Discussion The Legacy of Darth Vader / Skywalker family secret?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Dra---, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah, the notion itself sounds pretty silly. But I can see how some people would believe it; it's a cult. Cults are usually wack jobs who rely on half-truths and absence of empirical proof.
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  2. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Yoda told Luke the cave only holds what he took in there with him. That would suggest the darkside is a manifestation of the individual.

    The films show us that when one uses the force the wrong way, with anger and selfishness, that the body and mind become corrupted. I don't think that that's evidence of a darkside independent of one's own psychology.

    The EU does, however, create things like darkside energies and locations. The darkside as an independent entity seems to be more of an EU creation than it is in the films.
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  3. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Why doesn't the entire universe have "what you take with you" inside it?
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  4. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I think it does. That's what expressionist art is all about.

    Every object is really the subject.

    Anyway, it's possible Yoda set the cave up merely as a psychological test.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 4, 2014
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  5. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Although I was asking why the Vader illusion only appeared in the cave, I find this post of yours very interesting and poetic.
  6. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    See my edit: Yoda set the cave up as a psychological test.

    After all, we don't see the cave doing any darkside business before or after Yoda sends Luke into it.
  7. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    After that incident, we don't need to see the cave again. For all we know, the cave can't do any "dark side business" unless a person/thing enters it. But unfortunately, no matter which argument one supports, there is no proof either way. Based on that alone, therefore, it is impossible to say whether potential is right or not.

    So how about that legacy of Darth Vader?
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  8. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4

    The legacy of Vader is all important. In fact, I've been wondering if we might have a new droid squad or army based on the look of Vader. And how hard or easy it would be to make them cool looking.

    Anyone seen Elysium? I thought the droids in that were pretty great. Much more intimidating than what we saw in the PT.

    I think droid army very likely simply for the reason that the Jedi have laser swords. Much less gore with droids.
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  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Maybe we'll see opponents with lighsaber-resistant armor. So far Vader seems the only one who wore such a thing. Maybe the material to craft it is very rare, that could explain why not everybody is able to wear it. Or maybe it is infused with magic to make it more durable. A sort of Star Wars Mithril.

    You're saying Luke was hallucinating because he thought he would be? And he also saw "evil" critters because he thought he would? I find that rather hard to believe. More likely seems that the cave is indeed filled with the dark side and this simply triggers visions like the one Luke has. There is certainly something special about this cave, something beyond what the person entering it brings with him/her.

    What does the corrupting? Usually if you corrupt yourself, the process is rather slow. But in the PT the process is so fast it appears unnatural.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jan 5, 2014
  10. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4

    Anakin was corrupted over a period of 13 years, but even if you only count from the first time we know he used the Dark Side it was still three.
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He goes from "no, letting a man be murdered is immoral" to cold-blooded slaughtering of children in a matter of minutes. He is just as quick to dismiss his Jedi morals when he annihilated that Tusken camp, systematically clearing all of the huts (despite being taught for a full decade how to avoid doing this kind of thing). The only plausible explanation for that is some unnatural force imo. Unless we want to believe that the PT is a study on paranoid schizophrenia or something like that.

    Additionally, the Jedi always warn about giving in to the dark side. The movies make it crystal clear that this is what happened to Anakin, no further convoluted theories required.
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  12. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Anakin only used morality as an excuse for Mace to keep Palpatine alive because he wanted the knowledge and power that Palpatine possessed. Earlier in the same movie Anakin killed a defenseless person in cold blood himself. Sure he knew it was wrong and was conflicted about it, just as he did with the Tuskens, but he did it anyway.

    I'm not arguing against the idea that he gave in to the Dark Side and became consumed by it, nor that it's something unnatural which Jedi are susceptible to because of their enhanced connection with the Force. But it was his own choices, fears, and desire for power that led him down the path to the Dark Side, just as it was his own choice to turn away from it in the end.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    No, I do think he faced a moral struggle. He doesn't immediately fly to Palpatine's aid, only after thinking about it in the Jedi tower. That Mace wanted to murder a defenseless man may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

    Exactly. And this view (the view given by the movies themselves, I might add) requires the DS to be an outward influence and to exist.
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  14. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin's totalitarian beliefs in AOTC already show that he's being corrupted by Palpatine. This is a long process, as @Mystery Roach says. And the process is about shaping the way Anakin thinks, to make him think like a Sith. That's the road to the darkside. It's a personal journey into darkness; not to a real place.

    Pevra, I'm not sure what evil critters you're talking about, but certainly the Vader he saw in the cave was a kind of vision, not anything independent to be found in reality. Jedi have visions. Luke is very open to suggestion in ESB. Yoda says this cave is a place of the darkside, and so Luke believes him and his fears come out. What would it even mean for one location to be strong in the darkside? I'm not saying it's impossible, simply that it's so vague a statement I'm not sure what it means.

    The movies very well might end up portraying the darkside as something independent of consciousness and psychology, but I don't think I'm a fan of that idea.

    Anyway, the important thing is how force users are corrupted and whether or not they control their passions. The darkside can't do diddly without the individual changing their beliefs and emotions.

    EDIT: The darkside certainly exists. It exists inside all force users. It's a potential that can grow like a cancer. This means it's not necessary for it to exist as some sort of demon somewhere waiting to possess someone.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 5, 2014
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't disagree with that. I am saying that the steps he takes are unnaturally large. It's not easy to murder a thinking being, no less an entire village. People usually have compulsions against that.

    The snake and the insect with the many legs (don't know the english word for it), both symbols for evil, especially the snake.

    Why does he have the vision the very minute he enters the cave? The cave is tied to these visions, that much is made clear by Yoda's dialogue. He tells us it is a place of the darkside. I have no reason to disbelieve him as everything ties up quite nicely.

    Imo it is useless to discuss alternatives like the potentium theory when the original take works so well.

    The force is even in a stone or an insect, it is not limited to our limited senses and brain functions.

    Agreed.

    Yoda tells us the force is in all things. Therefore the darkside exists outside of jedi too. It exists both outside and inside of jedi, which is the view the movies give us. Yoda also tells that the darkside is in the cave.
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  16. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Saying it exists everywhere is different than saying it's an entity or location though.

    Saying it exists everywhere is trivial. It's like saying salt is in everything. So what?

    Who cares if the darkside is in a rock?

    What matters is if the darkside exists independently such that it has a will, or consciousness. Does it possess people? I think that idea takes free will almost completely out of turning to the darkside.
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  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    It's not trivial, imo, and salt isn't in everything. You will be hard pressed to find NaCl in the sun. You know what else is in everything? God. The force is a mix of eastern and western religions. It symbolizes "nirvana" (aka the place all living beings go to as they die to vanish into one ultimate energy field). But like Buddha some of the Jedi (enlightened beings) can retain some of their original spirit for a time to return as divine teachers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

    But the force also has similarities to the western god, the one being that is in everything and has a will of its own. The snake is a classical Christian symbol, as is hell as seen in ROTS.

    Lucas is a self stated buddhist methodist and it reflects in his work.

    Somewhat. I like to compare the force to drugs, especially cocaine. It can give you super-powers but takes away some of your free will. Using the darkside of course is a choice.
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  18. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    Uh-oh, Pevra, you're in trouble now...didn't Dra--- claim to be an atheist earlier? :)
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I'm an atheist too. It doesn't mean I don't grasp the religious connotations that are in the story.
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  20. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    The interesting effect (notice I don't call it a problem) is what all these different religious allusions do together as a whole in Star Wars. The effect seems to be indeterminacy or incoherency, since many don't seem to agree about these issues. For example, even if the darkside exists in all things, I'm not sure what relevance that has for a Jedi or Sith. What signifiance does the cave have other than being a nifty training device and/or Rorschach test? Would a Sith be more powerful on a darkside planet? Why would there even be a darkside planet?

    As for atheism, I'm more of a postmodern thinker than a contemporary science worshiping atheist. I don't believe in traditional interpretations of God, but I think a good amount of faith, however irrational, is good for people. Faith for the sake of faith.

    And I do like the comparison of the darkside to an addictive drug. I agree with that interpretation much more so than the demonic possession analogy.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 5, 2014
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  21. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Well put.

    Anakin did not give a damn about morality when Mace was going to kill Sidious (that was clearly all about saving Padme); if that were a problem, he wouldn't have killed Dooku like he did. Palp was basically reminding him right then and there with Mace standing over him that he could not save Padme if Mace killed him; that was manipulation. The Tusken camp is totally another ball of wax; Anakin flew into a rage in that one (that was not a calculated decision like the others), which was really the moment he began to enable himself to go to the dark side.
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  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Maybe we will get some answers to that in the ST.

    The whole "drawing on the environment" thing opens other questions. Is a Jedi stronger when he is surrounded by life? Is a Jedi weaker in the cold vacuum of space?

    Should we view a Jedi's power as something that is only dependent on the Jedi himself or also dependent on the force around him?

    Atheist science lover here!
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  23. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I like the conversation that Lucas talks about with Francis Ford Copolla; Copolla told him he should start some sort of religious cult around the force. Lucas was like, "Nope, not into that kind of thing." I wonder how many on this site would have joined it if he HAD started it?

    Sorry to get off-topic, just thought of that with the religion discussion.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
  25. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    LOL, Lucas would have had a great recruiting area for his cult.
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