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Discussion The Marvel Cinematic Universe’s impact on new Star Wars films

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Ender_and_Bean, May 14, 2018.

  1. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Um... no. I'm not talking about IX. I'm talking about TLJ. Just as the Emperor was later defeated, the FO can be defeated. You can call the end of TLJ a snow cone for all I care. Factually, Kylo still won in it.
     
  2. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Four words: Time jump. Broom boy.

    There will be more than 20 Resistance fighters in IX. That's precisely what the end of TLJ was forecasting. The initial signal sent by Leia's team didn't result in any responses. But Luke's sacrifice will inspire a movement.

    Is this how I would have structured the ST? Not at all. But I think all signs are pointing towards a more sizable Resistance in the last film.
     
  3. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    So, Solo was setup in some ways like a comic book origin story but one in which he obviously has no special powers beyond being a charming, likable and skilled pilot.

    Is that going to be the challenge with these human origin stories? Marvel sets its “normal” humans around its extradorinary superheroes whereas beyond Jedi or Sith... Star Wars heroes have mostly been likeable humans which lack powers.

    Telling the origin of someone like Solo probably needs to feel closer to the approach on something like Indiana Jones, or a Die hard movie, or a Bond movie, or Mission Impossible, from the perspective of setting up the main human with some learned skill and a lot of charm. It puts a lot of effort on crafting the right adventure, quest or action plotting than what may be required in the average Marvel movie which can rely a little more on simply moving from normalcy to superhero experiences and have that massive shift in life be a part of the main draw. Writing a strong villain at Bond quality or better too seems like a must if these people are going to be mostly human. Similar to a lot of team up or spy movies that have been successful you almost need cool tech and a good team up cast with chemistry and charm to offset for what you lack on the super hero powers front.

    To me, it sounds like Solo mixed sort of hustle movie tropes (Rounders/The color of Money/Mamet movies) with some western train heist fun and some crime film tropes. That sounds like a decent mix of genres to deliver something interesting even without powers and indeed at 71% so far Solo sits around JJ’s MI3 and above 2 of the 4 new Daniel Craig Bond films, indicating that it may have offered enough in those areas. Good but not great. Good, not bad. Given when there were at in production earlier I’m sure “good” and having that tomato by the number and staying above 70% probably has them breathing some sigh of relief.

    Put simply, Lucasfilm won’t be able to rely on the origin template to the extent Marvel can because so many characters are human and will lack that turning point where they move from normalcy to something extraordinary the way Marvel superheroes so often do.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  4. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Color me surprised (not really) that this thread turned into another opportunity for the Greivance Committee to just complain about the movie.
     
    Ricardo Funes and dogprivilege like this.
  5. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    My recommendation to LFL, for what it's worth (not much):

    Take lessons from the MCU about interconnectivity (but not too far) and that's it.

    Though I think Solo clearly demonstrates that this is already the plan...
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    Shaak Ti and Ricardo Funes like this.
  6. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    My primary motivation for continuing to assert my point of view stems from the constant need of others, here, at Disney and elsewhere, to assert nonsense such as:
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously didn't understand what Rian Johnson was attempting accomplish.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously don't understand Star Wars.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously never liked Star Wars in the first place.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously don't want Star Wars to grow/evolve.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously want Star Wars to be "small". You're small. Only, like, ten fat people in basements agree with you. Wait; are you a fat person in a basement?
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you are obviously never happy with anything, ever. What do you hate happiness?
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously just want fan-service. Fans should never be serviced ever, duh.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously don't understand that the prequels were horrible. However, when its convenient for proving TLJ is great, every detail of the PT, good or bad, can be used in its defense.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you are obviously a closed minded person. I'm better than you; I'm open to everything... except your point of view.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you are obviously a toxic person. Therefore, I'm glad you didn't like it. I hope you don't like Episode IX.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you obviously just like to complain. Complainers are objectively bad people, regardless of the nature or merit of the complaint in question.
    • If you don't like The Last Jedi, you are obviously a bad person. Therefore, you didn't deserve a new Star Wars movie to like.
    • Star Wars should be for everyone, except those who dont like TLJ. Those people just need to go away.
    • Only racist misogynists didn't like TLJ. Therefore, if you didn't like TLJ, you are a racist misogynist.
    • TLJ's Rotten Tomatoes critics score reflects objective truth. The critics are always correct, duh. 'Cuz, you know, professionals and stuff.
    • TLJ's Rotten Tomatoes audience score was obviously the result of Russian hacker bots. Are you a Russian hacker bot?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  7. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I see little-to-none of those views expressed here. I think you're projecting and/or attributing things you read on other social media to this forum.
     
  8. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    I respect your opinion, though I do not share it. Thank you for your feedback. However, this response exemplifies the attitude I refer to above.

    Obviously something is wrong with me. I'm sure you didn't mean anything personal by that, though.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  9. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I wasn't suggesting there is anything wrong with you. I was suggesting that there was something wrong, factually, with your post. And that the thing wrong with it is that I don't believe your description of views expressed on this forum is very accurate. At least, not as a description of common viewpoints. That's all. Nothing personal meant or implied.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  10. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Please forgive me. The words "I think you're projecting" read an awful lot like you are trying to imply that I unconsciously harbor all these beliefs towards others, but have built up some sort a self loathing denial defense mechanism. If that is not what you are saying, I apologize.

    I still disagree, however. I specifically reference "here, at Disney and elsewhere" to convey the idea that I am not singling out boards.theforce.net. Also, while writing that response, I referenced several previous conversations on this forum to make sure I hit an accurate tone.
     
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I would like to see a series of movies set in an era that start off following singular characters like the Marvel movies.
    Iron Man, Captain America, the Hulk, etc.
    Get a group of characters established and then do a crossover movie or even trilogy like the Avengers, then follow up adventures to the still alive characters and add more characters to the movies.
    So maybe something like this.
    During the Old Republic we get movies about the Jedi, Republic Army, the Mandalorians, Smugglers, Sith, etc.
    The Avengers type movie could be the Sith attacking the Jedi and Republic or some other threat attacking the galaxy, while the Sith prepare their own Conquest for the next main Crossover.
    The next couple movies after the first crossover event would deal with the fall out of the first war.

    Then for the final crossover, something even worse would force the Jedi and Sith to work together temporarily until the threat is over and everything returns to normal.

    Or do a generational Saga during the New Sith Wars.
     
    Shaak Ti likes this.
  12. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    OK, that's fine (though I said "projecting and/or attributing things you read on other social media to this forum," meaning I didn't assume projection was the problem). Not sure your list helps improve the conversation, but I understand the frustration (not least as I'm often wary of expressing my critiques of TLJ for fear of being labeled part of the repulsive MRA/ alt-right goon squad).

    Though I still believe that at least here at theforce.net, the attitudes you highlight are not common. Not nonexistent, of course, but not common.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  13. Darth Stratocaster

    Darth Stratocaster Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    {slow-clapping}
     
  14. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    There's a place for that, for sure. It's not every ******* thread. Good DAY sir!
     
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  15. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Case in point.
     
    PendragonM likes this.
  16. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Oh so clever! [face_hypnotized]
     
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  17. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Are people who didn't like TLJ some kinda marginalized group on the internet now? As if I can't give a list of bad faith arguments from the other side of the aisle, or from any side of any argument ever. I mean really, just by posting such a meandering list that anyone could see doesn't even reflect the sentiments of this particular forum is a pretty baseless argument already.

    This thread is an interesting topic and it immediately turned into the same people trying to re-litigate the exact same points about TLJ that have already been discussed at length in other threads and are continuing to be so. And this thread isn't even directly about the "quality" of TLJ so much as it is a critical discussion about the franchise itself.
     
    rorow1, Ricardo Funes and Bor Mullet like this.
  18. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Straw men or a parody?
     
    Ricardo Funes and Bor Mullet like this.
  19. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Eh, it is based enough in truth that the entire staff agreed to reform the whole forums as an April Fool's Day gag in response to such assertions.
     
    Bor Mullet and -LordSkywalker- like this.
  20. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    So, the MCU concept of establishing standalone origin stories to show us more or how the characters came to be and better understand what drives them so that they can then be brought together in larger more epic adventures as units clearly works at the box office.

    Curious what you all would think about a play on this same concept but instead of focusing the films only on the standalone heroes... what about a standalone film on a villain so that we came to understand them and their motivation a little more?

    Very rarely is that tried in Hollywood and often when it is it’s more of an anti-hero setup initially who’s been wronged or been corrupted and who is out for revenge who then goes to far and becomes a villain.

    Could a standalone like that work? Say... a Thrawn or Kylo Ren standalone film for example?

    ETA: A part of me thinks it’s best for these villain origins to come through novels first (Thrawn for example) to ensure it all works and is intriguing and then adapting that to the screen but Lucasfilm seems to see an edge that they have over other properties right now as being that many of their reveals or surprises occur on film first. Whereas with Marvel anyone who knew the comics knew what Thanos was like and who he’d be after and how powerful he was long before the films.

    Allowing the novelists or comic book writers work through it all first can lead to a better market-tested character or story that can then be polished and tightened for the screen but it also takes away some of the surprise. I’m torn on what’s best as a result.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  21. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    What has the ST been but a Kylo Ren "origin story" - hamfisted as it is? He already dominates the whole thing. I know we heard some stuff from JJ about a "Knights of Ren" film but that seems to have disappeared since the knights weren't even mentioned in TLJ.

    I think the idea of standalone films tying to a future would work - it's sort of what they're trying to do with Solo - but I don't know that LFL has the discipline of Marvel, or the existing characters, since they ditched the EU, which had a fleet of characters to work with.

    The main problem is that they keep strip mining the era that already exists - PT to ST. Why not try something different? I would think that the success of the games would demonstrate that there are fans for eras that aren't tied to the movies.
     
    Luke02 likes this.
  22. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    I think they're headed in that direction with the eventual trilogies of Rian Johnson and the Game of Thrones guys.

    But for now with the cartoons, Live action tv show, and the current anthologies, they're playing close to the chest and depending on name brands. (I.E. Han Solo, Obi Wan, Deathstar with Rogue One).
     
    PendragonM likes this.
  23. Luke02

    Luke02 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2002
    @PendragonM

    I think they solely focus on just that and made the sequel trilogy all about the "Last Skywalker", it would been a much better trilogy. The villain is always much more interesting then the heroes. The ST is playing out as a good example since I think we can all agree that Kylo is by far the most popular new character.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    Cave of Erised likes this.
  24. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    I don't agree at all - with the idea that the villains are more interesting or that he's the most popular character. I think LFL believes he is. I don't see his merchandise moving, and for the most part, I find his popularity to be mainly among a loud subset of fans who coo over him and want his woobification and redemption. Fans who are rapidly making the rest of fandom angry and disgusted.

    Many new fans love Rey, Finn and Poe and then watched them shunted to the side or warped for Kylo - and may not be back for Ep 9. There are also plenty of old fans who detest Kylo Ren and want him dead for what he's done to Luke, Han and Leia - and how the whole ST has been warped around his "conflicted" self to further destroy Luke, Han and Leia. Or that may just be me - but I don't think so.

    So I don't think he's that popular. I think LFL wants everyone to think he's Vader 2.0 but I don't even think he's Dooku or Maul levels of popularity.
     
  25. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Ironic, isn't it? The MCU, prior to Phase 3, had a problem of creating memorable villains to counteract the iconic heroes. People remember the Avengers, but rarely do you hear them remembering someone like The Mandarin, Alexander Pierce, Malekith the Accursed or any villain other than Loki.

    Yet people still continue watching The Avengers despite their relatively lackluster villains. Why is that? Because the heroes are the main selling point of the series. You can survive mediocre villains if you have awesome and interesting heroes. But you can't hope to survive for long if your heroes aren't well established and you place your bets on the baddies.