Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Jedi knight Pozzi, May 28, 2001.
I thought wire-fu and bullet-time looked pretty cool when The Matrix first came out, but now it just seems laughable. I don't think it's a style Lucas should aim for.
I guess you havent heard, Star Wars was the film that broke new gound in all catagories, INCLUDING special effects. GL can come up with his own effects. You Doubt!?
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SPOILER-FREE 'TILL EPISODE III
Just watched CTHD today on DVD, I still think that Lucas will be influenced by the sword fighting in that film.
Wait a minute, by watching the footage of Hayden you thought he should use the Matrix effects? Did you even watch TPM? Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were basically doing the exact same thing, do you think the Matrix effects would have fit in well there as well?
You know what's also a joke? MI:2. It had similiar effects, just not as exagerated. But that idiot director put them in every single action sequence, I couldn't believe it. I mean that literally, I could not believe it. Those effects will put the viewer outside of the scene and put up a red flag with bold letters on it written "THIS IS FAKE". With the Matrix it was cool, because it was new and different. Anything else is overkill, and putting that into a Star Wars film will ruin the trend and style of the films.
I'm mostly just wondering if he'll feel compelled to up the quality based on these three films, mostly with the fighting really.
I don't want bullet time just thrown in (or at all), but if the Jedi fight hand to hand for some reason, I'd like them to make it look as frantic as possible.
I think Jet Li sums the situation up nicely when he was talking about the fighting style in his new movie Kiss of the Dragon, during an interview with IGN.FilmForce. As any Li fan will know, his first lead role in a Hollywood film (Romeo must die) was this than satisfactory. In the film the fight scenes were aided with bad VFX, making Li's fighting style appear disjointed and unnatural. In fact it's no surprise really when you consider the producer of the film is the same guy who produces the Matrix films - Joel Silver. Anyway getting a bit sidetracked there, here is what Li had to say about the current trend in Hollywood for every other action film to have the actors flying around:
"(After talking about the Matrix)?Because the situation exactly 10 years ago in Hong Kong I made one movie called Once Upon a Time in China. Then I made another movie where I fly around and then suddenly you have a hundred movies where everybody is flying around - man, woman, little kids, everybody. So then we saw in the last year and this year Spy Kids, Charlie's Angels, everybody flying around [laughs]. Because for a sci-fi action movie and actor or actress is training for 3 months or 3 weeks or we use movie magic to make everybody become really know how to fight on screen. But this kind of fighting [as seen in KotD] you really need the training of a few years. Then you have the ability to control yourself and the fighters."
It's becoming very old, very quickly; even John Travolta's [sp] new film Swordfish has a time slice VFX sequence thrown in there for good measure. It's unlikely any of this will fit into SW, I seriously doubt Lucas will use any of these methods, combined with his vibrant imagination and all the talented people he has surrounding him, they are more than capable of coming up with something new, something that will distinguish them from the pack. Besides as I have said before in this thread, any dramatic, stylistic change in fight choreography will disrupt continuity. One last thing, I've gotta pick you up on what you said about MI2 Raz Zaphon, the director in question - John Woo - was using slow mo and elaborate action choreography in his movies long before the Wachowski brothers even thought of the Matrix. Check John Woo's back catalogue of films before he made the transfer to Hollywood, to see what I mean.
It's ironic really that it took two Hong Kong/Anime action freaks, who lifted just about every good idea from their library of films to popularise this style of action and filmmaking in the West, while their mentors (the true originators of this style of cinema) are left on the sidelines, wondering why they bothered to try and make and it in Hollywood. Sad really but there you go, anyway the bottom line is if you want to see some decent Kung-Fu, you shouldn't be looking for the next SW episode to provide it for you, just let people like Jet Li who has been practicing Wushu since he was a nipper entertain you.
I totally agree with Mandrell on this one it would look so stupid if all of the sudden in the middle of the saga GL throws in some bulletime or other inconsistent effect only to be not present by ANH, the starwars saga is to be viewed as one big story that is spread out through six instalments. GL sees himself as a storyteller it would be poor story telling to change your style completely only to have it change back for the last half. I also think that the lightsaber battles in TPM are a basis for wich it is possible to elaborate on the styles because of the quality it is to begin with. But to drasticly change the presentation such as Bullet time or to drasticaly change the style would be foolish.
I thought that the matrix could pull of Bullet time because of the story line, they could manipulate the computer code of the matrix wich is why you could understand them being able to stay in mid air as the camera moves around them. In other films though it could look incredibly fake as mentioned by others.
Yeah, but he may feel that he needs to improve the fight scenes, be it hand to hand or with lightsabres.
I think all the slo mo in the Matrix was irritating and gimmicky. SW is better than that.
The speeding up of the fight scenes is what I'm getting at.
you talking about speading up from TPM cause it would be hard to go faster than that but it would be cool.
I didn't even understand in crouching tiger how they could fly in the air, any body know why or is it just because their amazing? in wich case that would make the effects cool but story a load of crap.
Why do you people always have to compare StarWars to anything else? Star Wars movies are on a special level meesa thinks. Comparing SW and say the Matrix is blasphemy!
( okay, maybe not blasphemy, but still... )
CTHD; What is it that people like about this movie? Mediocre and simple storyline and totally unbelievable action sequences. It would have been better if they had left some of the more fantastic elements on the cutting room floor, the standing on trees and skipping over rooftops were the worst culprits.
"It would have been better if they had left some of the more fantastic elements on the cutting room floor, the standing on trees and skipping over rooftops were the worst culprits."
Yeah, that's almost as crazy as being able to move things wth your mind and choke people without touching them.
But seriously though, the lightsaber fight in TPM was much much different than the ones in the OT. Personally, I loved the duel at the end of TPM and expect to see more fights like it in Eps. II an III. But do you think the contradiction will be too much? Like going the from fast-paced martial arts style of the prequels to the slow paced and much more intellectual duel in ANH? People seeing the saga for the first time might be like "ugh what is this?"
On the other hand, Vader and Kenobi were old geezers by the time of Episode IV, and I guess it would have been silly to see them jumping around and fighting really quickly like in TPM. . . .hahaha could you imagine that? I guess it would seem out of place. . .
You're comparing Jedi in their prime to old men and barely trained padawans.
Having a young adult Anakin opens the door to a type of fighting/dueling we have never before seen in SW.
Still, I don't want to see Matrix and CA in SW.
But look for changes, mostly regarding faster, more complex saber fights.
I'de much rather watch a fight scene like duel of the fates than a fight scene like the matrix.
And guys, don't expect the "sabering" in Ep2 to be any faster than Ep1.
"Yeah, that's almost as crazy as being able to move things wth your mind and choke people without touching them. "
Well at least SW has an internal logic that explains why they can do those things. In CTHD is was written in a book or something. not convincing. And it really did look cheesy. I tried but I couldn't see those people bouncing around awkwardly on cables and not see it as anything but people bouncing around awkwardly on cables. Should SW emulate that? No.
An important thing to remember: Lucas started off as -- and still is to a large extent -- a documentary filmmaker. Watch his filming style. He does not go in for gimmicky moves. He shoots thing as if they just happened to have occured on camera. Even the all digital shots -- the Podrace, for instance -- were shot as if from a helicopter or "camera podracer" catching the whole show.
It's one of those subtle things that makes SW feel real. These amazing visuals are presented matter-of-factly, and aren't gawked at by intrusive camera work.
I think its part of the reason TPM lost the Academy award for visual effects. Matrix: Neo sticks his hand in liquid metal goo, and SHOWS IT OFF to the camera. TPM: A podracer crash, and the camera keeps tracking past it. Stupid Academy Voter: Well, the first one required an elaborate effect. For the second one, they just crashed a Podracer.
Anyway, really LOOK at the Sw films, and you'll find a refreshing lack of pull focuses, non-required crane shots, and (best of all) slow motion. THere are only two slo mo shots in all the movies, and they are done so for impact: Ben's death and the duel at the cave.
To suddenly throw in some bullettime garbage would be for Lucas to completely change his directorial style.
That's right. In the Matrix, every time there was a stunt or effect they literally stopped the movie and made sure the audience all saw how cool it was. The effects had no place in the story. Sure, they could manipulate time and space in the matrix but was there a reason for stopping time in mid jump-kick and spinning the camera view 360 degrees? Of course not.
In TPM the duel was straight foreward and fast. You had to pay attention to keep up with the action and if you didn't you lost out. That's the way it should be.
I can guarantee with no doubt in my mind that the style of EPII will be like that of the rest of SW. Lucas's influences are Kurosawa and older films, he's not a trend of the week film-maker.
As for the fight scenes, Nick Gillard is once again the coordinator and he spent too much time developing the jedi fighting style (how cool is that that he invented a new style of weapon fighting?) to go and change it to fit the flavor of the year.
The thing is CTHD is nothing new. In alot of those old chinese movies the main characters get all spiritual and can fly. It's eastern myth, That movie wasn't made for Western audiances it was made for Eastern viewers. Hence the reason why so much wen tover the heads of alot of viewers.
As far as the person who was going on about the ridiculus action scenes in MI2, those are a dime a dozen aswell and nothing new. Just take a look at those eastern cop movies like Hard Boiled or The Killer and the slew of all those Hong Kong movies their all like that. Where the characters do all these off the wall moves in their action sequences. Hehe, it's all John Woo knows how to do. The over abundance of slo-mo sucked though. If you look at the MI2 trailer the whole thing is in Slo-mo. I gaurantee you that you will never see "Bullet Time" in a SW film it would just clash with the rest of the Saga.
Supporting films that bashed, MI2 was from John Woo, that would explain the Hong Kong movie style. He made nearly half of them. I can imagine a CTHD style to an extent. By that I meant more of a graceful yet still intense style, not so much the flying. I was hoping for Padme to become more of a fighter like the Episode 1 comic book dream Anakin had, but that's unlikely. That would have been a CTHD thing though, tougher female roles.
The Matrix type effects are unlikely in Star Wars. There is no apparent reason for anyone to fly, and there are no actually bullets for any closeups. Other than that, there's not much which Star Wars could have even possibly borrowed.
One of the things that the Star Wars films have going for them, despite the recently erroding storyline quality, is that they are still, for the most part, presented in a classic narrative style, a la Kurosawa, John Ford, and David Lean. The scope of the Star Wars films doesn't warrant hyper-stylized filming like the aforementioned movies, and I think it would be very distracting if such measures were taken. Classic narrative will never go out of style when it comes to movies, and it allows for what really counts to sink in and stay with a viewer, and that's story. Now if Lucas et al can just do something about that, they might really have something.