ST The Last Jedi - Deleted Scenes

The line is trash, but the important thing is it reveals exactly what RJ thought of our protagonist. She’s so shallow in his mind that her story is nothing more than hormones for a homicidal maniac slaughtering her friends.

 

I don't see how Luke, who just saw her holding hands with Ben Solo and looking at him up close, and interpreting it as misplaced teen attraction, implies that he's right when right after that she tells him and us that she's seen the future and that Ben Solo will turn. He'd simply be relaying what some in the audience would be worrying about with her dark side slide towards Ben to better allow her to explain it's not that.

Just because a writer writes one observation of a character doesn't mean that the writer thinks that's the only truth to it. Consider how many perspectives Johnson ultimately writes for in this film. Is Holdo really a coward and a traitor just because Poe said it once? Is Rey really a nobody because Ben Solo said it once? Was Ben Solo's account of the night the most realistic? Or Luke's at the end? Does Rey want to help Ben Solo indefinitely because she said she'd help him and later did? Is Rey right about Ben Solo having some light in him even though she was wrong about him turning? Can Snoke really not be beaten or betrayed because he sees Ben Solo's every intent?

Writers get into their character's heads in each scene. They think about what that character might be thinking in that moment based on what they know or witnessed. They even coach actors that way. They'll tell them what they know or don't know or are thinking in that moment. Luke saying aloud that Rey might go to the Dark Side over attraction doesn't mean that Johnson himself thinks it's her only reason for going. Heck, it doesn't even guarantee that it was part of the reason. It's just an observation he thinks Luke might have given what he's just observed. In any case, Johnson obviously didn't like it either so it was changed.

 

RJ didn’t give her any other motive to hold Kylo’s hand. This has a truth telling vibe that matches RJ’s perspective on the story. RJ saw Rey as Bella Swan. If there was more to her conflict, this was the moment to bring it up. But there’s nothing else there. It’s shallow trash.

 

It's not shallow trash. It's Space Opera, which has always had melodrama in its DNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera

Without a doubt... the family aspects of Space Opera are the least divisive and Lucas was wise to focus on that because to generations of kids... they didn't even realize they were loving a soap opera in space (or Space Opera) originally as a result of making the focus on the family and having the romantic complications be secondary to that.

Obviously, the ST flips that around. There's still a ton of family aspects within the ST but the central dynamic around a hero and villain on opposite ends of the war involves two captivating people who are NOT related and they chose them not to be related a long time ago to explore aspects like this and that's part of why so many film reviewers were excited by the notion of Star Wars moving into some new aspects of Space Opera and fairy tale and myth than just being exclusively about family indefinitely.

The ST is basically about how a teen girl from nowhere who had powers within her awaken and found herself in the middle of the Skywalker dynasty's epic family saga during a war. She holds all the cards heading into IX. She either kills the last of the Skywalker bloodline. Or, her presence ends up being the one variable that ultimately inspires the last of the Skywalker bloodline to become a better person and survive this saga or die trying to help the effort his mother spent her life fighting for.

 

Ahem, maybe exactly this is the reason for some people to call it:

Just a thought.

 

So it’s about how a girl who’s only conflict with the dark side is hormones might love a wretched murderous soul into being good, and it’s not shallow trash? It’s a textbook case of Hollywood misogyny. Her only purpose for existing in this story is Kylo, and through Kylo she is shown to be insanely shallow, as though a girl doesn’t have other thoughts when you show her a hot guy’s abs and “pretty eyes.”

As for Luke not being a truth teller, at some point the dialogue has to reflect what the story is, not what it isn’t. RJ has made it explicitly clear time after time that Rey’s conflict boils down to her hormones. I’m bored with people trying so hard to inject motives that just aren’t present anywhere in the script.

 

Would you say that the OT is about a boy who's only conflict with the dark side is that sharing the same cells with someone he never knew, never met, never even was able to bond with over similar looks or vocal qualities, came to love someone strictly because he was told they shared the same cells and that the other person was his biological creator and that he loved a wretched murderous soul into being good? Because you probably could. Vader shows zero emotional support for his children and damages them. Luke is facing a cyborg whose face he can't see and a voice that sounds like James Earl Jones that's trying to kill him and cut off his hand and killed tons of people he cares and loves, and murdered his mother, and literally the only reason he has to care for him at all is that they share the same cells. Cells he can't even relate to because of how much more machine than man the other person is. Cells that just as easily could have been shared between them had Luke been created through cloning or some kind of donor concept from Anakin. One could easily argue that Luke was being selfish and putting his own needs ahead of the entire war and all of the people involved in it with his actions in the end. Heck, imagine how adoptive parents feel when they see Luke barely caring about the people who raised him his entire life being scorched and then putting all this time and risk into a cyborg with shared cells he's never even known and can't even seen himself in?

I don't see what makes the idea of attraction, and possibly even love (if it developed into that) any more selfish or shallow? To be clear, they still have a ton of work to do if they want to develop it into more than just attraction but they've laid the groundwork for such a thing to be possible. Imagine, if you will, Ben Solo being ousted from the FO in IX by Hux and the Knights of Ren who stage a Coup d'etat. Now imagine him pleading with Rey to let him help the Resistance to stop Hux and the K or R with her and the two of them bonding further. We are in new terrain now that we've already made it past the throne room scene in film II and seen hero and villain team-up and not kill each other. It almost feels like something big like that has to happen next IMO and if they do go that route and give these two more time to work things out and work together... would love being the thing that ultimately leads to balance really be so bad?

 

Because this is the first female Jedi protagonist. There are bad implications to making her story all about romance and having her motivations be all about fawning over a guy (a guy who has only proven to be a terrible human being at that). Want an epic romance about love conquering all and bringing balance, fine just at least give us one female Jedi protagonist that has her own story and motivations first. They did the one thing they shouldnt have done with the first female Jedi protagonist, made her story all about romance.

 

I would say the OT is about a boy that grew up idolizing his father and then, based on that life long admiration, and based on a character already defined by being motivated by family, he set out to save his father without ever ever ever prioritizing that over his friends or his values that the Empire was explicitly evil and Vader was not a victim. I would also say that Luke's story was in no way sexist.

Rey falling in love with the guy murdering her friends is so absurdly shallow to me. Yes it's selfish. It demonstrates Rey's values are paper thin. What's to love about the guy tormenting you and your loved ones and the galaxy? Well, have you seen his naked chest and pretty eyes? There you go.

 

Since when is Rey in love with Kylo? I didn't get that impression at all.

 

I get the concern and frustration. Honestly, I do. I can even understand it as a dealbreaker for some. It just isn't for me. Do I hope that they're careful on the messaging in the end and that the messaging doesn't end up being "Girls, all evil young guys out there just need you to love them more and they'll stop being abusive people?" Absolutely. I don't want that to be the takeaway message at all. Do I hope that they're somehow able to deliver a moving, complex love story that started out as horrible and toxic as the OT's family dynamic but somehow ends in a way that's equally profound and satisfying? Yes, that's exactly what I hope they can somehow pull off because that's the only way to come close to approaching the OT's heights. The human drama at the core of the Force plot that's contentious, divisive, toxic, universal in understanding, and moving is basically what elevates Star Wars from being a creative, imaginative war epic into something more mythic. There's been strange, toxic romances in myth and fairy tale too.

I don't know how they will do it. It certainly does seem like Ben Solo has too many strikes against him and that he's been unwilling to accept help too many times for anything but a death from Rey when I really stop to think about it... However, I'm still holding out hope that they'll be able to pull a miracle out. I doubt many expected after seeing Luke's hand end up cut off and him jumping at the end of TESB that ROTJ would be as crowd-pleasing as it ultimately was with as moving an end as they delivered. I'm hoping they can somehow pull something big off for IX. It is devastating though that Fisher has passed on because it really seems like she, as the mother, would have played a big part in him coming back too and that they were saving her feature moment for the end (likely with that in mind).

Well, I'm not so sure that Luke and the Jedi masters who were attempting to manipulate him to finish what they could not weren't prioritizing their own needs above the lives of the humans fighting in the war. Obi-Wan had Luke abandon the Rebellion right when the Empire seemed to have them on the ropes. Luke also doesn't tell any of his friends early on that he has personal reasons for being on this mission and wanting to confront Vader. He doesn't tell them initially that Vader killed his father and he's even more secretive after that Vader is his father. Both choices put his friends at additional risk and also limited their ability to influence him from making choices out of revenge or to try and redeem a man who they may have seen as irredeemable.

It's true that the father and son story isn't as overtly sexist. It ushered in the next wave of father and son trope stories rather than following a ton of them. However, it did sideline Leia in the family plot. For a saga that really started with Anakin being unable to save his mom and later killing his own wife who looked a lot like Leia... Leia is underutilized and marginalized in the Force plot all the way through to the extent where she gets this massive update only at the end. As Luke's twin it would have made sense to give her some Force power earlier on and also better incorporate her as an equal to Luke in Vader's redemption and made him facing both of his kids the thing that brings him back. They kept it largely father and son. It obviously works and it's a classic and we grew up on it and I can understand the need to keep the story more focused and intimate but it does seem Leia is robbed of some of the family aspects and now that she's passed off-screen... she'll be robbed of that in the ST too. :-(

What this would ultimately be like, if they can pull it off, is the reverse of Anakin's story if Padme was a Force user from nowhere instead of a queen and if she stood up to Anakin's evil more and was able to be his equal more in an argument or in combat. Rather than ending with some death and a physical confrontation between Anakin and Padme at the end it would be starting with a death (Han) and a physical confrontation (Rey and Ben but one in which Rey does more damage to him) and then works back toward potential romance from there to the point where in the end Ben Solo is more like how he was before his anger issues started as a teen. Love would be what brings a Dark Side user back from ROTS-era Anakin before he's lived in that Dark Side mindset for decades as OT Anakin had. The saga would end with love between a Light Side user and a former Dark Side user leading to longer-lasting balance and both teaching the earlier failures and Dark Side issues of the Skywalker family to a new crop of Jedi students to ensure they don't go down the same paths that he and Anakin had.

I admit it's hard to imagine them pulling off a happy ending like that. I still think it's possible she just ends up killing him and ending the Skywalker line.

 

I mean, I could absolutely have an in depth discussion about Obi and Yoda and how they dealt with Luke. I'm not sure what specific comparison you are making though that's relevant to this discussion. You are really twisting things here to try and make it an accurate comparison. That Vader killed Luke's father may have come up off screen, but it wasn't relevant to anything that occurred in ANH or ESB between Luke and Han and Leia. As far as confronting Vader, Luke confronted him twice due to circumstances. He went after Vader to save Han and Leia, not specifically to confront him. In RotJ, again he wasn't planning to confront Vader. He did it, once again, to save Han and Leia (and the mission). He never put his friends knowingly at additional risk. Luke's priority, his first priority, every step of the way was his friends. Second was the Rebellion. Vader was third, despite being so deeply personal.

It isn't sexist at all.

Yes and this is my number one criticism of the OT, but I also recognize that unlike Rey, Leia was not the protagonist, and ultimately she, not Vader, was Luke's primary motivator.

@KembaSkywalker ~ of course Rey isn't in love with Kylo yet. It's actually worse than that. She's just hot for him.

 

I only now remembered this thread is about the deleted scenes. We should probably move the Rey stuff from here on out to the Rey thread.

 

Rian Johnson on the hand touch between Rey & Kylo: "The closest thing we'll ever get to a sex scene in a Star Wars movie"

Luke to Rey “You opened yourself to the darkside for a pair of pretty eyes!” - from “The Director and the Jedi”

Rian made clear about his intention

 

Well aware of those comments as well as that scene. I'm assuming Rian is referencing the emotional intensity of the scene, and not saying that we're supposed to interpret it as a Star Wars sex scene.

As far as the story is concerned, from what we've seen in TLJ, I have no reason to believe that Rey is in love with Kylo Ren. At this point, she's pretty fed up with him. As she should be.

 

Yes, agreed. Rey and Kylo had a emotional connection, not a sexual connection.

This is why Rian said that this is the closest they will ever get in the story, meaning, their connection in the whole ST will be at most emotional, and it peaked in that scene.

 

My point is that complaining about the quality of a deleted scene is essentially complaining about something that didn't happen. It's like attacking a painter over an errant brush stroke that was later replaced, or criticizing a composer for notes that weren't in the finished song. Fixing errors and mistakes are a normal part of the creative process of any artistic work, and attacking people over that is unnecessarily rude, unhelpful, and unfair. Lest we forget, the first cut of ANH is widely regarded as having been a disaster.

 

Yeah, I think it's fair to comment on the deleted scenes, but again - apply those standards to the deleted scenes from the other films if people are going to start criticising them like they were actually part of the film.

 

Exactly, I mean look at the first deleted scene here (from TESB):



That dialogue is pretty cringeworthy (not to mention sexist). I don't know who wrote that specific dialogue or who decided it should be filmed, but it doesn't make me think any less of Lucas / Kershner / Kasdan. It was just something they tried which didn't come off - it happens to the best of them. As for the 'pretty eyes' line, I don't like it and am glad it didn't make it into the movie (or even a deleted scene) but to use it as evidence of what Rian really thought of Rey's character and motivations is ridiculous. Luke doesn't really know Rey, he hasn't seen the vision she's had (of Kylo turning back) and can't understand why she's doing what she's doing, so he's jumping to conclusions that she's just being naive. As someone else pointed out, the movie is full of people expressing opinions which are not necessarily reflective of what's really happening (as are all movies, I suppose) - to insist that this specific line is the exception to that and proves that RJ sees Rey as a silly little girl swooning over a handsome young man smacks of trying to invent even more reasons to criticise him - especially when there's no evidence anywhere else in the film that she's doing that. Yes they have a mysterious connection, she's realising she has more in common with him than she thought. As Luke isn't interested initially, she starts to look to Kylo for answers and questions whether there's more to the story than meets the eye, and she then has a vision of him turning back and realises he could help defeat the First Order. But there's literally nothing in the film that shows her as being all giddy about getting attention from a handsome young man. Even the shirtless scene was played as uncomfortable and was meant to emphasise further the fact that they could actually physically see each other.

Anyway, deleted scenes...

 

Me either. But that one line mentioned above has given the same viewers/TLJ naysayers/haters who've been hating on the film since December ammunition -- a new "spark" so to speak to hate it.

Misogyny my foot. Let's see someone defend Han solo's unwanted advances on Princess Leia. Cornered while fixing the falcon and being told to let go of her hand because it's dirty -- yet he gives her an unwanted kiss. Sexual misconduct! Romance my foot. She said no. Leia is obviously paper thin there only as a romantic interest in Han. So she can say "I love you" in the end.
Eye roll. Kasdan is a hack. Writing sexual misconduct as romance

Oh. About the deleted scenes. Glad they were cut. Except Phasma and Luke in mourning. Both would've been nice additions but the Luke scene would've needed some of Rey's journey around the island reshuffled.

The extended fathier chase -- fun-- but man it dragged and I actually got sleepy. So yes. Shorter was better. All good edits overall.

Now show me more of what was cut since you know some is getting saved for an ultra collection of all 9 films

 

I've been watching the digital release piecemeal since Tuesday, but finally got to the deleted scenes last evening. There were three I really wish had been included in the film:
(1) The Caretakers party; this was the best bit of humor in the movie, and Luke's lesson at the beginning was great. Rey's temper tantrum at the end was kind of annoyingly angsty teenagerish though.
(2) Luke grieving Han/Force Connection w/ Leia;
(3) Finn's alternate battle with Phasma -- that sequence would have been so awesome. Perhaps ILM will polish it up one day and we'll get it on a director's cut or something.

 

I'd say the thing with Leia to remember, from a filmmaking standpoint, she wasn't a Skywalker until the final film, by which she hadn't used the force (seemingly) and hadn't used a saber, whereas Luke was the son of a Jedi from the beginning, even before Anakin and Vader were one and the same.

 

Wow... That caretaker village scene should have stayed! Gave me really good ROTJ Endor celebration vibes...bummer

 

Total Endor vibe - glad the scene was released though. i feel it should have been left in, both for the comical moments and Luke / Rey interaction, which worked better than some of their other scenes.

 

The caretaker sequence is the most substantial deleted scene, and I like how it resolves with Rey reminding Luke of the real peril their friends are in. You can see Luke's guilt in that moment, but ultimately having him deliberately mislead Rey taints his character, and so it made sense to leave it out of the final cut.