicted in fan-fiction, why not homosexuality? Whether or not anyone thinks it's 'wrong' should theoretically be moot. Just because someone is morally opposed to something does not mean it's against the rules to mention it here. I'm sure several fan-fics depict murder (one character killing another). I'm sure some make mention of slavery, and thievery... Mere mention of these things or their existence in a story is not the same as an official stamp of approval from Josh. Similarly, simply having two homosexual characters does not involve any sort of judgement on them. By an odd paradoxical logic, it seems that many who oppose the presence of homosexual characters do so out of a belief that simply having them exist would act as some sort of approval, or support the claim that homosexuality is acceptable... and this is paradoxical because by that same logic, then, these people would be saying that because homosexuals exist in the real world (where they cannot be so conveniently "banned" from appearing), then they must be 'OK'! But we know that's not how those who disapprove of homosexuality think - they don't agree that mere presence equates to proof that homosexuality is 'OK'. So why do they think that their presence in slash-fiction would send the same message? It would simply be a reflection of modern-life.

Anyway. Once again, another long post. Bottom line - I feel as though no matter your personal feelings toward homosexuality, its mere presence in a fan-fic should not represent any sort of 'approval' or 'disapproval' of any particular lifestyle... it's merely a description of a situation.

Oh, and Liz - if you need to say "penetration occurred", you've gone too far i

 

re: point 2:

I respect the fact that he has faith. I don't respect the fact that he's basing judgements in faith that apply to those of us of different faiths and to those of us without faiths. I don't respect the fact that he's basing a judgement on faith when he will never even have to see the forum in question.



re: point 3:

nothing much, just that I read "slash" in the first line as "slavery".




if you need to say "penetration occurred", you've gone too far into detail anyway, IMO.

If I need to say "penetration occured" I'm a much worse writer than I'd ever figured I was. I was being, well, figurative. There's only so far you can go without mentioning any body parts, which was the point I was trying to make.



Personally, I add variations of the following disclaimer to all my stuff: This story is 100% fiction. The author doesn't know these people. These events never happened. The author does not own the characters, they belong to [insert whichever PTB in that fandom]. The author makes no money from this story and will take it down should TPTB demand it.

 

"I don't respect the fact that he's basing a judgement on faith when he will never even have to see the forum in question."

True enough, but just because he won't/doesn't have to see something doesn't mean it won't be reflecting on him in people's eyes, and he knows that.

If you respect that he has faith, then you should also respect that he has chosen to follow it. The point I think that needs to be emphasised is that I think he can still be following his faith even by allowing the presence of homosexual characters in fan-fic.

Vertical

 

I'm not supposed to be on right now (high on meds and working on a project), but I do want to answer one thing:

I respect the fact that he has faith. I don't respect the fact that he's basing judgements in faith that apply to those of us of different faiths and to those of us without faiths. I don't respect the fact that he's basing a judgement on faith when he will never even have to see the forum in question.

I don't know how to say this gently, but here it goes:

THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! No one is making the judgements apply to you. You are choosing to participate here, and so choosing to allow them to be applied to you.

If you disagree with that, then your only recourse is to walk away. Josh is not limiting your ability to write slash fanfic in any way. He is only saying that he will not allow his resources (i.e. money, server space, bandwidth, etc.) to be used to support it. You have no right to those resources in any way.

Josh did not choose to make these the largest Star Wars forums on the Internet. They simply became so. No where in there did control of this site get ceded to the users. Just accept that.

The inmates will not be running the asylum.

Kimball Kinnison

 

I respect his faith. I respect that he can live his life in accordance with his faith. I just don't see how it's against his faith not to allow homosexual fan fiction on an internet message board, considering that he's never posted in Fan Fiction and doesn't ever have to go in there.




Josh did not choose to make these the largest Star Wars forums on the Internet. They simply became so. No where in there did control of this site get ceded to the users. Just accept that.

Did I ever, ever say that? What, do you think I'm planning a coup? Have I done anything in this thread, in any thread, but try to presents points to change Josh's mind? I'm presenting arguements and all I want is to have the same courtesy paid to me. I'm sick of tired of seeing others stick up for Josh. I'm sick and tired of the "Because Josh said so". What I want is for Josh to come out of the woodwork and give his reasons or, you know, just say "Because I said so." That I can live with.




The inmates will not be running the asylum.

Wonderful allusion.

 

You suck at "gently", Kimball.

 

I respect the fact that he has faith. I don't respect the fact that he's basing judgements in faith that apply to those of us of different faiths and to those of us without faiths. I don't respect the fact that he's basing a judgement on faith when he will never even have to see the forum in question.

If he wants to base judgments on faith, that?s his prerogative when dealing with his boards. As they are his boards, he can decide what sort of content appears on them. It does not matter than he will never see the forum in question. If you owned a house, and someone wanted to decorate the walls of their room with something you found morally wrong, as the owner of the house you would have the right to forbid them to do so. It would be your house after all.

While I strongly disagree with Josh?s stance on homosexuality, I think that you are disrespecting his right to make judgments (based on whatever criteria) concerning his property. You might not like his reasons, but you know what they are. To a religious person, belief in the principles of their religion can be a rational and logical explanation ? and Josh is very definitely a religious person.


In my opinion, the best path would be for Josh to loosen up and allow a survey of the fan fiction forums, asking people to vote (not via a poll, which is too easy to manipulate in either direction) for whether or not they think it should be allowed, then taking the decision of the majority.

 

"What I want is for Josh to come out of the woodwork and give his reasons or, you know, just say "Because I said so." That I can live with."

But he has done that. On several occasions. I'm not saying you're not right in bringing it up every so often, just to make sure nothing's changed, but to say Josh has never come out and expressed his reasoning is not accurate.

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Show me a place where he comes right out and says "Because I said so" and doesn't pussy foot around the issue.

 

I never said he said "Because I said so", your stipulation was as such:

"What I want is for Josh to come out of the woodwork and give his reasons or, you know, just say "Because I said so." That I can live with."

There are two things which you could "live with", according to you - either 1) come out of the woodwork and give his reasons, or 2) say "Because I said so".

He has come out of the woodwork to give his reasons. You simply never accepted them as legitimate reasons.

Vertical

 

Damn, I've got to write faster.




I just don't see how it's against his faith not to allow homosexual fan fiction on an internet message board, considering that he's never posted in Fan Fiction and doesn't ever have to go in there.

Because in the interpretation of the Christian Bible that Josh follows, homosexuality is a ?bad thing.? Slash fan fiction by nature encourages this ?bad thing,? as it provides a glorification of this thing that Josh considers to be bad. And using my house analogy, just because Josh never goes down to his basement doesn?t mean that he?d be peachy keen on having something that he?d disagree with down there. He might never notice the shrine to Satan or distillery or strip club that someone decided to open there when he wasn?t looking, but he has the right to say that he doesn?t want that sort of thing in his basement, because it?s his basement.

 

I respect his faith. I respect that he can live his life because of his faith. I just don't see how it's against his faith not to allow homosexual fan fiction on an internet message board, considering that he's never posted in Fan Fiction and doesn't ever have to go in there.

Again, you are acting as if you have some right to use his resources. You don't.

It doesn't matter if he would never have to see it. You would still be demanding that he provide support for something that he is opposed to.

For example, if you were offered (for free) the use of a room in someone's house, would you have the right to demand any sort of special privileges? No. If they did not want guns in their house, you would not be allowed to store your guns there, even if they never had to see them.

Or, as another example, my girlfriend's parents told her a long time ago that they did not care if she had premarital sex, but they would not tolerate it in their house. It is completely within their right to dictate such conditions on her behavior within their own house.

In the same way, as Josh controls the resources, and none of us pay anything to use this site, he gets to decide what he will allow to be done with those resources.

Did I ever, ever say that? What, do you think I'm planning a coup? Have I done anything in this thread, in any thread, but try to presents points to change Josh's mind? I'm presenting arguements and all I want is to have the same courtesy paid to me. I'm sick of tired of seeing others stick up for Josh. I'm sick and tired of the "Because Josh said so". What I want is for Josh to come out of the woodwork and give his reasons or, you know, just say "Because I said so." That I can live with.

He has no obligation to explain anything to you or anyone else. However, he has come out and directly said it. I direct you to this post, where he said:

If anyone wants to know what I think, simply read Gay-LenKenobi's post directly above this one.

I simply could not say it better myself.

Josh

For reference, the post he mentioned says this:

"But what does it boil down to? It's simple. By disallowing slash TFN is perceived as saying "homosexuality is wrong, therefore we won't allow fan fiction involving it". "


I don't think that is what TF.N and it's owner/s are saying at all.

It's a highly controversial topic and there are a large number of parents out there who do not want their children to be exposed to anything that depicts homosexual lifestyles. There is a reason that 'Will and Grace' is aired at 9pm in the US, because they believe most children will already be in bed and not still watching television. And the show is still the target of protests and boycotts.

And with all of that, all they do is TALK about being gay. They don't makeout and there aren't any bedroom scenes. For the majority of the series, 'Will' has been single and while 'Jack' jokes about being promiscuous, he is rarely, if ever, seen with another man.

Yet it still angers some parents and powerful political groups. So instead of opening themselves up to hate mail, criticism, and boycotts of their own, the TF.N staff/owners has decided to make a call that avoids all that. They have no obligation to break down any walls of prejudice against slash fiction OR help reduce bias against homosexuals. SW doesn't depict any homosexual relationships, but no one is accusing GL of declaring homosexuality wrong by that omission. They have every right to dictate what they will allow on their site and message boards. They aren't stating their opinion about gays and lesbians with this policy, they are avoiding conflict.

That was over a year ago. He publicly explained himself then, and yet this has still erupted at least 3 times since then.

Just accept his decision and either live with it or go elsewhere. It is not going to change.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Excellent post, GandOlf, however, I still maintain that simply including homosexuality isn't necessarily a glorification.

But that is a point where only Josh's opinion matters.

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If you disagree with that, then your only recourse is to walk away.

Trying to change the system isn't an option?

EDIT: I believe that Han had loads of gay relationships with Chewie before he met Leia. It's hinted at in the Han Solo Trilogies by Crispin and Daley. Ergo, Han Solo gay = canon.

(I'm sorry)

 

"Trying to change the system isn't an option?"

I agree, members should be allowed to request change, and provide reasonable arguments in support of their desire, which Liz has done very well.

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Just accept his decision and either live with it or go elsewhere. It is not going to change.

According to Josh's statements on the aforementioned petition, it may change if enough of the JC is willing to support it, which is why this continues to be an issue. I also firmly believe that Josh has some sort of moral responsibility to his patrons, if not a legal one, to give them what they want to an extent. Regardless of the fact that the same section of the bible that condemns homosexuality also considers women shortly after childbirth to be "unclean" along with anyone who touches them, it his his belief that homosexuality is wrong. However, there is obviously a large section of the fan fiction community who feels otherwise, and this should at least be taken into account.