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The Mary Sue thread - Classic

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by JediGaladriel, Jul 31, 2001.

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  1. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 3, 1999
    I'm always gripped by a fear that my original characters are Mary Sues. Some fit a lot of the criteria, but don't seem to draw any fire for it. Others... well, let's say I'm up for discussing how to un-marysue people.

    So -- these are the ones I'm worried about.

    Dritali Neral: A young abused girl who was rescued by Vader as a child (in Uprising), who later becomes Luke's padawan in The Penitent. Mary Sue characteristics: Strong in the Force, involved with the Skywalker family, a great deal of long, jet black hair, melodramatic past, tendency to blurt out important lines. Mitigating against: She's taken care of by Skywalkers, but they don't fawn over her, and when she tries to rescue one, she ends up getting him in worse trouble. She's not the strongest Force-user in history; she's just competent. Doesn't have any particularly special talents, other than Force ability.

    Zemai Laryhi: From the Sith Order stories. An aloof padawan 1000 years before TPM who ends up falling in love with a Tatooine boy, and getting kicked out of the order because she's preggers. She ends up the Sith apprentice because of convoluted reasoning about protecting her child. Mary Sue characteristics: Very strong in the Force, possibly -- probably -- related to Skywalkers, mirrors Anakin's story, may or may not have made the "Son of the Suns" prediction (in Carrier of the Dead). Mitigating factors: Not particularly pretty, prone to making stupid decisions based on what she considers good logic, no special talents, not even particularly good with a lightsaber.

    Shmi Skywalker II: (Outer Rim stories). The third of four Skywalker children in an alternate universe where Anakin didn't turn and the family all lives together on Tatooine. Mary Sue-isms: Related to the Skywalkers and adored in the family, Luke's padawan, prone to poetic visions of the other universe. Mitigating: Not a central character, has short hair, and is not romantically involved with anyone.

    Upping for nostalgia and some discussion. This one is classic.
     
  2. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    JG, perhaps you should list the criteria for Mary-Sueism for the uninitiated. :)
     
  3. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 3, 1999
    Oops... I meant to link to that Mary Sue checklist, but I couldn't find it and proceeded to forget!

    Anyway, in the article Liz mentions in the "Invaluable Resources" thread, there's this article on Mary Sue through the ages.

    Ah, wait... here's the checklist (linked from the lexicon).

    Basically, a Mary Sue is a near-perfect character who functions as a stand-in for the author and does wish-fulfillment sorts of things. (My first SW character, made when I was a young teen many years ago, was a definite Mary Sue -- Ciji Skywalker was Luke's daughter, incredibly strong in the Force (but didn't want to be trained), great singing voice, great hair, facing Anakin's moral test, which she fails, but ultimately gets rescued by saving Luke from his own cold parenting style by being dramatically stabbed by Palpatine's son... )
     
  4. JazzyJedi

    JazzyJedi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
    I have to say that the whole fear of "Mary Sue" or "Marty Stu" is way overrated in fan fic. What one has to watch is how well the original character is written. Professional authors do this wish fulfillment thing all the time. It's also called "writing what you know." The only reason fanfic authors get blasted for it is that they are playing in someone else's sandbox.

    As two examples of pro authors who do such a thing, allow me to cite Stephen King and Andrew Greeley. These authors insert bits themselves and their fantasies into their various characters all the time. In their bios they freely admit to this practice.


    JG, you have nothing to worry about. It's the authors who write characters that are disgustingly unrealistic or ridiculous. And when you find yourself pondering over the possible Mary Sue characteristics of your original characters, just remember that you're inspired by one of the biggest Marty Stus in history, since that, after all, is the way Luke Skywalker started out. :)

    Cheers!
     
  5. Kitt327

    Kitt327 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2000
    I love Mary Sues. Bring her on!!!

    In my opinion, all characters are Mary Sues. As the author, you put words into their mouth, and you decide what they do, so they can't help but be projections of you.

    The character described as a 'Mary Sue' is often the creation of young teenage girls, who often have low self-esteem and feel inadequate. That's why Mary Sue is so beautfiful, talented and everyone loves her.

    As we grow older, we gain more self-confidence, and so out come so called 'well-developed' characters, who are in fact just Mary Sue grown up.

    To me, this is a natural process for a young author, and one which should be encouraged, not suppressed. I don't hate Mary Sue and she doesn't annoy me. I don't think being too perfect is a reason to hate a character, unless you feel inadequate yourself.

    As pointed out, Luke Skywalker is a 'Marty Stu'. J.K. Rowling has said Hermione is actually her, but smarter :)

     
  6. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 3, 1999
    Thanks. And a good point.

    (Don't mind me. I'm having a bad writer day at the same time I'm having a bad librarian day. Not fun.)

    But let's talk about Mary Sues, wish fulfillment, and what it is that makes people dislike them so (except, of course, for their writers).

    I think people like to write Mary Sues just for the chance to show off in front of the fictional people they like, or play dramatic scenes. I know when I was writing Ciji, part of the fun was just in going over the top -- I could do a little Star Wars soap opera, fly the Falcon, and just get her in deeper and sillier trouble all the time. If it had gone on much longer, I'm sure she would have been possessed or abducted by aliens... er, well, Earthlings... or something. Then playing at it with the other drama club geeks, of course it turned into a let's-see-who-can-make-the-mascara-run scenario, which is always fun.

    But people dislike the Mary Sue story -- imho -- because it so often diminishes the canon characters. By its nature, it tends to make them dependent in a way that they never would be in their own element. Why should Luke Skywalker suddenly not be able to fight his own battles? Why would Leia find herself utterly at the whim of some villain, with no way out other than the help of a Gary Stu? (Even in ANH, once the door was open, she took charge of her rescue.)

    Sometimes, it's second-hand. I have to be careful with my Vader stories to make sure that any of the people in a position to redeem him prior to RotJ make big mistakes themselves, and aren't really trying, because to have everyone and his/her sister trying to redeem Vader and semi-succeeding diminishes the importance of Luke's conscious choice in RotJ. I stopped watching Xena when they started doing this back story business where someone or other tried to redeem warlord Xena every other minute... it made her seem really thick-headed, and made her actual redemption seem inconsequential. Better to show the warlord (or the Sith lord) as being capable of redemption in him/herself, but no one recognizing it until the hero does.

    (I will say, if Luke Uncle George's Gary Stu, I like Uncle George. :) I'd peg Han more as the Gary Stu-type character, and I've always liked Luke better.)
     
  7. Vee

    Vee Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2000
    I agree to disagree here; I think that excessive Mary-Sue-ism is the sign of an underdeveloped writer. "Writing what you know" is a totally different -- and highly more dangerous ;) -- animal than this.

    We as a fan community have gotten to the point where no character can have a mythical element without the fear of MS-ism (JG, you have nothing to worry about, I would tell you if I thought you did, and you've read my picky betas before) but the proper corrective measure is not complete acceptance of shoddy craftsmanship. The only way to remedy this solution is to read well-drawn-out characterization.

    I don't mean to sound like a brat, but I don't think listing authors/screenwriters is fair defense of the practice. "Oh, so-and-so's done it, so that makes it okay." Fan fiction writers are fleshing out the stories in ways the originators could never have time to do, and there is no justification for shifting the whole thing to be around yourself. Fan fiction is never your story (that's why I have such a hell of a time writing it -- I feel so responsible to the characters that it's like drawing blood). Creators who maybe put a touch too much of their recognizable selves do have justification, so long as it actually works. GL is working from the Hero's Journey to create a modern myth. As for J.K. Rowling ... I'll keep my mouth shut or Sade might hit me. ;)
     
  8. Kitt327

    Kitt327 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2000
    'writing what you know' is another interesting topic for discussion. I believe in 'writing what you can realistically imagine'. If author's only wrote what they knew, there wouldn't be much to write about :D

    In some cases, the Mary Sue wish-fulfillment character is undeveloped, and written by underdeveloped writers. However, I think that is a natural stage.

    Sometimes shallow characters can be a lot of fun. Take Willy Wonka in Charlie and the Chocolate factory. He is so 2-dimensional that any facts about his personal life are actually written for laughs. The other characters are shocked when he admits to eating normal food for breakfast instead of chocolate.

    WRT fanfiction, I do agree that it's annoying when the main characters get butchered in the process. Just look at some of the EU writing :D Something that particularly annoys me are the scenes between Xizor and Leia in SOTE.

     
  9. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 3, 1999
    Something that particularly annoys me are the scenes between Xizor and Leia in SOTE.

    Amen. I was going to mention that. Xixor is the ultimate Gary Stu, imho.
     
  10. Sreya

    Sreya Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Part of the difficulty is that there really is no way of definitely pointng out "Mary Sue"... sometimes an author can start with a Mary Sue and still turn out a wonderful story, othertimes a character will be accused of being Mary Sue in disguise when it's really just a badly written character.

    However, here's one check that I try to use for myself sometimes. Are you trying to write a story where you need the character, or do you just want to show off the character and the story aids in that purpose? Typically I've found that if you come up with a story first and then create characters to carry that story, Mary Sue never even pokes her nose in.

    But then, you also can't throw away the really great character you think of when watching someone on the bus, because they can be fun to play with, too. Like I said, there's no real guarantee, you just have to watch out for your own pitfalls.

    Sreya
     
  11. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 7, 2002
    Upping, this is a historically good read. :) Some oldbies but goodbies in here. :)
     
  12. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 7, 2000
    Excellent thread to up Roo.

    I think alot can depend on ones view as well. It seems often suthor's feel their characters are MS's only becuase of fitting a couple of the criteria. Heck, having special powers and such go with the territory when writing about Jedi.
     
  13. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2002
    A blast from the past huh? ;) This is one of the nicer MS threads sitting in the FFRF graveyard :)

    Mary Sues aren't necessarily even a sign of a poor writer, but more so of wish fulfillment, of the writer trying to make the universe and the characters behave how they would have wanted them, not as the characters truly should. When a writer does that, even a technically good writer, the characters stop being who they should be and become actors in a fantasy realized for the writer. Even wonderfully spun yarns, when carefully scrutinized can reveal tremendous flaws in characterization.
     
  14. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 7, 2000

    Actually, you are quite right. My own is the perfect example of it. Took my user name and made a female Jedi healer with the purpose of playing with Qui-Gon in the GFFA.

    Surprising, I know!! :D :D Now what's weird, or perhaps not so, is that I do have a bit of trouble using her because without Qui-Gon being involved, she almost ceases to exist in my mind. I've been blessed to play with a group that use her far better then I do at times.

    Makes me then wonder if the intent in the creation of an OC is what matters. Though at the time of creating her I didn't know what a Mary Sue was, I suppose I clearly created a MS. Though I don't know if knowing about MS's would have stopped me. [face_blush] :D
     
  15. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

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    Oct 10, 2002
    My screenname T'Keira was a character created in my mind to interact with Obi-Wan (and you all thought I was into Jag :p ). By the time I really understood writing and storytelling, I shied away from giving her life in an actual story. (Although she does have a wee bit part as a flashback so I could establish a reason to pass part of her name on to one of my OCs.) I'd only write her if I could keep Obi-Wan true to his character and at the same time make her a believable creation within the GFFA.

    After all this is supposed to be fan fiction and we should remember as fans that George created a cool place. If we distort the GFFA too much we're writing fiction where we borrow his names and put them on our own creations. If you're a fan then Anakin has to be Anakin no matter what the situation thrust upon him, Padme is Padme, and so on down the line.
     
  16. Miana Kenobi

    Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 5, 2000
    WOW memories.

    *Joins the "my screenname was a MS" group.* Miana Kenobi was a perfect example of an OC: Obi-Wan's mysterious granddaughter that saves the day. I created her when I was 12 and, looking back, it was the funniest thing I've ever written (I even FOUND the storyline I wrote recently. WOW).

    I'll admit; it's hard not to write Mary Sue. Like TK_L said, it's basically yor wish. Your perfect character. Almost every story has one. It's inevitable. ;)
     
  17. Jade_Max

    Jade_Max Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    I know I've written Mary Sue Characters, but I try not to. I try to give my characters depth and purpose, even if they're force sensitive or not... though most of my OCs are children now-a days...

    I think this thread has a lot of good points, I'd quote them, but I'd be repeating the whole thread *chuckle*

    I like the idea that OCs are going to be Mary-Sueish regardless of how talented the writer, simply because we all write what we know. If we know hardship, that OC is going to be one screwed up chica.

    etc etc...

    Though, I think it's up to the readers if the character is Mary/Gary-stuish or not. A good Oc, perfect or not, draws people in to liking them as a character, and people can relate with him/her. So I don't think it's a matter of perfection, I think it's a matter of relation. You OC is too perfect when no one can relate with them because they're always saving the day.

    My first OC was like that - Jade_Max, the 16 year old Jedi Knight who was more powerful than Luke Skywalker for Role Playing. I'll never do that again lol!
     
  18. PonyTricks

    PonyTricks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2003
    *stomps indignantly into thread* [face_frustrated]

    *glares* :mad:

    *leaves* [face_shame_on_you]


    Mary Sue
     
  19. AlisonC

    AlisonC Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2005
    I have two characters that I feared were on the borderline of Mary Sueism. One of them seems to have passed, and the other's still hanging in the balance and I seriously hope she doesn't go the wrong way. My problem isn't so much that I write self-inserts, but just that my characters tend to rack up points on things that are actually necessary for purposes of plot and either I have to undo the plot or somehow try to make a borderline Sue not a Sue.

    Some characters are just simply not Mary Sues and some really are, but the tricky ones are the borderlines - they can go either way, depending on the story, the writer, and the reader's tastes. Most people can guess that Luke Skywalker's new lover with 4' blonde hair and shimmering blue eyes that sparkle green when she has angst, which is every page, is a Mary Sue. But what if it's a Jedi Knight whose love is unrequited, and she's not overpowered? What if he's Shmi Skywalker's long-lost nephew, but totally normal in every other respect? Are those Sues/Stus? I think then it depends.
     
  20. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    I agree, TKL. It's really tempting to make a story an escapist story by having everything fall into place, and a lot of times, creating a "super" character aids in doing that. There's an assumption in fanfic that original characters (especially original female characters) must be either author self-insertion or a Mary Sue. But OCs are useful, and when written well, I think they can only enhance a story.

    For my part, the few OCs I have created were in response to particular plot needs. I'd be a poor author if all I could write is myself. Each minor original character was created to fill a certain purpose, as a sort of means to an end.

    The only exception to that is in my fic, A Higher Purpose, where the girl I created for Jacen is not a minor background character but a major player in the story. I had to be very careful in keeping her in her place - she can't be a hero because there already are heros, and she can't be a villian because those spots are taken as well. Yet I don't think she's a Mary Sue - in fact, she's been given several faults, she's not very likeable, and Jacen's own family doesn't trust her. She was created to be a means to an end - she exists only to further develop Jacen and Tenel Ka's characters.

    But then again, we're all being logical about this here. Sometimes, it is tempting to write an escapist story, and this is fanfic, after all. Therefore, I say we should all make Mary Sue socks, and write the most Mary Sueish story possible where all our secret fantasies come true. And then we can come back here and laugh at ourselves. (I have always wanted to fly off with Han Solo). And since it's my secret sock, no one will ever know...O:)

     
  21. oqidaun

    oqidaun Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I just stumbled across this A Historical Perspective on Mary Sue and thought it might make an interesting contribution to the thread (if anything a good opportunity to resurrect a great discussion).

    The article is a bit Trek slanted, but it is an interesting survey of the cultural phenomenon of Mary Sue.

    Either way, it's a good Friday morning read.

    Thoughts?
     
  22. AlisonC

    AlisonC Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Hmm. I really dislike the idea that all original characters are Mary Sues or Gary Stus. (Luckily, that seems not to be a popular perspective anymore.) I really don't see how it's possible to write long stories without at least minor-character OCs, and one will note that most new canon introduces new characters; the only real difference between them and fanfic OCs is that one group is canon and the other isn't. There's the quality issue, but that varies wildly in fanfic from really bad all the way up to professional, and ditto new canon characters, with a higher minimum standard.

    Star Wars is a good fandom for OCs since there is so much canon material about the universe itself that one can keep the universe intact and write convincing stories about new characters. It's also a bit hazardous, since there probably ARE thousands of minor royal families and Force-sensitives in the galaxy throughout the ages, and it's easy to make one's OC too powerful or otherwise too "special".

    Of course, some degree of specialness is necessary. Otherwise, BORING! So it's always a balancing act, and there are some tactics that can help de-Sue a character. Restricting the cast to OCs only removes the risk of making canon characters out of character. Or, if the cast is mixed, looking over the plot carefully and seeing if some of the heroic acts of the OC can be transferred to canon characters instead or made into a shared effort.

    Unfortunately, there's no easy way to tell whether borderline characters are Mary Sues are not. One that will annoy Reader #1 will strike Reader #2 as an excellent OC. But then again... that's true of canon characters as well.

    I'd say just avoid the major cliche traits if at all possible, making sure the character has realistic flaws ("Can't play the harp very well" is not a flaw that counts; being manipulative or poor-mannered is), and don't go overboard on describing that character. If your writing style is descriptive, fine, but the character shouldn't receive a disproportionate amount when compared to others.
     
  23. oqidaun

    oqidaun Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 20, 2005
    AlisonC, you make a lot of really great points that I've also be thinking about today.

    I tend to view the MarySue as such an obviously bad character that I typically don't have to wonder whether something is Mary Sue or not. I see it as an extreme. We all often risk building Sue-type characteristics into our characters(regardless if you write OC or CC), but that's just a universal poor characterization issue. The big ugly Mary Sue traits typically don't fly with any character. An uber perfect canon character tends to rub readers the wrong way just like a uber perfect OC--our stories, our fandom is not made up of perfect characters. In another life, I was one of those awful snarky elitist monsters that lurked in the shadows of fanfic.hell and harassed the denizens of MarySuedom (I've paid for my transgressions and feel mildly remorseful for my past actions). I didn't see a lot of gray area then and I still don't see much gray area. I think people try to read too much into the Mary Sue and add too many layers of complexity they end up in werid 45% Mary Sue vs. 72% Mary Sue arguments about character. The Mary Sue is just a poorly written exceedingly juvenile character. If we all think about what kinds of things we wrote or acted out when we were 10 or 11 years old--viola, we were all Mary Sues. I worry that too much obsession over "Is it or is it not a Mary Sue" cripples some writers and of course makes them paranoid about writing an OC.

    SW isn't a group of five Canon Characters trapped on a lifeboat lost at sea; therefore it's an excellent place for OCs to frolic and be happy (to an extent--can't have too much "happy"). I think a lot of the nitpicky Mary Sue finger pointing represents clashes between the CC and OC crowds. I am always amazed how many accolades a very poor characterization of a CC will garner, when a stellar OC gets completely overlooked or wins a few offhanded compliments that begin with the "I never read OC stories, but...". Sad, but true, some readers often wrongly assume the prescence of an OC is synonymous with the prescence of a Mary Sue and that hurts every one of us who write OC characters.

     
  24. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 7, 2002
    Luke Skywalker was once called Lucas' Gary Stu. I would give Vader/Anakin that title, too. But I still loves him. He's my precious. ;)
     
  25. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2002
    In all the articles on the subject that I have read in the past (and I've read a lot), I have never seen the canon characters of Star Wars mentioned as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I think Anakin is flawed enough to not be placed in that character. I mean who would actually self-insert into a character doomed to lose his arms and legs and bake on a lava bank. And Luke, his whining alone is enough to keep him out of that category :p No seriously, I just don't see it, because Luke makes enough mistakes to counter his feats of greatness. He's still making mistakes in the NJO and beyond.

    Often people just like to throw out that stigma when they don't like a character. The two things don't equate though. More often than not if Vader or Luke are Gary Stus, it happens in fanfiction. George loves his characters but he's riddled them with faults. And if nothing else, I've never seen him take it to heart when his characters are criticized. (A pretty good indicator the author isn't able to see the "perfection" of his/her character.) If fanfic writers stay true to George's intention for his canon characters I'd say they're pretty safe in avoiding the dreaded Mary Sue.
     
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