The Matrix, the SW PT, and LotR: Which Trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. ferelwookie Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    "The first two films suck..."

    No, ANH and ESB are classics. The SEQUELS after that point just aren't on the same level IMO. TPM and AOTC wouldn't have even been made if not for ANH, "Star Wars" to us old farts.
  2. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, but unfortunately, ANH and ESB are not the first two films anymore.
  3. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    Bakshi-Jackson : i'm not going to bother making a list 'cause you're just going to say "i don't see it" so, whatever.

    and for the last time, Gimli is NOT as tall as a human in that version. i own the dvd, i'm a huge Bakshi fan (which is the only reason i put up with the film which is very unfinished). i know what i'm talking about. jeezizjosefnmary!
  4. Ulaleros Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    ok kit...but he does NOT look like a dwarf...he looks human size, even if he's not AS tall as aragorn or boromir. and elves are supposed to be tall anyway, taller than humans...so saying legolas was taller than him is not saying much.
  5. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    You're right about Legolas > leftover stereotypes of "elfin" characters, something Tolkien loathed > but PJ's D&D Elves are not an improvement. As far as proportions, i don't folow you. Why shouldn't Gimli be built like a human? I don't recall anything that indicates Dwarves being built in some strange, unhuman way.
  6. alfy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 1
    How are Jackson's elves "D&D elves"?
  7. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    IAKF,

    "I don't see it" is not coming from me. I posted a painting that inspired PJ created by one of his art designers. I prove my points when possible, I don't throw my arms up and say, "I don't see it". I haven't seen the Baski version in quite a while. so if you have opinions about similarities, I would like to here them. PLain and simple.

    As far as D&D i concerned, wasn't it actually inspired by LotR?

    Oh, and the elvisk word for Dwarves in Tolkien's world is Naugrim. It means "Stunted People".
  8. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    "Stunt : to check the growth of." = not full height. not sure what that means. not all creatures of ME the same size. anyone have more info on Tolkien's definition of "stunted"? Sounds like 'short' to me.

    The John Howe painting was inspired by Bakshi, by his own admition. The quote is out there on the 'net and shouldn't be too hard to drum up if you are really interested. Once again, people who know better can see what images were taken, even if they are not credited. I'm not going to waste space listing them so you can refute them by saying "I don't see it, you're just plain wrong, blah blah blah ad infinitum..."

    D&D : partially inspired by LORs as far as my knowledge goes, but they are only a pale shadow of the race created by Tolkien. The man would have hated them (I refer to the series of novels and their related ilk). There is a difference. Of the sorrowful, numinous creatures evoked in Tolkien's works, I saw nothing of them on the screen - sorry. And their costumes were truly hideous! > But that is a matter of purely personal taste.
  9. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
  10. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    have no idea if this link'll work for you but :

    www.canoe.ca/jamlordoftherings/dec31_artist-cp.html (if it doesn't come up use the Canoe SEARCH - type in John Howe).

    There's another interview somewhere where JH actually says more about the Bakshi scene -that it looked exactly right or something to that effect. But there are lots of cribs that aren't explained by that one story, too.

    also, i knew someone who worked at Newline during the preproduction phase and they told me that the Bakshi film was watched quite a few times (to their knowledge). i haven't seen this person in a while but they were trustworthy so i don't doubt them.

  11. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    My role in the film is actually a very minor one. And although we did read the scripts and we did discuss them with everybody, we did have huge, hours and hours of discussions on the uses of evil and all sorts of things, and the way to present characters and all. You name it, we discussed everything up and down, but I didn't make any decisions. So, officially I haven't seen that crappy movie from 1979. But, I think that Ralph Bakshi was largely hindered by the techniques he used, and by the fact that he had to cut it into two movies, and they made so many strange changes to the actual book. Peter Jackson had the immense luck of having much more freedom. So... I can't remember your question! (general laughter) - John Howe
  12. JenX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    KIT, I you are going to say that many shots were taken from the Bakshi film then you really need to give some more evidence. Yeah, there will be people who don't see it, but so what?

    I want to see some evidence. I'd like to see which shots were lifted so that I can compare the shots, and compare the scenes with the books.

    And as for your New Line source...hmmmm, maybe they watched it to see how NOT to make LOTR? :p
  13. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    The animated film is horrible in more than one way, yet for a filmmaker who is a Tolkien fan you'd imagine that it would be required viewing. I don't think anyone would be surprised to learn that it had some influence, conscious or unconscious, on Jackson's own interpretation if only as a benchmark for how NOT to make his own movie. I've given one example of similar composition of shots, but that's the only one I've noticed. Whether Jackson was influenced directly by Bakshi or indirectly through Howe is sort of irrelevant.

    Jackson made a great film, and I think it's clear he didn't need to stand on Bakshi's shoulders to do it.
  14. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    well, obviously JH saw the film, he's being ironic in that quote, also I think it pretty much confirms that they did indeed watch and discuss the film. no doubt they didn't like it but they did use it.

    as for the pot-shot "how not to" > obviously they didn't learn "how to" either.

  15. Darth Euro Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 4
    "as for the pot-shot "how not to" > obviously they didn't learn "how to" either. "

    Yeah, obviously, since everyone (critics, LOTR fans, and the general public) really hates the movie! :D
  16. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    I wish Peter would have went with Bakshi's Balrog design. The fuzzy slippers were a nice touch! :D
  17. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    what fuzzy slippers?

    what do I care about other people's opinion?? what I think is all that matters to me. i'll stick to my own opinions, thank you.

    please, let's just drop Bakshi. this is about SW, LORs & Matrix.
  18. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Did anyone here like the Matrix? It seems the overwhelming majority does not. I found it to be entertaining, but probably not in the same league as tht other two trilogies. Of course, that has no bearing on whether or not it will last.
  19. Darth Euro Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 4
  20. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Re the interview: the Bakshi movie made $70 million? Is that credible? I mean, if it was that profitable why didn't he complete the work?

    I think the interviewer is force-feeding Bakshi a bit, deliberately trying to massage his ego. I mean, what's the real evidence that the animated version was in any way a template for the film?
  21. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    what's wrong with that interview? i guess he's not allowed to be honest, have an opinion or have any feelings whatsoever about a project he busted his hump over. i respect him more now! Go Ralph!!

    in 20 years when someone produces the 20 hour LORs tv miniseries, PJ is going to be saying the same thing.

    * * * *
    no one knows why WB backed out of LORs PTII. they just lost interest in the property.
  22. MexChewie Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    I did like the Matrix, and am looking forward to the two next year.
  23. stone_jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    I also enjoyed the Matrix, and am also looking forward to the next two next year. :)

  24. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Funny how anyone who gives an interview which criticizes Lucas is embraced as a credible source and fiercely defended, but when someone gives an interview which criticizes (cue heavenly choirs of angels) Peter Jackson, people say, "Any respect I may have had for him is gone."

    But I keep forgetting. This is a SW site, and therefore any criticism of Lucas is to be treated with the utmost respect, whereas any criticism of Jackson is to be ridiculed and dismissed.

    Wait, that didn't make sense.
  25. Darth Euro Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 4
    Shelley, I'm flattered that you think that I speak for the entire forum! ;)
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