ST The Lightsaber

Woooow. Mungo Baobab, you're on fire. I like this theory WAY more than most of the ones I've read. Of course, me liking it has nothing to do with whether it will really happen in TFA, but one can always hope...

 

Dak Oolron Thanks!

Yeah, someone else may be able to come up with a much simpler, and closer interpretation of the Saber / Crystal / Force concept than I've done, but the basically, I realised ( whether correctly or not is up to the reader ) that everything made much, much more sense if the crystal in the saber, it's point of origin, Luke's disappearance, the villains search for it, and the Force where the entire driving point of the plot. All of the seemingly odd, and unconnected details fall into place, and you can basically summarise the plot of the movie in one image: The Lightsaber.

 

I was pondering this myself since it's confirmed that the Bespin saber is in the film, and I have a theory:
Bespin is a highly automated facility, no doubt swarming with maintenance droids- especially in the portions of it that are responsible for keeping it afloat. The saber could have easily fallen into one of the side channels like Luke did, only to have been recovered by a near by droid rather than disposed of automatically like Luke was.
To me, BB-8 looks like a droid that belongs in that facility- using his magnetic movement system to navigate the smooth metal air ducts. I like the thought of the Light side of the Force then guiding circumstances and situations that lead to him coming into contact with the heros that are needed to best use the now awakened power of the saber to combat the awakened Darkside Saber that Kylo wields.
I refused to believe rumor about the actual lightsaber somehow hurling through space- whether it's sent there intentionally or not. I also like the thought that Luke's decision to rush and face Vader in TESB now has an even deeper consequence. Perhaps Luke is powerless to stop the academy slaughter because he had to go up against someone wielding the Darkside Saber? His students get wiped out because he lost on Bespin what would have given him the power to overcome. This can help explain Luke's exile, and it can allow the last scene of the Film to be one showing "a new hope", as the Force manages to guide both the saber and the future of the Jedi to Luke's doorstep.

 

While I'm not sure how detailed the film makers will get in the explanation of the origins of the crystals themselves, I am in complete agreement with you on the fact the Bespin saber is this movie's "death star plans". Something highly valuable that a clever droid is carrying while on the run from the bad-guys. I believe it is the crystal in the saber that makes it so important now, and that's because the Force has awoken inside the crystal greatly enhancing the power of the one who wields it.

It's my hope that there is another crystal that has awoken with the power of the Darkside, and Kylo wields the saber containing that crystal.

 

A few more thoughts on the First Order, and what I believe to be cirmcumstancial evidence supporting the crystal theory:

We've heard of how the First Order's symbol closely resembles the emblem adopted by the Thule Society, and their links with the Nazis, and the rise of mysticism and neopaganism following the first world war, but the sun wheel, or black sun, that inspired the Thule Society's use of this symbol can be traced back to other occult sources that possibly give some insight into what The First Order's symbol may represent in TFA.

The Austrian occultist Karl Maria Wiligut was influential on the Thule Society, The Nazis, and Golden Dawn ( more on these later ).
One of the key elements of his ideas was that of the 'Black Sun', an ancient sun called Santur, which was directly opposite to our own, and which had been the source of power for an ancient civilisation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Maria_Wiligut

Santur is interpreted as a burnt-out sun that was still visible at the time of Homer. Rüdiger speculates that this was the center of the solar system hundreds of millennia ago, and he imagines a fight between the new and the old Suns that was decided 330,000 years ago.Santur is seen as the source of power of the Hyperboreans.

The Thule / Nazi appropriation of this idea is summed up thus:

The term Black Sun may originate with the mystical "Central Sun" in Helena Blavatsky'sTheosophy. This invisible or burnt out Sun (Karl Maria Wiligut's Santur in Nazi mysticism) symbolizes an opposing force or pole.[citation needed] Emil Rüdiger, of Rudolf John Gorslebens Edda-Gesellschaft (Edda Society), claimed that a fight between the new and the old Suns was decided 330,000 years ago (Karl Maria Wiligut dates this 280,000 years ago), and that Santur had been the source of power of the Hyperboreans.[citation needed]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(occult_symbol)

This feeds directly into the idea of Vril ( another ancient mythical energy source ), the Vril Society, and their links with the Thule Society:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril

The existence of a Vril-Society was alleged in 1960 by Jacques Bergier and Louis Pauwels.[13] In their book The Morning of the Magicians, they claimed that the Vril-Society was a secret community of occultists in pre-Nazi Berlin that was a sort of inner circle of the Thule Society. They also thought that it was in close contact with the English group known as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn was a contemperaneous British counterpart to the Thule Society, sharing many of the same beliefs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

Their organisational structure is very interesting:

The "Golden Dawn" was the first of three Orders, although all three are often collectively referred to as the "Golden Dawn". The First Order taught esoteric philosophy based on the Hermetic Qabalahand personal development through study and awareness of the four Classical Elements as well as the basics of astrology, tarot divination, and geomancy. The Second or "Inner" Order, the Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis (the Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold), taught proper magic, including scrying, astral travel, and alchemy. The Third Order was that of the "Secret Chiefs", who were said to be highly skilled; they supposedly directed the activities of the lower two orders by spirit communication with the Chiefs of the Second Order.

Golden Dawn were involved in many areas of New Age mysticism, including crystal mysticism:

In addition to governing and guiding the first order, members of the Inner Order would begin learning practical magic such as astral travel, alchemy, and scrying (attaining otherworldly visions with the aid of objects such as crystals and mirrors.

http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps...e-hermetic-order-of-the-golden-dawn-1888-1901

 

I don't know if this has gone over my head completely or it hasn't been posted here before, but I think this makes it very likely that the lightsaber contains the co-ordinates to Luke.

http://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLea..._of_the_throwaway_ideas_from_esb_sounds_like/

 

there's a thread where we talked about it.

Discussion - Connection: TFA and the Brackett ESB Script | Jedi Council Forums

 

And of course one of the most famous Gypsies of all time was Rose Lee.

 

Perhaps this has been discussed somewhere already, but I have some questions about the movie being built around this lightsaber...Luke's first lightsaber, which was Anakin's second Jedi lightsaber).

What would be the significance of it? In my view it corresponds to Anakin Skywalker more than Luke. (Luke used it for one battle and then lost it before building his own green one).

 

Maybe it's because the lightsaber once belonged to Anakin as to why it is so significant

 

Very interesting. The more I learn about Nazi-era paganism the more I scratch my head, lol.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the Bespin saber was previously owned by someone else pre-ROTS? Prior to Anakin's spree starting with Dooku through Mutafar. All the sword swapping in AOTC, and the general idea that during the Clone Wars Jedi didn't have the luxury of crafting each saber they used. I just wonder if this sword "came" to Anakin during the war from an older Jedi? Maybe the saber is older than we believe?

 

i believe he built it himself after aotc but they could change that.

 

Bullhead CIty that's an interesting thought. I suppose that in this scenario, it may have been the crystal that had a previous owner? Anakin's 2nd saber closely resembles his first, so I think it likely that the design of the saber itself came from Anakin.

Dak Oolron
Yes, it's a labyrinthine maze of the occult! I think the most salient points to take from it are that the TFA team ( I've a suspicion that it primarily came from Kasdan, because of his familiarity with the concept of Nazi occultism in the Indy movies ) have looked closely at Black Sun, the Thule Society, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, whilst devising the First Order. I think there's a very good chance that some of their signature beliefs ( such as the Black Sun ) may be paralleled in the First Order.

 

Are there any rumors confirming if Kylo Ren's crossguard lightsaber is realy an ancient relic?

 

I think you can see that its crudely made, I think this is something Ren has made himself.

 

I believe that the old Luke's lightsaber may be important because it has been used by Anakin when he was a good Jedi and then after he embraced the dark side, especially to exterminate the Jedi in the temple, wipe out all the Separatist leaders and fighting against Obi Wan Kenobi.

That saber - and the crystal inside of it - has been held by a person who used the light side of the Force aswell as the dark side.

And then it was passed to the most 'innocent' and naive Jedi Padawan in the galaxy.

This could be something quite interesting if connected to the 'grey' zones we've heard about the Force in TWA and also the management (storytelling wise) of the 'good and bad' theme...

 

My theory is that the crystal contains important information (like the location of Luke's planet seems to be a popular notion), and that Obiwan put that information into the crystal somehow prior to giving it to luke. Kinda like a message saying, "If I die, go here to get more training" or something, I dunno

 

I know this isn't the lightsaber we're discussing here, but my tangential mind just gave me a thought... Can you imagine the reaction in the theater if one of the bad guys wields the Darksaber?

 

(Very minor quibble)
I always assumed that what becomes the "Bespin Saber" is not Anakin's second, but rather that he had made and lost numerous sabers between when he becomes Obi-Wan's apprentice at the end of TPM and the start of RotS. AotC's sort of implies this, with the "Obi-Wan is going to kill me" line of Anakin's when his AotC's saber (which looks very similar to the Bespin Saber, leading to the likely chance that Anakin made the Bespin one also, rather than finding or taking it), as if it had happened before. Also, Obi-Wan's words to Anakin outside the bar in Coruscant. Of course, to all intents and purposes it is his second, at least from us (the audience's) pov.

 

^

Right. They were trading sabers throughout the Clone Wars era. Lightsabers became disposable, not the esteemed single weapon used throughout a Jedi's life as would a Samarai with his sword. That's why I had the idea that the sword Anakin winds up with just prior to ROTS may have had an older origin? Perhaps Palpatine pushed it his direction? Wasn't it in the spoilers that Finn is "attracted" to the Bespin saber, yet Rey "rejects" it?

I say the Bespin saber was built and owned by an older Jedi Master, many decades before TPM, that may have dabbled with powers that some would consider to be unnatural. It could have been some type of old model / prototypical example that was kept at the temple? (I know it looks like Anakin's "design", but could it have been the model for that type of weapon that suited Anakin's grip / fighting stance / style?)

Looking at the saga as a whole - why would Kenobi pick up Anakin's sword and take it with him? (Obviously, continuity reasons for ANH). If we took a broader look at that scenario, Anakin was as good as dead. The saber had a deluge of innocent blood on it. Why not throw it in the lava and destroy it? At that moment, Kenobi didn't know what kind of kid(s) were coming out of Padme; let alone it was still the future to formulate the "let's go into hiding until later" plan. Did it call out to him as well?

One other thing about Kylo's rig - I am wondering how Kylo's thinner blade with handle a full on swing from a more advanced light saber? Will it give or bend in some weird way? I think the secret ingredient of Kylo's saber is that it can extend and retract at his force command, unlike a traditional fixed length light saber. That's what makes the main blade and the smaller handle blades dangerous. If you lock up with him, be careful where you're standing and which way the handle is facing.

 

If it's the crystal inside the lightsabre that's important (as I believe) then is it virtually indestructible or do the First Order not want the information on it falling into the wrong hands?

Firstly, Kylo Ren knows that the lightsabre is in BB-8 but he gets his TIE fighters to fire on it whilst on Jakku.

Secondly, the TIE fighters continue their attack on the Falcon knowing that the lightsabre is on board.

Thirdly, Kylo Ren knows that the lightsabre is somewhere within Maz's place yet orders up a strike from the catapult.

 

This lightsaber plot line is just making zero sense to me. So many technicalities and retroactive detailing that its hard to keep up with. I feel like the Saber's only purpose is to symbolize the jedi, allow for some lightsaber duels, and then tie in to Luke. This could have been done with Luke's second saber, but because it looks like Anakin's it is throwing everyone for a loop. I honestly think this was just a personal choice made by JJ and Kasdan. Could be wrong, but I'm hoping that they at least explain in some mild sense how this saber still exists/how it was found.

 

Luke explores another fallen Jedi's lightsaber in the new canon novel. The original way (probably now Legends) the Sith got their red lightsaber crystals is they took a standard Kyber Crystal and, using the Force, changed the structure to make them more powerful. We're going to learn a lot more about them in the coming months / years. I'd wager a good portion of this new learning will be through the Rebels cartoons.