Lit The Legendary 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Rebirth!

It's another month in the 181st, and it's time for that rebirth of hope thing in Edge Of Victory II: Rebirth by Greg Keyes.

This novel is a bit different from the first first volume, Conquest, which we discussed two months ago. While Conquest focused pretty tightly on Anakin Solo's story, Rebirth is more like your usual main timeline novel and includes a variety of story threads.

- How does the book hold up next to its counterpart? Does it feel more important? Do the single threads feel diminished since they get less focus than Anakin's Yavin adventure?

- Mara's potential death - do you remember what you expected from this plot back when you first read it? Did the "burst bubble" work its magic? And how does it work in hindsight, now that we go into the book knowing that Mara and her child will make it out okay?

- One more for the oldsters - do you remember the madness about the baby's name, and how much the early chapter about the name thing seems to have addressed the real life controversy about what to name the baby?

- While we're at it, which names do you prefer? New ones that are completely made up, or the legacy names like Anakin and Ben?

- Does the birth really give you the impression of hope? Especially seeing how Ben isn't all that important for the conclusion of the NJO (writing this, I seriously wonder whether his "Vong-illness related birth" was a potential solution for the series; a person that could connect the Force world to the Vong world), and seeing how the very next book would remain firmly on the "no hope" side? Personally, I have the impression that Ben's birth is a pale shade of hope next to the way Ackbar's return in Destiny's Way is played out.

- A military coup: would it have been a worse outcome than what was in store for the Republic? How does it compare to the Jedi Order's influence come DW?

- And finally, since this didn't get a real good response in the Conquest thread... how do you feel about the Vong beliefs being presented as some kind of superstition that the Vong need to, and partially already have, put behind them? With the metaphysical aspect of the Jedi's religion never questioned? Is there a good parallel between both the Vong and the Jedi needing to examine their beliefs in the NJO, or is that just incidental?


Next month, there's still more Bounty Hunter Wars with Hard Merchandise! These Bounty Hunter Wars truly turn out to be hard merchandise, but I'm sure we'll be harder.

 

It's not just the birth itself, it's Mara's entire storyline in the book to have her on the brink of death with yellowish eyes and hair falling out. It's self-sacrifice up to eleven, and I'm not sure if I'm moved anymore by these kind of superhuman 200 percent feats. It's the reverse of "she lost the will to live" - it's written so drastically that there's no reason why she should survive, but she does because hope and forces of good and yeah it's never as bad as it sounds on the written page.

But by the way, how does this sacrificial act for her child factor into everything she'll do for Ben in the future, up to getting herself killed? Will she go to such extremes a lot, or is it just that one stupid move in the end?

Do you mean dangerous to themselves or to their victims? And if both, which one is more dangerous?

 

Anakin, Tahiri and Corran were awesome in this!

 

Do you think their part of the story should have had more page time, to keep the focus on Anakin, EoV 1's central character?

 

I was fine with the page time that they had. From what I remember anyway. Best parts of the book easily.
Though another whole book with just the 3 of them is fine in my book.

 

From what I know, Ben was not a part of the series plan and was ad libbed by Kathy Tyers when she wrote Balance Point (with permission of course). Such was the fluid nature of the series.

My favorite part of this book is the father-son time between Han and Jacen.

 

Yeah, that part really stands out. Especially since it "humanizes" Jacen, who's mostly seen as the unrelatable meditating philosopher. It's great to see him meditating next to swallowing his pride and helping his folks while totally approaching an emotional breakdown when he finds out about his father's and his family's difficulties.

But once the kid was there there was no reason for the other authors to have Mara sending away Ben. So I'm not sure if it's not just people having kind of little imagination when it comes to using a mother/parents of a young chils in this kind of books. It's pretty similar to the Solo kids having had " a bad childhood" and Leia "missing so much"; that's all just retconned in because the books we see need to throw their parents to the front lines, parking the kids with Winter (who would, funnily enough, actually have just a little more reason to be at the front).

 

The original plan for Force Heretic had Ben accompany Luke, Mara, and Jacen, and for Jacen to "shield" Ben in the Force from bad stuff, and that this would be a source of friction between Jacen and Mara.

Pablo laments that this would have benefited LOTF.

Edit: I would point out however, that Mara was Jacen's defender in LOTF, so no it really wouldn't have.

 

Well, it wasn't really vital that Mara was the one to find words for the excuse to let Jacen stray. Jacen trying to "steal" Ben to the Sith side and Mara going after Jacen to protect Ben was a bit more important.

Is there any information why Ben was omitted from Force Heretic?

 

No. I assume it's because it would be even more filler in a trilogy that was already largely filler given that Ben is pretty extraneous to the plot of the series as a whole, and the subplot wouldn't have done anything to benefit The Final Prophecy or The Unifying Force.

 

It makes me wonder whether some authors and/or editors simply didn't think of ways to integrate young children into their fictional character's lives. The regular characters simply give their kids away and continue doing their jobs as is beneficial to the plot; and with some side characters, you find out so little that it can be handwaved as "she stayed at home while he made his career" - Mirax and Corran, for example, or Tendra and Lando. Iella and Wedge. As soon as female character Leia is an active player, it needs to be reimagined as her essentially neglecting their children. And Han essentially being able to stay at home in the Skyhouse isn't really addressed, either, as I think the implied role reversal in that would be considered "too huge". The manliest SW character doing the housework? A huge part of the audience wouldn't take that, I suppose.

Which brings me to Mara and the tight definition of her role. Here, she's the lone warrior again, forming and executing this plan of self-sacrifice on her own; once Luke adds his strength, it seems too bleak and hopeless for him. Her pregnancy consists of aggro snapping - we even get a "you did this to me" joke, don't we? All this "I'll joke I'll kill someone" stuff that became a really strong vein of the EU and that actually reminds me of ghetto posturing.

I do have the feeling that Jaina is a bit more nuanced here, though; if it weren't for that, I'd ask if Mara's pregnancy is an indicator that all women here need to be cynical or aggressive to come across as strong women. Which might not seem to be true of Leia since she's the Falcon's emotional anchor, but even she gets her moment of Threepio cruelty because "I was sleeping".

 

Isn't that exactly how the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy handled it though?

 

Every Bantam author had a different approach. Denning developed a subplot in which Ben was almost kidnapped, and Han and Leia were watching Ben in that novel as well.

I think it is a necessary reality that Mara can't really be toting Ben around with her while she's hunting YV infiltrators or otherwise engaging in the action of a Star Wars plot and it makes sense that Han and Leia would be watching him while Luke and Mara are involved in war planning. And once the Solos likewise got involved in the action of the plot, for someone else outside of the plot.

 

Didn't think Denning was in the Bantam era

 

The Bantam remark was in response to iron lord mentioning Black Fleet.

Denning wrote the novel which followed Rebirth, which is the first novel in which Ben is used in a game of hot potato.

 

One of the complaints cited in the round robin interview in The Unifying Force was "Han became a househusband" - Black Fleet might not have been the only one with that tendency. I think The New Rebellion takes a similar approach, and possibly the Corellia Trilogy might start that way as well.

But then, the round robin was the same source that said that Luke was too powerful, hence the authors having to handicap him a lot of the time.

 

I think the general idea behind such a claim is the fact that Han couldn't go out and get into trouble once he got married; his identity became husband and father more than smuggler or general. DKM addressed it in The Last One Standing and Chewie's death was a springboard for Han reverting back to that lifestyle for his arc.

 

Mara was responding to Luke's "Keep this up, and we'll be ahead of Han and Leia in no time" remark, about having more kids.

 

Keep in mind that their pregnancy wasn't planned: Luke : "I was just as surprised as you were."

Now Keyes's choice to portray their dynamic that way in the book - might be argued as a mistake. I'm wondering - is it consistent with how their dynamic was portrayed before it though?

 

One can be worried about becoming sterile due to a disease - and yet still end up with an unplanned pregnancy later.