main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

CT The lost pilots and scenes from the Endor space battle in Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Lt. Hija, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Because I ended up talking with Hernalt about various details of the space battle of Endor somewhat off-topic in this parallel thread - http://boards.theforce.net/threads/luke-and-rogue-squadron.50040827/page-2 - I thought that a new thread devoted to the issue might be the appropriate approach, hopefully inviting some JCF specialists and historians to weigh-in with their knowledge.

    Have you ever heard of the Black Friday of November 22, 1982? That was the day ILM’s Ken Ralston, in charge of the space battle choreography in JEDI, learned that a lot of visual effects (VFX) material would not make it into the final cut from the film.

    "100 visual effects shots and many pages of action were changed, added or deleted from the various end battle sequences." (Rinzler’s Making of Return of the Jedi, 2013, page 259)

    Ken Ralston: “George made a drastic cut on the film - a horrible, horrible drastic cut - and threw out about 40 (36 according to his Cinefex interview) shots of mine and somewhere around 30 or 40 of Richard's [Edlund]. It all added up to about 250 ships we'd shot from scenes we’d been working on, all this stuff, all this material, was just tossed out and we couldn’t even use them on other shots. … and in some shots we're pulling stuff out because we were confusing the story point with overkill.”

    The story before

    In December 1981 the (original) screenplay for Revenge of the Jedi was finished. Examination of the genuine script (and not the transcript based on the finished film that re-incarnated everywhere ever since its first publication in the 1983 The Art of Return of the Jedi) reveals that a lot of space battle scenes didn’t exist in the original script but were actually added in the following months.

    The destruction of the super Star Destroyer’s bridge was already there, as it had been one of the first EMI studio sets built when live-action footage shooting began in the UK in January 1981. These bridge scenes were shot February 9th, followed by the briefing room scenes aboard Ackbar’s ship (John Philip Peacher’s Making of Return of the Jedi, 1983). Storyboards for the space battle were created at the same time principal shooting took place in the UK.

    In early March 1982 X-Wing cockpit footage was shot on Stage 9 with “Wedge and three other X-Wing pilots”. Because only George Lucas knew how the live-action footage would combine with the later VFX, he „will spent most of the week doing these shots" (Peacher, page 147)
    On March 5th, more dialogue was created for Billy Dee Williams, and all the Lando dialogue in the Falcon cockpit was shot in one session on March 19th (Rinzler, page 180).
    It stands to reason that the same type of dialogue recording technique and identical lines were used for all pilots and cockpit footage scenes, so that Lucas had plenty of options which pilots to assign which line in the upcoming combination with the VFX, yet we only saw the (unused) cockpit footage of the two female A-Wing and the two alien B-Wing pilots as a bonus feature of the 2011 Complete Saga Blu-ray disc set and the (last) part of the female X-Wing pilot at conventions. Pilot lines (A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing) that made it into the final film are shown in bold, slight deviations to the actual dialogue in final film are probably owed to re-dubbing the UK actors with American voices:

    "Green Leader standing by." / "Three of them coming in 30 degrees." / "I'm on it, Red Leader." / "There's too many of them! / "You're taking a lot of fire! Back off!" / "Red Four, watch out!" / "I'm hit!" / "It's your left power supply!" / "Got it." / "If you pick one up, watch it." / "My scope's negative. Where is he?" / "Red Six, a squad of fighters have broken through." / "We're starting our attack run on the main power tree." / "I copy. Moving into position." / "Stay clear of their front batteries." 7 "It's a heavy fire zone down there." / "I'm in range." / "Right with you." / "I'm losing power." / "Get clear. She's gonna blow!" / "I'm on the leader." / "Stay away from those side guns." / "Heavy fire. I see it. Look out." / "Pull up! Pull up!" / "Stay close to the ground." / "Firing proton torpedoes." / "I've lost my main stabilizer. I can't pull out."



    Reconstructing the original space battle chronology

    Because the popular “screenplay” of “Return” of the Jedi is first and foremost a transcript that reflects the final film, the only original source remaining is the film’s novelization by James Kahn. Since he apparently embellished the depiction of the Rebel fleet on a grand scale, compared to the shorter screenplay depiction, there had been doubt about the accuracy of the narration in the novelization that exceeded what was shown in the final film.
    Yet, two original and additional screenplay pages reveal a word-for-word fidelity transcript, while the aforementioned dialogue recorded by the pilot actors and actresses reflects equally faithful, and he didn’t fix one obvious continuity error (i.e. Green Leader dies twice). Therefore Kahn’s depiction of the battle obviously illustrates the original chronology / screenplay, but must have missed a couple of last minute additions that are in the actual film but not the novelization.

    What follows is an attempt to reconstruct the original “chapters” of the space battle of Endor (and the order of scenes before final cut) and the actual pilots participating before George Lucas’ “slaughter” of the Black Friday of 1982. Actual dialogue from the finished film shows bold, extra dialogue from the novelization shows normal and further dialogue (other sources) in italic.

    Chapter One: Into the trap

    ACKBAR May the Force be with us.

    Lando looks worriedly at his alien copilot, Nien Nunb, who points to
    the control panel and talks to Lando.

    LANDO We've got to be able to get some kind of a reading on that shield, up
    or down. Well, how could they be jamming us if they don't know if we're coming.

    Lando shoots a concerned look out at the approaching Death Star as the implications of what he's just said sink in. He hits a switch on his comlink.

    LANDO Break off the attack! The shield is still up.

    RED LEADER (VO) I get no reading. Are you sure?

    LANDO Pull up! All craft pull up!

    The Falcon turns hard to the left. Out the window the stars and the Death Star move off right.The Falcon and the fighters of Red Squad veer off desperately to avoid the unseen wall.

    Alarms are screaming and lights flashing as the huge ship changes course abruptly. Other ships in the fleet shoot by outside as the armada tries to halt its forward momentum.

    ACKBAR Take evasive action! Green Group, stick close to holding sector MV-7.
    (original dialogue: Green Group steer course for Holding Sector. MG-7 Blue Group -)

    A Mon Calamari controller turns away from his screen and calls out to Ackbar, quite excited. The Admiral rushes over to the controller.

    CONTROLLER Admiral, we have enemy ships in sector 47.
    (original dialogue: enemy ships at Sector RT-23 and PB-4)

    On the screen can be seen the moon, Death Star, and the massive Imperial fleet. Ackbar moves to the comlink.

    ACKBAR It's a trap! Prepare for attack!

    LANDO (over comlink) Fighters coming in! Here we go!.

    There is much excitement on the bridge as the attack begins.

    ACKBAR Launch all interceptions.

    An Aide approaches Ackbar

    AIDE We’ve added power to the forward shield.

    ACKBAR Good! Double power on the main battery.

    An Aide points to the battle raging outside the window.

    AIDE Gold wing is hit hard!

    ACKBAR Give them cover! Order them back. We must have time!

    Ackbar turns towards the control room.

    ACKBAR Order all ships to stand their position. Wait for my command to return.

    (information from additional scene 101 A from February 15, 1982 in italic)

    According to the novelization the Squad(ron) leaders / “wings” reported in, after the operational Death Star protection shield had been discovered. The original report included a “Blue Leader” reporting “standing by” while Gray Leader was destroyed before he could report.

    According to the novelization three X-Wings crashed into the unseen deflector shield as storyboarded. It is unknown whether the VFX element was shot or abandoned at an early stage.

    Chapter Two coming up soon.
     
  2. Thane_Kyrell

    Thane_Kyrell Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 16, 2016
    I am guessing a lot of this material was used in the book Lost Stars as it describes a lot more of the battle and talks about more fighter squadrons than the film does.
     
  3. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    people bemoan the fact these ladies were cut but they aren't good actors at all. the first one is terrible. the older one is slightly better. i was thinking of cutting some together but they aren't great. all of the scenes are better off deleted.
     
    Thane_Kyrell likes this.
  4. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Does anyone know how to effect HTML tables in this board script?
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Well, you'll read about all there was in the upcoming chapters, but there wasn't any "Yellow" or "Corona" Squadron in the original scenes.

    I concur, but my overall impression is that the cockpit footage scenes of all the pilots other than Wedge was done in a hurry. Notice that the segment where actress Poppy Hands (Red Three, "Sila Kott") would have said "Got it" is missing from that footage. That's the short segment that made it into the actual film (with a male voice-over), which probably tells us that what saw here is a black & white copy of the original negative, after the "Got it" segment was taken out.

    This would then suggest that everything else we still see here, was never taken out for any other close-to-finish scenes but possibly discarded at a very early stage. But as an (almost) complete "pilot lines" recording session it gives us a good idea, what kind of dialogue all the other pilot actors had to say, too. ;)
     
  6. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    This thread lists extant scripts of Revenge of the Jedi and Return of the Jedi:
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-history-of-the-writing-of-sw-ep-i-vi.50021845/
    So far I am only able to locate and download

    "STAR WARS – EPISODE VI : “REVENGE OF THE JEDI”
    
Written by GEORGE LUCAS

    REVISED ROUGH DRAFT

    June 12, 1981"
    ,
    "RETURN OF THE JEDI
    by Lawrence Kasdan & George Lucas
    From The Novel by George Lucas
    Third Draft
    Property of Lucasfilm Ltd.
    Completion Date December 1, 1981"
    ,
    "STAR WARS
    EPISODE VI
    REVENGE OF THE JEDI
    BY LAWRENCE KASDAN AND GEORGE LUCAS
    FROM THE NOVEL BY GEORGE LUCAS
    SECOND DRAFT - DECEMBER 19, 1982"

    Is this the extent of public domain scripts? This limitation hampers fair analysis of the evolution of the space battle. Interpolating between these *can be done, but such results will have large error bars.
     
  7. Thane_Kyrell

    Thane_Kyrell Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 16, 2016
     
  8. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    As far as I can tell the Revenge transscript from June 12, 1981 is genuine. You can spot the phonies rightaway once they feature the word-for-word transcript from the final film. One of my friends has the genuine script version from December 19, 1981 and he wrote me back that all it contains (in the context of the upcoming Chapter Two) is this:

    LANDO
    Accelerate to attack speed! Draw their fire away from the cruisers.

    WEDGE
    Copy, Gold Leader.

    The battle continues around the giant cruisers.

    Now, compare this to the novelization which apparently features the entire new and bigger scene, obviously written and added after December 19, 1981:

    Chapter Two: Protecting the large cruisers

    Lando is in radio communication with the pilots of the other Rebel squads.

    WEDGE Here they come.
    LANDO Accelerate to attack speed! Draw their fire away from the cruisers as long as possible.

    WEDGE Copy, Gold Leader. We are moving to .3 across the axis-

    GREEN LEADER Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!

    WEDGE I see them. Cut to the left! I'll take the leader!

    LANDO Watch yourself, Wedge! Three from above!

    WEDGE Yeah, I –

    GRAY LEADER I’m on it, Gold Leader. (“Red Leader” was probably redubbed “Gold Leader”)

    (Blasts TIE interceptor in the vicinity of a Rebel cruiser)

    ASIAN Y-WING PILOT There's too many of them!

    PILOT You're taking a lot of fire! Back off!

    PILOT Red Four, watch out!

    RED FOUR I’m hit!

    The X-Wing spins, sparking across the starfield, out of power, into the void.

    RED SIX You’ve picked one up, watch it!

    WEDGE My scope’s negative, where is he?

    PILOT Red Six, a squad of fighters has broken through.

    The battle continues around the giant cruisers.

    The Falcon and other Rebel fighters are engaged in a ferocious combat
    with Imperial TIE fighters, the battle raging around the cruisers of the
    Rebel armada.

    WEDGE They're heading for the Medical Frigate. After them!

    LANDO I’m going in. There’re four marks at .35. Cover me!

    WEDGE Right behind you, Gold Leader. Red Three, Red Two, pull in!

    RED THREE Got it!

    (Red Three is destroyed by the two TIE interceptors which themselves are destroyed by the Y-Wing above the port side wing of a Rebel Star Cruiser)

    WEDGE Good shot, Red Two.

    PILOT Hang on, back there,

    PILOT Close up formations, Blue Group

    LANDO Not bad. I’ll take out the other three

    Lando steers the Falcon through a complete flip (around a Rebel Cruiser, apparently “Medical Frigate” in the final edit), as his crew fires at the TIEs from the belly guns.

    NAVIGATOR Pressure's steady.

    The copilot Nien Nunb chatters an observation.

    LANDO You’re right. Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.

    Nien Nunb chatters another observation

    LANDO I see ‘em. We’re sure in the middle of it, now. Come on, Han, old buddy. Don't let me down.

    As the last sentence in the novelization clarifies, Lando’s “buddy” comment occurred much earlier in the context of this first battle sequence (ahead of the scene aboard the super Star Destroyer bridge where Admiral Piett informed his “fleet commander” that the Emperor had “something special planned”).

    The later scene probably cannibalized this earlier sequence, by lifting material from it, especially Gray Leader’s “I’m on it, Gold Leader” followed by Wedge’s “Good shot, Red Two” which created a continuity error, as Gold Leader seemed to have become Red Two.

    Having watched the close to final new edit, it appears that Ken Ralston was addressing this particular continuity error on January 17, 1983: "When the sequences got changed around, it affected a lot of what we'd already begun shooting. A shot that was 20th in the space battle sequence might now be in the 50th position, so the shot that came before it - maybe a TIE ship flying around and blowing up - is now a cruiser with an X-Wing....It's more than just dropping shots. It's also juggling around the existing continuity. That's thrown me off a bit." (Cinefex # 13)

    And it’s also obvious that Green Leader’s “Three of them coming in, twenty degrees” originally didn’t follow the death of Red Three (“Sila Kott”) but was spoken much earlier during this sequence.

    There is a clear reference to the unseen Rebel pilots Red Four and Red Six. While the novelization provides no clue what kind of fighter Red Six would have been, it clearly identifies Red Four as an X-Wing. Based on the information that there were only 3 other pilots that were shot in X-Wing cockpits next to Wedge (what about Luke?) narrows the choice down to the African American pilot (“She’s gonna blow”), the pilot with the moustache (who got shot down inside the Death Star) and the female pilot, played by Vivienne Chandler (“Dorovio Bold”). Thus, probability is high that the female pilot was Red Four and that it was her “I’m hit” that was selected from the standard list of pilot chatter (unless one of the male pilots was rescued by the Medical Frigate and sent back into the battle later).

    [​IMG]

    Considering that the first Rebel pilot that was taken out of the battle in NEW HOPE was also Red Four (John D.), “Jane D.” might have been the correct production name for “Dorovio Bold”. ;)
     
  9. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I cannot figure out something rather crucial. You're saying there's a script that has a publication date, "December 19, 1981". Is that the exact same thing as the "SECOND DRAFT - DECEMBER 19, 1982"? Is there *zero alterations between the two? If so, what the the purpose of the date change, title change or revision terminology? My eye would easily assume there was some kind of typo that the "1982" must surely mean "1981", yet, "1982" is repeated constantly across the downloads from multiple unique websites.

    And this record of a sale, at least to my eye, indicates that the "2nd draft script Dec 19, 1982" was not a very finalized or sanitized product to be having the year "1982" on it. This claims to have a great deal of inserted pages with script revisions, and the price reflects due diligence on authentication.
    http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/14871707.html

    Lastly, how does the release date of the novelization, May 12, 1983, relate to the dates of the drafts? There are lines in the novel that are in the film that are *Not in the latest script. E.g., "We're in the middle of it now."
     
  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Hernalt

    Here is what I can tell you with 100% assurance. My friend does own a genuine Revenge of the Jedi screenplay copy (of the third draft) from December 19, 1981. I forwarded him the reconstructed scenes of "Chapter Two" (featuring Red Four and Red Six) and the (upcoming) attack on the jamming Star Destroyer (Chapter 9 of the novelization) and he explicitly wrote me back that these two scenes are not in the December 19, 1981 screenplay, i.e these must have been added later.

    According to another friend from Sweden, the screenplay you and me would love to have a look at is the "revised third draft" featuring revisions by George Lucas from January 4, 1982. That's basically the shooting script as principal photography in the UK started in January 1982.

    Does this one include the extended battle scenes? I'm not certain. Somehow thus far I've gotten the impression that the space battle had a minor priority for George Lucas. IMHO, he probably just arrived with a sheet of pilot chatter lines (which you thankfully transcripted from the lost pilots rediscovered footage) / useful phrases which he then would later somehow edit together with the VFX footage.
    My guess is that just like the additional scenes featuring Ackbar on the Headquarters Frigate bridge set (before the set was demolished), most of these battle scenes also arrived as "additional scenes" with the only one ever having a chance to compile these was James Kahn for his ROJ novelization. Finding these pages anywhere nowadays is probably even more difficult than the proverbial needle in the haystick. :(
     
  11. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    It makes sense the space battle had the lowest priority. The core characters were in the other two sets. The moral thesis of the three movies was Luke's action. The moral thesis was brought into sharpest focus by the plight of Luke's friends on the forest moon. The space battle was a further instrument of focus or frame.

    Did James Khan actions have any influence on the outcome of any script or the film? Or do James Khan's actions only occur after all script and all film has been committed? I'm trying to understand how the light cone of James Khan relates to the light cone of the final script and the final film. Because the last two available scripts I can locate, that are dated Third Draft Dec 1 1981, and Second Draft Dec 19 1982, both say "from the novel by George Lucas". Is the "novel" by George Lucas a generalized concept of a story that is big enough to be novelized, or, is it in reference to the novelization by George Lucas that was actually ghost written by James Khan, and so, the script actually post-dates the novel by James Khan? What is "the novel" that is referred to in the last two script headers?

    Right now I'm halfway through interlacing the novelization etext with the lines of the Dec 19 1982 Second Draft. The next possible text source to interlace will be the Dec 1 1981 Third Draft.
     
  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Hernalt

    The novelization was definitely by James Kahn ("Story by George Lucas"). Looking for the book cover to post here, I came across Mr. Kahn's website and that is what he said about the novelization process: http://thatjameskahn.com/products/return-of-the-jedi ([face_thinking] I think I should be writing Mr. Kahn...).

    Chapter Three: The Emperor’s surprise

    The giant laser dish on the completed half of the Death Star begins to
    glow; Then a powerful beams shoots out toward the aerial battle.

    The air is thick with giant ships. In among them, Rebel X-wings
    dogfight with Imperial TIE fighters. Now an enormous Rebel cruiser is
    hit by the Death Star beam and is blown to dust.

    The Millennium Falcon roars over CAMERA, followed closely by several TIE
    fighters.

    The ship is buffeted by the tremendous explosion of the Rebel cruiser.
    Lando and his copilot are stunned by the sight of the Death Star
    firepower.

    LANDO That blast came from the Death Star! That thing's operational! (into comlink) Home One, this is Gold Leader.

    Ackbar stands amid the confusion on the wide bridge and speaks into the
    comlink.

    ACKBAR We saw it. All craft prepare to retreat.

    LANDO You won't get another chance at this, Admiral.

    ACKBAR We have no choice, General Calrissian. Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude.

    LANDO Han will have that shield down. We've got to give him more time. Head for those Star Destroyers.

    Ackbar looks around then makes a decision
    ACKBAR Move the fleet forward.
    AIDE Yes sir.
    Ackbar turns to a Star Captain. Stands next to him.
    CAPTAIN Sir, we don’t stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they’re more heavily armored.
    ACKBAR I know.
    An Aide approaches.
    AIDE Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet.
    Ackbar points to a Star Destroyer in front of them.
    ACKBAR Concentrate on their power generators. If we can knock out their shield our fighters might stand a chance against them.
    The ship is rocked by an explosion.
    CAPTAIN (yelling) Intensify forward shield! (Intensify auxiliary shields!)
    (information from additional scene 113 A from February 15, 1982 in italic)

    This beginning of this sequence appears to have been left unaltered, yet the sequence of some words is different from the novelization which suggests some last minute rewrites and re-arranging on location.
    Though written and shot as an additional scene, scene 113 A ultimately didn’t make it into the final film, yet it clarifies that that the Rebels didn’t target deflector shield generators on top of the Star Destroyers, but instead power generators (power “trees”) providing the deflector shield energy!

    Chapter Four: Change of strategy

    The Rebel fleet continues to be picked off, from one side by the Death Star's deadly beam, from the other by the rampaging Imperial Star Destroyers.

    Lando steers the Falcon wildly through an obstacle course of floating giants. He's been yelling into the comlink.

    LANDO (desperately) Yes! I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range. That way the Death Star won’t be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!

    ACKBAR But no one’s ever gone nose to nose at that range, between super vessels like their destroyers and our cruisers!

    LANDO Great! Then we’re inventing a new kind of combat!

    ACKBAR We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!

    LANDO We’ll know as much as they do! And they’ll think we know more!

    ACKBAR At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers.

    LANDO We'll last longer then we will against that Death Star...and we might just take a few of them with us.

    The Rebel cruisers move very close to the Imperial Star Destroyers and begin to blast away at point-blank range. Tiny fighters race across the giant surfaces, against a backdrop of laser fire.

    The control tower of a Star Destroyer is under attack.

    X-WING PILOTShe's gonna blow!

    Y-WING PILOTI'm hit!

    The damaged Y-wing plummets toward the Star Destroyer, and crashes into the control tower, exploding.

    This original sequence is rather interesting from a VFX point of view. The Y-Wing didn’t crash into the control tower of a Star Destroyer but into its front batteries. That fate was originally reserved for an A-Wing in the upcoming Chapter Five. Yet, the shot with the large VFX control tower model suggested that an A-Wing (having just fired proton torpedoes at the starboard power generator) would have crashed into the control tower.
    It would appear that both the Y-Wing crashing into the front batteries of a Star Destroyer and the A-Wing crashing into a control tower were new scenes that were created after the scene in Chapter Five had been irreversibly discarded.
    Question remains whether the X-Wing exploding first before the African American X-Wing pilot, could have been the female X-Wing pilot played by Vivienne Chandler, having lost her stabilizer.
     
  13. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    [​IMG]

    From:
    http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77836

    CHAPTER II PRODUCTIONS LTD.
    "REVENGE OF THE JEDI"
    Call Sheet No: 42A
    (Second Unit)
    Stage: 9 (BLUE SCREEN)
    SET: INT. 'X' WING COCKPIT
    Order of shooting:
    1. Through cockpit onto pilot
    2. Profile 'X' Wing
    DATE: Tuesday, 9th March,1982
    SCENE NOs: Battle sequence from Scene 102 through to 129.

    ARTIST / CHARACTER
    DENIS LAWSON / WEDGE
    VIVIENNE CHANDLER / 'X' WING PILOT
    BILLY J. MITCHELL / 'X' WING PILOT
    RONNIE CUSH / 'X' WING PILOT
    ...
    Wednesday, 10/3 INT. 'A' Wing COCKPIT
    ...
    Friday, 12/3 INT. FIGHTER COCKPIT POVs

    ----------------------

    I. From Third Draft Dec 1, 1981. The shots of these three pilots would have occurred after the DSII was shown to be operational, but before Lando and Wedge escaped from inside the DSII.

    102 EXT SPACE - IMPERIAL FLEET
    The giant Imperial Star Destroyer waits silently some distance from the
    battle. The Emperor's huge Super Star Destroyer rests in the middle of
    the fleet.

    129 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE
    There is excitement on the bridge as the battle rages on all sides.
    They cheer as the giant Star Destroyer blows up

    II. Billy J Mitchell is the X-Wing pilot that was shot down inside the DSII, and Ronnie Cush is the black pilot.
    I'm going to assume just from the fact that "She's gonna blow" Does get said, and I've shown likelihood that Vivienne Chandler ran through all the Lost Rebels lines, that Billy J Mitchell could have just as well read All the lines himself. Or, he may have had a similar call sheet report time to the other two who demonstrably *did read lines, only to wait seven hours, sit in the cockpit, say nothing, and have squibs blow up around him. See this resources for some faces and actor name matches:
    http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1101645

    III. Notice 'Order of shooting: 1. Through cockpit onto pilot 2. Profile 'X' Wing'
    The Lost Rebels reel suggests that everyone got a line reading face on. I have surmised that two cameras rolled during each face-on. A mid field of view that included useful background through the cockpit window, so that nice blue screen VFX might be added in post production, and a closer / close up shot that excluded the cockpit windows. This here 'profile' shows what we see with Gray Leader / Red Two: The left side of his face with blue screen to his right. I don't recall other pilots getting that. Supposedly there is a shot in the original ROTJ trailer of 1983/1982 that has a Wedge profile shot. From:
    http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/the-battle-above-endor/
    [​IMG]

    IV. I will wager that the call sheet for Wednesday March 10 Second Unit Stage 9 will show the three actors, minimum, that we know that sat in the A-Wing cockpit. I think we would get the 'mom' actress' name.

    V.
    [​IMG]
    From http://cinetropolis.net/unsung-heroes-gerald-home-return-of-the-jedis-man-beneath-the-masks/

    Beware that these scene numbers are not entirely stable. Scene numbers for Ackbar on the above call sheet include some scene that are, in the Third Draft Dec 1, 1981, *not going to be featuring Ackbar. E.g.

    85 EXT RIDGE
    Han, Leia and company watch in distress. Chewie barks.
    HAN (sighs)
    There goes our surprise attack.
    ,
    117 INT EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM
    ,
    125 INT EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM
     
    Lt. Hija likes this.
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    @ Hernalt =D= =D= =D=

    That's an impressive find you made! And it tells us / proves that we saw all the X-Wing pilots that ever were there in ROJ (except for Vivienne Chandler). According to Peecher's Making of Jedi they also shot "over the shoulder POVs", but the call sheet doesn't mention these and we saw none in the final film (yet, that would explain a "stand-in" for Mr. Lawson / Wedge).

    So the A-Wing cockpit shots were scheduled for the following day, interesting. Just makes me wonder when they shot the Y-Wing and B-Wing cockpit footage. My guess would be Friday. Because how much time would you need to shoot a "fighter cockpit POV" (i.e. straight ahead from the pilot's POV)? 10 seconds each would have sufficed as a standard template to be later combined with different VFX (and the only one we saw was Gray Leader's / Red Two's blasting a TIE interceptor).

    P.S.
    Would you mind sharing the link for the draft from December 1, 1981?
     
  15. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html
    Has the header:
    "RETURN OF THE JEDI
    by Lawrence Kasdan & George Lucas
    From The Novel by George Lucas
    Third Draft
    Property of Lucasfilm Ltd.
    Completion Date December 1, 1981"
    Lando lives.

    http://www.ssonlineuniverse.net/starwars/scripts/ROTJScript.shtml
    Has the header:
    "Episode VI
    REVENGE OF THE JEDI
    BY LAWRENCE KASDAN AND GEORGE LUCAS
    FROM THE NOVEL BY GEORGE LUCAS
    SECOND DRAFT - DECEMBER 19, 1982"
    Lando and the MF are destroyed.

    I don't know why the later is the second draft, and the earlier is the third draft, but I get it that Lucas was passing versions back and forth.

    I've been acquiring as many Elstree Studios call sheets and progress reports as I can. So far I have not hit the B-Wing, A-Wing or Y-Wing sheets/reports. I did hit some MF cockpit ones. I have tried a few actor names and will continue to try till I'm certain I have what is in public domain. I have maybe 30 unique call sheets / progress reports. The bottom price for authentic copies of any one specimen of a call sheet or progress report is 200 Pounds, so, it's obvious people won't just digitize the information for the humanitarian altruism of it.

    The individual known A-Wing actor names yielded no additional records. Poppy Hands has two credits to her name, both single appearances, on IMDB. She has been on the autograph circuit. Hilton McCrae has had a successful career; no hits at this level. Michael Drew has also been on the autograph circuit. I have yet to do searches on individual Y-Wing actor names, and I do not yet know the actor names of the B-Wing pilots in the Lost Rebels reel.

    Another piece of data informing total number / frequency of Sallustans is that there is a Sallustan in fatigues aboard the MF in the Lost Rebels reel. He's not a gunner but he manages a fire or something. So that lowers the total oddity that the Sallustan in the B-Wing is completely unrelated to Ten Nunb (white flight suit) or Nein Nunb (copiloting MF).

    The last line on Call Sheet No 42A where it says "INT FIGHTER COCKPITS POVs" is interesting. It would seem to me that spinning around the whole mobile prop would allow them to get their 10-20-30 seconds of pilot POV for each model. But maybe that is not easy at all. But then maybe all they're doing on Friday is setting up the cockpit canopy against the blue screen, with no motion, no additional framing from the cockpit prop itself, and just getting some frames. That might be quite straightforward, and done easier than turning the entire set around.

    Does one of you making of books have a scene list? Or a list of shots by date? You might be able to corner one of these fighter type / POV questions.

    EDIT
    I just started searching again and located a sold call sheet, No 25. I cannot link to its images directly because that would be hot linking. I may yet find a public domain scan of Call Sheet 25, but here's the data. It's for the Alliance briefing.

    "
    CROWD FOR SCENE 54:
    8 CALAMARI MEN (Mime Artists)
    4 STAR FISH (Crowd)
    1 Nien Nunb
    3 Prune Face (Crowd)
    4 DIGNITARIES (Women/Crowd)
    11 REBEL TECHNICIAN[sic] (Men/Crowd)
    11 REBEL TECHNICIANS (Women/Crowd)
    8 PILOTS - ORANGE (4 Men + 1 Woman/Crowd)[sic]
    7 PILOTS - GREEN (6 Men + 1 Woman/Crowd)
    7 REBEL GENERAL (Men/Crowd)
    4 PILOTS - DARK RED (3 Men + 1 Woman)
    11 CAMOUFLAGED REBEL FOREST TROOPS (Men/Crowd)
    5 PILOTS - GRAY (Men/Crowd)
    TOTAL: 87
    "

    This 12 Days of Christmas Call Sheet No 25 destroys the question of whether or not the Sallustan standing next to Lando was in fact Nien Nunb.
     
  16. PaulWrightyThen

    PaulWrightyThen Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Just want to say thanks for this thread. Its a great read :)
     
  17. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    PaulWrightyThen

    Thank you. You are most welcome. :)

    Hernalt

    I consider the script at IMDB to be definitely a phony, i.e. wrong title (it was Revenge, not Return back in 1981) and essentially just a transcript of the final edit / cut dialogue which does nowhere reflect the changes in chronology ILM's Ken Ralston had stated.

    The other link has gotten the name right, yet by December 1982 we are so close to the final cut, that it essentially is the transcript. It's identical to the transcript except for the Lando death scene. To me it looks as if the author just acquired the Lando death scene and changed that particular part, but other than that it still looks like a phony to me.

    Does one of you making of books have a scene list? Or a list of shots by date? You might be able to corner one of these fighter type / POV questions.

    Peechers Making of ROJ has a scene list with production dates, but according to it the X-Wing cockpit footage was shot on two days (!) and does not mention any other cockpit footage at all, so it seems to be a bit incomplete and unreliable, unfortunately.

    This 12 Days of Christmas Call Sheet No 25 destroys the question of whether or not the Sallustan standing next to Lando was in fact Nien Nunb.

    I'd like that, but I'm not sure. Would they have written "Sullustan" instead of "Nien Nunb"? In the hangar departure scene it would be "Nien Nunb", because he was just waiting for Lando to say his good-byes.
    Now, if the call sheet for the deleted Falcon interior scenes (with a Sullustan using a fire extinguisher or else) would say "Sullustan" instead of "Nien Nunb" there'd be a clear distinction, which then would - indeed - suggest, that we saw Nien Nunb in a B-Wing flight suit standing next to Wedge during the briefing.
     
  18. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I. These things in the public domain they call scripts are an architecture. The giveaway for me that these are transcripts is "Pressure steady" while the MF rolls around the Medical Frigate.

    II. It got too late for me last night, but after I found the Alliance briefing call sheet I found the first day of the 2-day X-Wing shoot. I have the same issue as with the other already-sold call sheet. If I find it in public domain I'll post the link to that. The information is as follows.

    CHAPTER II PRODUCTIONS LTD.
    "REVENGE OF THE JEDI"
    Call Sheet No: 41A
    (Second Unit)
    Stage: 9 (BLUE SCREEN)
    SET: INT. 'X' WING COCKPIT
    Order of shooting:
    1. Through cockpit onto pilot
    2. Profile 'X' Wing
    3. Over shoulder pilot
    DATE: Monday, 8th March,1982
    SCENE NOs: Battle sequence from Scene 102 through to 129.

    ARTIST / CHARACTER
    DENIS LAWSON / WEDGE
    VIVIENNE CHANDLER / 'X' WING PILOT
    BILLY J. MITCHELL / 'X' WING PILOT
    RONNIE CUSH / 'X' WING PILOT
    ...
    Tuesday, 9/3 INT. 'X' WING COCKPIT
    Wednesday, 10/3 INT. 'A' Wing COCKPIT
    ...
    Friday, 12/3 INT. FIGHTER COCKPIT POVs

    So the difference with this earlier day is the "3. Over shoulder pilot".

    III. That raised a question for me on whether or not the Y-Wing pilot POV would be accurate when "Red Two" takes out a TIE. Turns out that continuity is intact. That footage with "Red Two" matches this Y-Wing set interior. So then there may be a Call Sheet where Y-Wings also get
    "1. Through cockpit onto pilot
    2. Profile 'Y' Wing
    3. Over shoulder pilot"

    [​IMG]
    From https://www.pinterest.com/pin/414120128211178370/

    IV. I'll try to keep an eye out for the hangar departure scene.
     
  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    [​IMG]

    Hernalt

    Good find, looks like that's the one Mr. Peecher had at his disposal, was the one you featured in your previous post.

    I think the above sample from ANH (and those from ESB) qualifies as a true "over shoulder pilot" in contrast to the pilot's point of view (b & w shot in your previous post).
    If there were any "over shoulder pilot" shots in ROJ, definitely none made it into the film.

    I'm afraid any call sheet for the hangar departure scene will definitely say "Nien Nunb", because it was him. To determine whether "Nien Nunb" was a synonym for "Sullustan" would require the call sheet for the deleted Falcon interior scenes.
     
    ATMachine likes this.
  20. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I just located Call Sheet 44A. Same limitations regarding hot linking.

    "
    CHAPTER II PRODUCTIONS LTD.
    "REVENGE OF THE JEDI"
    Call Sheet No: 44A
    (Second Unit)
    STAGE: 9
    DATE: Thursday, 11th March,1982

    SETS:
    1. INT. 'Y' & 'A' WINGS (over shoulder POV's)
    2. BLACK VELVET (Ewok Village)

    SC. NOS:
    1. 102. 120. 125 to complete.
    2. 136 pt.

    ARTISTE: / CHARACTER:
    1. Double: A.N. OTHER / for 'A' & 'Y' WING PILOT

    2. ALEC GUINESS /BEN KENOBI
    FRANK OZ / YODA
    ...
    ART DEPT: S/BY with perspex for over should [sic] POV's of 'Y' & 'A' Wings.
    ...
    { MAKEUP DEPT: Yoda required. [sic] }
    ...
    CONSTRUCTION: Camera rostrum for 'A' & 'Y' Wings.
    Black velvet to be hung.
    "

    I assume that Stage 9 is large enough to accommodate both of these very small sets? Cockpit POVs must require blue screen whereas force ghosts must require black velvet. It's also possible the Cockpit POV had to be squeezed in only if the Alec Guinness appearance gave it enough time. They could also have simply hung black velvet over blue screen and not moved the cockpit set into position until Guinness was done.
     
  21. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I have identified the actor for Gray Leader / Red Two, the actor for "There's too many of them", and the actor for "I'm Hit".

    I. Start from the position of mystery. On the following page Lieutenant Telsij "There's too many of them!" Gray Two is played by an unknown actor. So is Gray Three "I'm Hit!" Ekelarc Yong. For some reason the parties who devise these names felt Ekelarc Yong was Asian, as Lieutenant Telsij clearly is.
    http://www.aveleyman.com/FilmCredit.aspx?FilmID=15886
    Now consider a blogger of Asian extraction who wants to know more about the clearly Asian Y-Wing pilot.
    https://twitter.com/steveharuch
    ( http://steveharuch.tumblr.com/ )
    Thus occurs an article that becomes widely referenced, linked to, shared, etc.
    "Diversity In Space: Tracking The First Asian Pilot In The Star Wars Movies"
    December 29, 201410:33 AM ET Steve Haruch
    http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...the-first-asian-pilot-in-the-star-wars-movies
    In it, Steve renders an observation that
    Steve reports that he consulted Leland Chee of Lucasfilm and received contextual information but not a solution. Leland Chee contacted J.W. Rinzler, author of The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi.
    So now there are three names to conduct searches on.

    II. Eiji Kusuhara is so successful in his career that there is no need to make arguments. Look him up on google images. Compare his face in the early 1980's to the face of "There's too many of them" and simply see. Don't worry about comparing Eiji Kusuhara to "I'm hit." One can also look at a sepia-toned production image of the Alliance briefing from a high angle looking down onto the area where the Y,A,X-Wing pilots are sitting. See if you cannot immediately pick out the actor Eiji Kusuhara, dressed in a gray Y-Wing flight suit, with a helmet with slanted bars. Be careful with the direction of the slant, considering the direction of the helmet.
    [​IMG]
    This image is available from:
    RotJ Y-Wing image thread- canon references
    http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46257&sid=89fffacd5d4491b650d5f26536824e79

    III. Erroll Shaker does not produce any credible hits in any exhaustive search. Feel free to try your hand at pinning an Erroll Shaker to ROTJ. I could not locate a single attestation. My sense is that he was so unknown that his performance did not get it done, or he didn't show up, or something happened at the last minute that prevented participation.

    IV. Timothy Sinclair.......
    Enough research on this topic inevitably brings up resources that conflate TATMOT and IH or that assume both are Asian. E.g. to suffice:

    However, enough research on this topic and repeat viewings causes some clues to congeal. Someone else has smelled a rat in this respect. Specifically, that the faces of Gray Leader / Red Two and "I'm hit!" are either not sufficiently dissimilar, or, are very suspiciously not dissimilar. I cannot take the credit for this suspicion.
    http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/l...space-battle-in-return-of-the-jedi.454313564/
    So the question is: Are Gray Leader / Red Two, and "I'm hit" played by the same actor who is in the same Y-Wing set but in two different helmets? We already know from the editing that the custodians of continuity did not trifle to ensure that Gray Leader had a helmet and a face that was different from Red Two's helmet and face. So, should it come as a surprise to see that Gray Leader, Red Two, and I'm Hit are all played by the same actor?
    Now look at Timothy Sinclair's modest credits:
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2157725/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t12
    So far so good. This credit occurs in the correct time period.
    As for the show:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0497215/?ref_=nm_knf_t1
    Ok, so the character of Hubert was in 2 episodes of a show that ran one season in 1983, after ROTJ. The show was not a great success that would echo down the ages, but it is remembered. And, he's in episode one, is he. So, a brief youtube later and
    ‪BBC==2== Junction 15th October 1983‬

    Before you play it, however, grab your favorite mp4 of ROTJ in several iterations of a player and cue up Gray Leader from the side, Red Two from the side (if you need it), and "I'm hit!". Now play the BBC video. Be mindful of vocal range, shape and size of brow, size and shape of nose, nostril, color, where and how the hair lays; eye color.
    Hubert / Timothy Sinclair / Gray Leader / Red Two / "I'm hit!" appears at 1:42 / 2:16.

    V. I am suspicious, and not quite certain, that it is the very same Hubert / Timothy Sinclair / Gray Leader / Red Two / "I'm hit!" >actor< that appears in this continuity photograph. The difference that separates this photograph of a character from the character of Gray Leader / Red Two is the helmet. This helmet is the helmet worn by "There's too many of them" Eiji Kusuhara, and has a red chin decal to the right side of the pilot's face. Gray Leader has a red chin decal in the center and symmetric stripes over the forehead. While viewing the space battle, notice that the image of "There's too many of them" Eiji Kusuhara is flipped with respect to Gray Leader and "I'm hit!", and, this image. So, the final editors achieved a degree of differentiation out of a limited supply of costume, set and actor (2) by resourcefulness.

    [​IMG]
    This image is available from:
    RotJ Y-Wing image thread- canon references
    http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46257&sid=89fffacd5d4491b650d5f26536824e79
     
    Lt. Hija likes this.
  22. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Hernalt

    Fascinating observations. So according to the call sheet Mr. Rinzler had available, there were only three actors scheduled for shooting the Y-wing cockpit scenes, with the probability that Mr. Sinclair also had to stand in for Mr. Shaker (who might be seen in the polaroid?) and played more than just one pilot (i.e. Gray Leader and "I'm hit" but with different helmet).

    In contrast we know most of the four A-Wing pilots
    1. Hilton McRae ("Green Leader")
    2. Poppy Hands (Red Three / "Sila Kott")
    3. Michael Drew ("Copy Gold Leader" / "Jake Farrell")
    4. Unknown ("Mom A-Wing")
    "Chapter Five" of the space battle is almost ready (with an interesting revelation, I'm confident most are unaware of), but I just ordered myself a copy of the Star Wars Storyboards by Rinzler to see if there are any storyboards in there from the famous lost scene of the B-Wing attack on the jamming Star Destroyer. Stay tuned...
     
  23. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    [​IMG]

    Back to our mysterious side-topic for a moment (or warm-up excercise for the next chapter) that's really starting to give me headaches: Sullustan B-Wing pilots.

    As Hernalt already stated there is a high probability that Nien Nunb is actually standing next to Wedge during the Rebel briefing, apparently because he just arrived and is still wearing his B-Wing flight suit.

    Interestingly, in the birds-eye-view publicitly still we can see him just having emerged from the stairway below and about to shake hands with other pilots. I also came across a "family shot" where we see all our heroes standing at the briefing room table - with the Sullustan in red B-Wing flight suit to the left and in such a pose that suggests he belongs to this group, i.e. has to be Nien Nunb.

    And here is a link that concurs but for other reasons: http://www.jeditemplearchives.com/content/modules.php?name=JReviews&rop=showcontent&id=148

    "And at the Endor celebration, the blue vested Nien Nunb is no where to be found. (A little unlikely for someone who had a significant role in blowing up the second Death Star to not show up celebrate with the rest of the Rebel Alliance, no?) Because of this, we have no issue referring to this figure as Nien Nunb (B-wing Pilot)." (A Sullustan in a red B-Wing flight suit does show up during the celebration).

    The problem: Nien Nunb kept his red flightsuit while copiloting the Falcon, but IMHO that would have prohibited any other Sullustan to show up in a another cockpit with a red flight suit because it would have unnecessarily confused audiences ("Isn't that the same guy, we just saw...").

    This would adequately explain the arrival of the mysterious Ten Numb in an all white flight suit and a breathing mouthpiece (that interestingly explains what the mouthpiece of medical droid 2-1B could be good for, i.e. his patients!).

    Yet, in the B-Wing pilot test footage featuring a Sullustan and a Mon Calamari (post # 1 in this thread) they wear a green A-Wing flight suit (apparently as a distinction to Nien Nunb and his red flight suit).
     
  24. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
  25. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    I'm pretty sure LucasArts had access to this B-roll footage in the 1990s (or at least photographs like this one)... because exactly this sort of over-the-shoulder view was used to depict the player character in the first Rebel Assault computer game (1993).