Amph The Legend of Korra: (spoilers from future seasons must be tagged)

Discussion in 'Community' started by DarthDragon164, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. Im_just_guessing Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2002
    star 7
    Are you blind? All of their engines run on coal.


    As to Aang, lets not forget that he's 4 years too young to be faced with the responsibilities of being the Avatar. If anyone is to blame for his rash actions its those stupid monks that told him he was the Avatar before he turned 16.
  2. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Mar/IJG: These are all necessary transitioning stages to renewable energy. Come on, you can't just skip from agriculture to solar power. You need that industrial stage, especially to aide those who aren't blessed with the gift of firebending--which, I note, is powered by the sun and would therefore aide in the development of solar power. If the water and air benders had coöperated, they could have contributed wind and hydroëlectric power too. This was why the Fire Nation had to move in, to ensure a cleaner, and safer environment by coöpting the other types of bending.
  3. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    The Avatar's actions are those of a being beyond the earthly-conventions of mortal men, whose responsibility it is to maintain balance, regardless of geographical boundaries or national sovereignty.
  4. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Ah. You'll forgive me if I don't trust in the mediating powers of a crazy kid who talks to invisible people and hallucinates giant pandas.
  5. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Funny way of moving towards renewable sources of energy, then, commiting genocide upon the Air Nomads...
  6. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    You'll forgive me then if I don't see a hostile nation bent on world domination and the destruction of other, smaller groups of opponents as the noble hero and rightful ruler. :p
  7. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Maria: Well, we don't really know what happened there. The way I imagine it, the Fire Nation showed up to ask for their assistance, and the air nomads attacked in a fury because they disliked having their splendid isolation disturbed.

    Why else would Mattel have made Air Nation War Glider toys, if not to tell us that there's something left unsaid in the TV show, eh?

    Spider-Fan: But that was the whole purpose of the flashback where Zuko learned the true history of the war, and learned Sozin's noble motivations in bringing civilization and culture to the benighted, backwards nations of the world. It was to show us that the bellicose narrative Aang had constructed was untrue.
  8. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
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    ...

    Thank you very much, I just sprayed orange juice all over my laptop. :p
  9. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

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    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Culture or death doesn't seem like a terribly noble cause to me.
  10. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Who said anything about death? The colonists were obviously being integrated into the Fire Nation. In fact, considering how they were integrating different ethinicities during the advent of industrialization, I would say that the Fire Nation is a touchstone of ethnic tolerance and cultural sensitivity.
  11. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    We saw the results of the "enlightment" at the air temples. Or when Katara's mother willingly and peacefully gave herself and her abilities up to the Fire Nation. Death was a common outcome of the dealings with the Fire Nation. When it wasn't death it was imprisonment.
  12. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Apparently not tolerant and sensitive enough to allow Earthbending in the Earth Kingdom colonies...
  13. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
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    While their treatment of the Earth Nation and Air Benders is laudable enough, I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify their actions with regards to the Water Tribe. In the South, they used privateers and mercenaries to assassinate anyone who demonstrated bending ability, regardless of whether they even showed any understanding of their gift or not. Even worse, target confirmation was incredibly poor (if not non-existent) leading to huge collateral damage. In the North, they attempted to destroy the Moon.

    The Moon. Why.
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Spider-Fan: Please, the raider captain that took Katara's mother was a good for nothing lout who didn't even listen to his own mother. You'd use him as representative of the Fire Nation? Okay, then why don't we use Jet to represent the resistance to the Fire Nation, then?

    Maria: Earth-bending is violent and dangerous. It doesn't have the same environmental benefits as air and water bending, of course. That's why I didn't mention it earlier, naturally.

    Wocky: Yes, but it was Admiral Zhao who killed the moon--and he did so against the express orders of the true Fire Lord--and a prince at the very least--Iroh. He was insubordinate, and he was a traitor. What else do you expect from such a person? Indeed, his villainy represents all those who resist the imperial family.
  15. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    That's just not true, about Zhao. While Iroh was part of the royal family, he'd long since ceased to have any official capacity in government. He was on the expedition as a consultant/observer only. We also have direct evidence of this, as he was declared a traitor only after interfering with Zhao to preserve the moon. If the charge of treachery was valid, then he could not have been insubordinate, and if the charge of insubordination was valid, then he could not have been a traitor. One cannot eat a cake and have it, too.
  16. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Of course Iroh is not a traitor. Ozai is a usurper, I said this in the thread already. I'm being perfectly consistent here.
  17. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    As most other Fire Nation representatives were equally unsympathetic, aggressive and destructive, then yes I would say he makes a fair representative of their Foreign Policy.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Ah, racial stereotyping. Lovely.
  19. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

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    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    I said nothing of Race, I spoke of the actions of designated representatives of the Fire Nation military and government.
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    If it's your position that Iroh retains his legitimate position and is the rightful Fire Lord, how can you criticize Aang, whose campaign had his explicit endorsement by the time of the final engagement?

    Isn't Aang's role here analogous to Caesar's in helping Cleopatra win a war of succession against Arsinoe and Ptolemy XIII?
  21. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Not stereotyping. Deduction based on known facts. Care to provide a valid counter-example?
  22. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Wocky: Only in the end. I noted in this thread already that I was not talking about the endgame, which turned out decent despite the Avatar--but rather, in the Avatar's policies and actions throughout the series before the endgame. He was certainly not in league with Iroh before then, though they did briefly emerge on similar sides on a few instances. Miss Bei Fong could claim to be friend and ally of Iroh long before the Avatar could.

    Maria: Absolutely not. Deductive reasoning draws a specific conclusion from a larger generality, which--by necessity--forces a conclusion to be true if the premises are true. You and Spider-Fan are doing the exact opposite--using a few examples to generalize about a whole. This is the definition of induction--which you might observe in the scientific method--where a set of observations is then used to prove a conclusion, which may--but does not necessarily--follow. :)

    And I've noted from the start that I am referring specifically to the royal family as sovereigns to represent the Fire Nation. I noted the people do not matter--and indeed, nor do the subjects. You cannot work backwards from the specific to the general: this is not logically sound. Logic is inherently deductive--induction is the act of making informed assumptions, which you two have attempted to do.

    Indeed, all things equal, the testimony of Fire Lord Sozin, the architect of Fire Nation policy, weighs more than the misinterpretation of of lickspittles and lackies. The show has gone on to prove that Ozai murdered his liege, Fire Lord Azulon, and usurped his brother's rightful throne. As his sovereignty is in error, so then are all the acts committed in his name; they are not legitimate Fire Nation policy.

    Aang, rather than examine these things carefully, waged a war without nuance or consideration of these facts. It is only in the end, when the moderation of Iroh--and ZUKO, of all people--impressed upon him the need for a sensible accomodation with the Fire Nation in order to avoid further conflict, that Aang gave in to reason. This he only did because he wasn't there to interfere--imagine what he would have done when Azula attacked Katara!
  23. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    EDIT: Screw it. I will make this short. If you oppose Ozai's choices remember Aang only opposed the regime of Ozai, not Iroh, Sozin or Azulan. In fact he was friendly to the Fire Nation when Sozin was in power.
  24. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Thanks for the lesson in reasoning logic, Jello, but you still haven't given me an example of an official Fire Nation foreign policy which would NOT be unsympathetic, aggressive and destructive towards other nations.
  25. Im_just_guessing Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2002
    star 7
    I still say you can't hold Aang accountable for anything, he was 12. I mean if you think about it, through the whole series he mainly just listens to Sokka when it comes to planning stuff. The only real decision he made was to go to the Northern water tribe to learn water bending.

    Therefore, Sokka is the real villain of the series.