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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Legendary 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Rising Force!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grey1, May 1, 2015.

  1. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Hello again everyone. This month, I can offer you another young readers book, one that is so old that it actually manages making me feel old. All the Bantam era stuff and accompanying books, like YJK, JJK and Galaxy of Fear obviously are from an age long gone. Jedi Apprentice, though, only came about with the new SW movies.

    Oh wait, those aren't the new movies anymore.

    So, just about 16 years ago, we had a young Obi-Wan. One who was Robin to a strange new Batman, wooden to some, serene and possibly melancholic to others. And suddenly, Jedi training wasn't about being a talented young man stumbling over old masters anymore; Jedi training didn't just come to you by spending three days and nights on a swamp planet. You were a Padawan apprentice to a Jedi Master. And you had obviously spent a long time with that master. And at some point, Master Yoda had told you stuff out of context. Now, what did that Jedi apprenticeship look like? In a series that wasn't really all that comparable to YJK and JJK, we got the travels of Qui-Gon and teenage Obi-Wan.

    This month, I'd like to invite you to look back at the time when an entirely new era of Star Wars opened up shop and authors were once again free to lock down stuff they probably weren't supposed to lock down by writing about them in tie-in books. Jedi hopefuls redirected into agriculture if they weren't picked up by a master at an arbitrarily set age? Qui-Gon having had two previous apprentices, one of them having made a dark side turn and thus giving a "really bad idea" vibe to Qui-Gon championing the training of future Darth Vader? It's all in here, in Jedi Apprentice.

    And even better, the first volume stands alone in having been brought to you by the author who did The Courtship of Princess Leia. And then gave the reigns to Jude Watson, who effectively spun her own universe out of the premise with what, 50 volumes? Right through the entire prequel era and up to the beginning of the "let's go back to episode 4 nostalgia" movement.

    Those won't be our topic, though. We're simply looking at The Rising Force by Dave Wolverton. Next month, it's The Force Unleashed II. Thanks, DigitalMessiah.
     
  2. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I remember reading this back in...2003? I loved this one. The whole apprentice-choosing-tournament was certainly interesting and it definitely carried over to later stories, like Dark Rendezvous. I do remember thinking how weird it was that they let Bruck Chun have a red lightsaber, though. Like, combined with his attitude, it was like the Jedi were trying to turn the punk to the dark side.
     
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  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That is - assuming Alex Wheeler is, like Jude Watson, a pseudonym used by that same author. A reasonable assumption, given which characters get a lot of focus.
     
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  4. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I read this and the rest of the series a long time ago, but I only bothered to acquire the two Special Editions.
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I contributed!
     
  6. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Back in 1999, red lightsabers were still fair game for everyone, but so was obvious symbolism; this might factor into the saber colour after all. On the other hand, Adi Gallia never seemed overly aggressive but had a red saber (probably because red is a girl colour). Wonderful colourful world back before 2002.

    Regarding the tournament - do you get a "wizard school" vibe out of this, especially one piggybacking on the Harry Potter books, which had been around since 1997? Potter obviously didn't invent this, but if it makes money, it's a possible direct source for imitators.

     
  7. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Never noticed that prior to George's Episode II declaration, all the Jedi with red lightsabers were women.

    And yeah, I have like the worst taste on this forum.
     
  8. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I've never read Harry Potter so no, I didn't get a "wizard school" vibe at the time. I don't remember exactly what I thought about it; I guess I just kind of went with the flow. I was only eight years old at the time, so hey. Actually, I found it odder that Bruck was allowed to act like he did than anything.
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I hated the fact the Jedi Knights decided, at fourteen, your entire life was decided for you and the failure was the apprentice's not the teacher's.
     
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  10. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Here's the thing: the book does portray this as "apprentice fails, has to do dumb farmer's work". Which is the most stupid drama you can infuse into a kid's book about Jedi training - oh noes, will Obi-Wan be allowed to do something great or will he be a slave? Including the age barrier is a bit troublesome as well, if not entirely farfetched when it comes to traditions and rites of passage. We said back then that it wouldn't necessarily make sense for other species, for example.

    The basic idea makes a lot of sense, though. Being a Jedi, a member of the Jedi Order, is one thing. Being a Jedi Knight is another thing entirely. It is, for all purposes more elite because you have to be the best of the best of the best. Is the argicorps for stupid people only? The way this is written here, it feels like the dropout collection that was founded to have something for the dumb people to do. In reality, you'd have a Jedi Order helping the galaxy in any way they can, helping the Force; and only a handful of Jedi would actually be knights, proficient in killing people and exploding stuff (and finally leading armies).

    I like the device of Jedi Knighthood not being something that everyone has a shot at simply because midichlorians (magic raw talent if you want an oldschool explanation that says the same). It's a very specialized career. The problem is, as soon as you write this for kids, be it these books or Ahsoka in TCW, you need to relate to kids and their fears and their thrills. Which is nothing what you'd structure an order like this. All Jedi apprentices should be the same boring, balanced, if somewhat naive, talented kids. And then along comes Anakin who's never learned their topnotchety, and who's passing every selection process because of raw talent and prophecy and the insistence of a guy who has a 50% fail rate when teaching superhumans.

    By the way, I still assume the agricultural corps was a nod to Ben's "brother" Owen (remember that the two were still brothers when book #3 was written, where Obi-Wan remembers his brother Owen, and up to Episode 2 which had a lot more surprises than just lightsaber colours). Owen Lars sitting in the desert as a failed Jedi, pulling moisture out of the air, growing cynical and not wanting Luke to go for the elitist lifestyle, that would have been something.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Power of the Jedi revisits the subject of the Agricultural Corps and we get discussions of how it, The Explorer's Corps, and Medical Corps all have immense importance to the Jedi Knights. However, as you mention, that's not what happens here. It's not portrayed as an equally valid path to the Jedi but, essentially, a washout corps for Jedi Knights even if Obi-Wan Kenobi is allowed to keep his lightsaber (a sure sign he's still a member of the Jedi).

    The thing is, that even the Masters consider this to be a less noble path to pursue with Qui-Gon-Jinn vaguely horrified an apprentice as talented as Obi-Wan Kenobi is going to House Hufflepuff. It also is a terrible fate for people who have been studying for this for their entire lives.

    Still, I actually don't mind the Prequel Jedi Knight having this flaw. Gene Roddenberry said that he was always dismayed by the way fans tried to justify the Prime Directive. Gene said he created the Prime Directive for one reason only: so he could have the heroes BREAK IT. I feel much the same way about the Jedi Knighthood and their attachment and the elitism on display here.

    I think it makes the story better, not worse.

    The three Corps also give us an explanation for how Vader, the Inquisition, and the various other Jedi Hunters like Boba Fett can have such epic "scores" with Order 66. The various corps could have hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of members.
     
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  12. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    The Jedi Order, however, is mostly defined by its numbers of knights, isn't it? Because your average audience/writer wouldn't know that there's an infrastructure to the Jedi that goes way beyond the flashy stuff we see in the movies?

    Basically, I think this matches up with the Jedi Academy history lesson about Jedi Healers and Jedi Diplomats who wore lightsabers but didn't go for the basic heroics. I don't think Wolverton and whoever else set up this series intended this.

    You bring up a valid point - is the Jedi Order broken at the time of the prequels? Are we meant to identify with Qui-Gon so much that everything else about the Jedi turns into a bad example of how to run things? Basically yes, and I think Mace Windu could have been a tremendous hated character for the way he treats Anakin, "our hero". The problem is, even with everything that's going wrong, we trust in Yoda. The Jedi Order can't be that wrong if Yoda is so prominent in it. The same in this book - the Order isn't presented as a flawed concept, a sect that Qui-Gon has to break young Obi-Wan out of. All of this comes across so perfectly normal. Just like Harry Potter turned Hufflepuff from "the good-hearted" or something to "all the rest", and a wizardy school into a social comment on the British school system, this Jedi Order with its horror-to-schoolkids principles should have come across much more Jocastu Nu here, and much less Yoda. For all purposes, like in Episode 1, Qui-Gon still feels like the face of the old Jedi when he's anything but.
     
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  13. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I doubt it was known when this or anything else in this period was written, but Yoda does become Qui-Gon's student. Luke will be Yoda of the ST, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily agree with all his decisions in the OT. I have never read this book so I can't comment on authorial intent, but I find it kind of funny that the dogmatic structure of the Jedi was celebrated in some of the EU.
     
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  14. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Maybe it would have been easier to grasp back then if Qui-Gon had been the one to shun Anakin, and the Order had been portrayed as "truly blind" (which it partly was since Anakin gets his free pass in the end for blowing up a starship). That would have run against the intent of the irony of the prophecy, and of the sense that including a prophecy in a prequel makes in the first place. The ideas behind all this are just complex enough to not fall into place with the snap of a finger, so it's a bit counterintuitive to make a mass audience blockbuster out of this. But hey, that's one of the great things about SW, isn't it.

    But having Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Anakin very obviously dancing the line between doing good stuff and evading the dogmatic structure of "the man" would have been great. But okay, Jedi Apprentice at least gives a small arc for Obi-Wan starting as your average teenage individualist but making a mistake that convinces him of reigning himself in, following orders and just bending the limits a bit now and then. Most famously showing his rebellious nature when announcing he'd still train Anakin without the Council's permission. Still, who would have thought that this witty, if not rebellious mind would end up on the Council himself? I was very surprised to read that in the Episode 3 promo material. Talk about coming out of nowhere.
     
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  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    To be fair, the Prequels have a fine line to walk.

    The Jedi must be flawed and stupid enough to mishandle Anakin's training as well as miss the obvious signs Sidious is there. They are a flawed order who ditch everything they do traditionally to train Luke in a completely new way.

    They must also be good and worthy and just enough that their death is a horrific tragedy.

    The Jedi are heroes and good guys but they're also not 100% right.

    Which I think the book does a decent job of doing.
     
  16. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Sooo complicated. When I was Obi-Wan's age, the Rebellion did nothing wrong and the Empire did nothing good.

    Urgh politics and gray morality and heroes on both sides thanks Filoni.

    ...I hope you know I don't mean that. ;)
     
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the Jedi Apprentice series is pretty good at showing the Jedi Order as well intentioned and a galactic force for good but not always perfect either. The eventual Melida/Daan business, for example, shows they aren't really all that great at resolving business but the way the galaxy is portrayed is really interesting. Basically, the way Jedi Apprentice works, it seems every planet in the Republic is constantly on the verge of collapse only for the Jedi to role in and fix everything like an episode of a tv series.

    Which is a great premise for a book but really indicates the Republic is horribly corrupt and on the verge of failure.

    This book also introduced the character of Xanatos, at least in concept, and Qui Gon Jinn's intimate encounter with the Dark Side of the Force. Xanatos is a figure who nicely undercuts the Jedi Knighthood's claim that they can prevent people from falling to the Dark Side by raising them from birth. Much like Count Dooku (which is funny since Xanatos predates him), Jedi latch onto their families even though they don't know them.
     
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  18. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Which is funny because they are so similar in their pedigree it's uncanny. But I guess it's never about a direct "class division corrupts" commentary and more like a supervillain trope that he's got the money to really build an evil organization/PR campaign, unlike Kueller who's... well, falling back on Brakiss' family empire to get things done. Hm.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Which is funny because they are so similar in their pedigree it's uncanny. But I guess it's never about a direct "class division corrupts" commentary and more like a supervillain trope that he's got the money to really build an evil organization/PR campaign, unlike Kueller who's... well, falling back on Brakiss' family empire to get things done. Hm.[/quote]

    Amusingly, Xanatos is a self-made Dark Jedi since Qui Gon took away his family Empire.
     
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  20. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    DigitalMessiah: Here's one for you, since you didn't read the book.
    Accept? Respect? Let's embrace like it's 1999.
     
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  21. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    So...

    - ...is the story too small in scale for the official story of how Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan meet?

    - ...could we say that them finding each other through "chance" (aka the Force), being spoken of as fate's choice, is an early element of the Force setting up the pieces for Anakin removing Sidious? I'd like it even better if the timing had their meeting around the time of Anakin's birth so we could connect it all, but it could be an early reaction to Plaguies' experiments.

    - ...that being said, how perfect are they for each other when the first (only?) thing keeping them together is fate?
     
  22. The Extreme Moderate

    The Extreme Moderate Jedi Grand Master star 1

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    Jun 30, 2005
    I think there is something interesting, if ultimately sad, about their first meeting. It's clear that Qui-Gon doesn't really want anything to do with Obi-Wan, and is consistently pushing him away- even being cold at times. It's a marked contrast to TPM when he meets Anakin, where he essentially falls over himself to train the boy. It almost feels like, in that Council scene, he's trying to dump Obi-Wan to get Anakin. My wife watched that scene after reading through this series, and she found it poignant. It might also explain Obi-Wan's reaction ("the boy is dangerous, Master") as more childish jealousy than serious concern. It allows the character of Obi-Wan to grow through the films and EU. It also might help to explain some of Obi-Wan's humility and Anakin's overconfidence- he had to work, and essentially failed at first, to become a Padawan. Anakin had it handed to him, being accepted far after the usual age limits for a Jedi.
     
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  23. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    It does a nice job in giving Obi-Wan more to feel sore about than the general "masters don't usually push padawans away for random kids" which already was a breach of trust, especially since Qui-Gon didn't warn Obi-Wan beforehand. As I recently said in another thread, in repeat viewings McGregor's intensity in that scene holds up, even though "he hasn't got a lot to do", and it's edited nicely so you can pick up that there's a subtext that's not being spelled out. The main message being that Qui-Gon never sees the bigger picture when following his living Force whims.

    You might push the "childish jealousy" angle further, though, and have Obi-Wan be the wise one who says "eh, remember that Xanatos business, something's definitely wrong here", and Qui-Gon is up to his neck in his Whill-philosophy world view and just runs with it, not caring for people's feelings or, as it turns out, dangers to people's lives.

    Qui-Gon not wanting to accept fate here matches up with a lot of people in SW not really having desirable fates, the Skywalkers obviously being frontrunners in this. And in book #9, which is set only a few months later (and after the Xanatos business is over), Qui-Gon will have a vision of Obi-Wan's lonely future full of regrets. The Force leads them down this path, and thinking about it, as much as these two seem like a nice match (right up to their names), I wonder if the power of plot has actually made them a bad match glued together by fate's will. Obi-Wan isn't a model student; he hasn't got a lot of maturity to offer (okay, he's thirteen, but still), Anakin will need to teach him to loosen up because he's too strict with himself and, as it turns out, always has been. He does a lot of good under the circumstances and he's still one of my favourite characters, but based on this here, he's not a good choice for doing something this important. And even though they are obviously friends, Obi-Wan can't offer enough to pull Anakin through. Which is exactly the outcome that the Force needs.

    On another note, I think Wolverton identified quite a few of Episode I Obi-Wan's traits and built an interesting projection out of them. His anger getting the better of him under extreme circumstances, for example, is already in here (and continuity-wise, it's funny to see how this will turn up again in Obsession, when everyone thinks he's obsessed with Ventress for revenge, and in TCW when Maul goads him with Qui-Gon's death.
     
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  24. The Extreme Moderate

    The Extreme Moderate Jedi Grand Master star 1

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    Jun 30, 2005
    I actually really like Luceno's counter, written through Dooku, on the topic of The Chosen One and Qui-Gon's Living Force 'partisanship': "Despite his fixation with the living Force, he demonstrates his own contradictions by being a true believer in the prophecy [of the Chosen One] -- a foretelling more in line with the unifying Force" (Darth Plagueis, pp. 435). In other words, this passion- obsession, almost- of Qui-Gon to enlist Anakin so as to fulfill an ancient prophecy is actually somewhat uncharacteristic (though he still believes it was the "will of the Force" that they met).

    I would also posit that (if I may alter your line, Grey1 ) at least as seen in Darth Plagueis, Cloak of Deception and The Phantom Menace, that Qui-Gon is the only one to truly see the full picture when following his living Force whims. He is the only one that is able to see through Hego Damask's machinations, and debate him to a standstill. It's the only time (except with Sidious) that we see Darth Plagueis outmatched. In Cloak, Qui-Gon is the one to see the bigger issues going on, whereas the Jedi Council is more worried about the political constraints. As a result, the gains made toward uncovering the plots of Sidious, Havac and the Nebula Front are solely because of Jinn, and not the other Jedi. The other Jedi (including Obi-Wan) are constantly following his lead. When they disagree, they are usually found to be wrong. Too, he, alone, is the one who see the bigger picture in regards to groups trying to push the Republic to "forsake any interest in the free trade zones, and lay the groundwork for a separatist movement" (Cloak of Deception, pp. 246). Further, Qui-Gon can sense "an organizing hand at work" beyond Havac; "each time we draw close to identifying our adversary, it subverts and evades us" (pp. 263). Only Qui-Gon sees this.The Jedi don't, and in fact the Yaddle and the Council rebuke Qui-Gon: "If stopped for a moment to listen to the unifying force, seen what was coming you might have" (pp. 338). And, lastly, in TPM, Qui-Gon is the only one to see something bigger at stake with the embargo and invasion of Naboo. He is consistently the one who keeps the Sith plotters on their toes, but seeing through the distractions and distortions to perceive what is really going on. By eliminating him, they make their ultimate goals all the more achievable. As Plagueis thinks to himself, 'Qui-Gon is the key to everything.'
     
  25. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    I actually don't remember the Plagueis scene, but my gut reaction is that making Qui-Gon "obsessed" with the Chosen One prophecy is not only, as you say, contradictory for the character; it also is one of the downsides of namechecking all kinds of stuff. You could just as well have a scenario in which Qui-Gon, like all other Jedi, once heard of the prophecy but has got it filed away; but then there's something really special about Anakin that convinces him. I like this version better than Qui-Gon having this out-of-character obsession and randomly being convinced that he's found someone special. It would be especially good form to have a non-big-picture guy find the actual Chosen One because he sees the person first, not the impact. The Council, on the other hand, needs to see Anakin blow up the control ship and thus the entire droid army to be convinced that there's something special about him (since he's changing the big picture). But wars not make one great.

    On that note, it's not astonishing that Qui-Gon does see the bigger picture; the problem is that he can't affect it. It's a bit "does not compute". By seeing the detail of everything, he finds out that there's lots of tiny details that are not right and that should be different. He can't play the game, though; he can't influence the council because that's not the level he's playing on. The council, full of "Unifying Force" specialists who are worried about the big picture get caught in the numbers game; the big players and the masses have to be balanced out. There's no time for the small issues, so you might not see what's really going on in the world, and how you're in constant decline.

    So, maybe I'm wrong in saying that Qui-Gon can't see the big picture; but maybe it's all relative? Or inconsistence by the authors after all? So, Qui-Gon sees the Living Force, and that every individual in important, and that symbiosis is important, but as soon as society comes into play, even on a low level as noticing Obi-Wan's needs and fears, or on a higher one like being able to influence the council into seeing reason, he's blind. Maybe not all that interested. Maybe he's so concentrated on compassion, on helping, that he thinks that people with first world problems should just see reason and not make a fuss.