The Matrix, the SW PT, and LotR: Which Trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    i so agree.

    and i don't think awards & high profile are enough to make something lasting. look at other films that got great reviews, inspired fervor and won tons of awards, films that are hardly ever mentioned now, like "Dances With Wolves". It's a pretty obscure film now but back in '89 you couldn't walk two feet without getting hit in face by its pop-culture presence.
  2. alfy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 1
    Matrix - An interesting and entertaining Sci-fi action that became a cult film leading to the creation of 2 sequels. Will it be timeless, probably not because it never tapped into popular culture.

    Um, that's actually ALL it did, was tap into popular culture. I won't argue for the quality of it, since I think it was an average/above average sci-fi film, but to say it didn't tap into popular culture is incorrect. Bullet time, and all that...it was a phenomenon.


    LOTR - For many people this was the mother of all movies. For me, it was a 3 hour borathon since I did not have information from the books to fill in the blanks.

    Neither did most critics, but they hailed it as a masterpiece despite...check the EW review by Lisa Schwartzbaum for a perfect example of someone who didn't know the books still "getting" the movie.


    However, while it is very well received critically and for the most part by fans and audiences, it has not dominated or captivated the imaginations of the masses, nor has it obtained a level of fun necessary for timeless quality.

    So it's been very well-received by critics, fans, and audiences, but it hasn't captivated the imaginations of the masses? Aren't audiences the masses? You contradicted yourself completely. Also, a film doesn't "obtain" a level of fun, it simply has one or doesn't. Most critics and fans say that there was a genuine sense of adventure in Fellowship of the Ring.


    SW - Putting the PT separate from the OT will be impossible just because they are part of a six episode saga.

    It's hardly impossible. They are distinctly different in storyline, in age, and in quality. The effects are also completely different.


    In time episodes 1-6 will not be seen as two trilogies but as one saga.

    It'll never happen.


    Thus the PT is not a competing trilogy with the above, but it is part of a saga competing against LOTR and the Matrix.

    There are really 4 trilogies to compare here, and the PT is the weakest of them....to most people, the big competition will be between LOTR and the OT.


    SW will stand the test of time far long after LOTR and Matrix hype is gone.

    LOTR has stood the test of time far longer than Star Wars, I'm afraid. Hobbits and magical rings have been a part of the popular culture since the 30's. The movies will only prolong that indefinately.


    It's references all over the media will remain strong forever, both from the PT and from the OT.

    Huh? References to the PT, in popular culture, haven't been common, in my experience. People will always refer to the OT characters, who are indeed a part of the popular culture. But you won't hear late night comedians cracking Jango Fett jokes 20 years from now, because they didn't even crack them when the movie came out. The only character who is PT-specific that is known in pop culture is Jar Jar Binks, and he's only popular for how AWFUL he was.


    Bashing Jar Jar Binks on TV shows will be alive far after LOTR has died, just as "Luke I am your father" will be quoted time after time in Star Wars parodies on other shows.

    Um, you're bragging that the only lasting mark the prequels will make on popular culture is that Jar Jar sucks? Weird.


    The PT is being HEAVILY scrutinized because there is too much for it to live up to.

    That's simply not true. Perhaps the first film suffered from the overhyping, but AOTC came out and didn't even meet LOWERED critical expectations.


    If both TPM and AOTC were ANH and ESB back in 77 and 80, they would have sparked the pop culture phenomenon that is star wars just as the others did back when.

    I disagree. They would've been equivalent to Ridley Scott's "Legend." Just big, overblown special effects movies without heart or value. If TPM had been the first Star Wars movie, there never would've been sequels.


    In the time of the OT, no one had an image of what they wanted Star Wars sequels to be, they just came...now there is the internet, and books and books from the Galaxy far
  3. alfy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 1
    and i don't think awards & high profile are enough to make something lasting. look at other films that got great reviews, inspired fervor and won tons of awards, films that are hardly ever mentioned now, like "Dances With Wolves". It's a pretty obscure film now but back in '89 you couldn't walk two feet without getting hit in face by its pop-culture presence.

    Um, historical epics don't really stay "in your face" as far as pop culture is concerned. You don't see Lawrence of Arabia references everywhere either, but like Dances With Wolves, it's still one hell of a good film.
  4. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    In time episodes 1-6 will not be seen as two trilogies but as one saga.

    It'll never happen.


    Maybe not for you but it will happen my friend. Thats the point since they are all episodes of the same thing it makes sense that they'll be seen as the one saga.


    The PT is being HEAVILY scrutinized because there is too much for it to live up to.

    That's simply not true. Perhaps the first film suffered from the overhyping, but AOTC came out and didn't even meet LOWERED critical expectations.


    No that is simply true. Expectations of the whole trilogy were at such a standard and level, that Lucas could hardly match those with the story he wanted to portray. It shows instantly how far the creator's vision is from the fans when they can't stand the story he wants to tell.
    And all this scrutinising is the result of fans concoctions that the OT is an almighty trilogy and something it isn't, I can see that the PT would have failed anyway.


    What? He didn't have to make the prequels. If he was going to make them, though, he should've made them better.

    Terrible statement. Ok he didnt have to make them but he did. Secondly, you're saying this in hindsight. Bad attitude. He can only make them what they are, for you they wont be good enough, fair enough.


    Regardless, Star Wars will stand the test of time simply because it started it all, and revolutionized the way we see and enjoy movies.

    What did Star Wars start? It started the big mindless summer blockbuster trend. If anything, Star Wars killed good movies through it's influence. When you go and see Scooby Doo Strikes Back or American Pie 39, thank Star Wars for "starting it all."


    "Your focus determines your reality." Focus on the negative why dont you. Lets see LOTR, Harry Potter, Jurassic Park (not its sequels) are examples of films that would never have been made if it weren't for Star Wars. It changed things, but for all the bad movies that were a product of it there are good films. Stop this cynical look on things.

    And really I can see the full Star Wars saga standing the test of time, as I can will LOTR but the Matrix come on!
    I hated LOTR & the Matrix, but i see that LOTR will become one of the greats but the books will always, always outshine the films.
    The Matrix, well I see it as a fad, poor sci fi flick that makes half hearted attempt at adding a little mythology into it.
    Star Wars forever! :D
  5. darth_obawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 4
    My opinion: they all rock & each are very different so itz really ^ 2 the fans.
  6. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    "What did Star Wars start? It started the big mindless summer blockbuster trend. If anything, Star Wars killed good movies through it's influence. When you go and see Scooby Doo Strikes Back or American Pie 39, thank Star Wars for "starting it all." "

    it is generally agreed that star wars ended the american film renaissance of the 70's and started the trend of the flashy, high budget summer event movie.

    as for the trilogies always being considered as one 6-part saga. i'd have to say i agree. after all, no one ever looks at JUST the exorcist right? we have to consider the crappy obscure sequels as part of the "saga". same with psycho and its sequels. i mean...i NEVER think of psycho with out thinking of psycho II, III, and IV.
    gimme a break. of course people will separate the trilogies.

    i must say though, that my expectations were EXTREMELY low for aotc after the travesty that was TPM. aotc was in fact better than i expected, but still not very good.
  7. JBFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    That's simply not true. Perhaps the first film suffered from the overhyping, but AOTC came out and didn't even meet LOWERED critical expectations.

    Who are you to say it didn't meet expectations. It's my second favourite of the saga. Look on these boards. There are people, actually almost seventy percent, who love the movie AOTC) and place it among their top three in the saga. On top of that almost everyone thinks it's better than TPM. While it may seem a farfetched idea, there are people that think different than you.

    It's hardly impossible. They are distinctly different in storyline, in age, and in quality. The effects are also completely different.

    You have no idea what your talking about. Do you think little kids and people of future generations will be told how to watch the saga that is numbered 1-6? On top of that, there are first generation fans NOW that have only seen Menace and Clones and will wait until Episode 3 comes out before seeing the rest of the saga...and let me tell you this: I have introduced someone to the saga, first she saw menace, which she thought was good (a non fan's critical mind) and clones which she LOVED. Then she was introduced to the OT, and she thought ANH paled in comparison and ESB (which is my favourite), wasnt as good as the prequels. So your logic only accounts for the bashers out there, like yourself.

    What did Star Wars start? It started the big mindless summer blockbuster trend. If anything, Star Wars killed good movies through it's influence. When you go and see Scooby Doo Strikes Back or American Pie 39, thank Star Wars for "starting it all."

    Why are you even on these boards? This world is doomed to destruction if ignorance like this persists. Why come to a STAR WARS MESSAGE BOARD if you relentlessly bash STAR WARS. Moreso, you hate the prequels, why come to a prequel forum. May God have mercy on your poor soul.
  8. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    You have taken the words right out of my.. erm.. fingers, JBFett. Bravo. And, to go along with your flawed logic alfy... that would put LOTR in the mindless summer blockbuster category as well. I have never, in my life seen someone crack a refrence to a quote from one of the Lord of the Rings books... I have however, seen many people, young and old, crack refrences to Star Wars. Which one did you say was a part of pop culture? By the way, only being able to post someone's else paragraph, and come up with a brief insult afterwards isn't exactly the best way to argue.
  9. force_storm663 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 1
    Coo ya maya stoopa,keel-ee calleya ku kah.

    LOTR, as a movie, as a trilogy, as anything portrayed outside the imaginations of readers can never compare to the impact Star Wars has made on society, Alfy. The Fellowship strayed greatly from the novel from whence it came, and in some peoples' eyes this is a factor of ruination. There are many errors in the movie that occured in the transition from the book. And, since you are such a great fan of the LOTR trilogy, you would know that it is not a trilogy at all, but 6 parts of the same story diveded amongst three books. Do not tell me this is not true, for I have read it with my own two eyes. In one hundred years, ask anybody about Star Wars and they will agree that it is one of the best movie sagas of all time. Ask the same person about the Lord of the Rings movies and they will say, "I thought that was a book?"
  10. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I don't think any of us has the prescience to be able to make definitive epistemological claims for what future generations will or will not know. If we can get beyond the argument that the films have taken liberties with relatively minor plot points (we'll also have to ignore the end of the Saruman story arc, since that constitutes a major departure from the books, but I digress), we are left with a still-strong critically-acclaimed work of fantasy, which, when all is said and done, will be ten-plus hours of solid entertainment. I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that this effort will go the way of the dodo.

    If it were possible to divorce the PT from the OT, I'm not sure I'd be willing to say the same for Eps. 1-3. They make an interesting story unto themselves, but I think that their inherent contentiousness will cut at the memory of the PT - for many fans, they simply aren't as enjoyable as the original three. That they (the PT and the OT) will be bundled together will keep them all "memorable" in some sense. How often they are watched, however, will be a different question.
  11. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    I don't think, starting with EPI, that anyone who is displeased will ever discover EPIV-VI. Which is pretty much right > if you start with EPI you have a good idea of what SW is all about. Everyone new to the saga should start with EPI IMO.
  12. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    if lucas had wanted it that way, he would have made ep. 1 first. his rationale was that it would reveal too much about the ot if he made the pt first. besides, it is an often used device in literature, to present the past retrograde to see WHY things turn out the way they did. if you watched the first, you wouldnt get the big shock surprise in empire strikes back. i think for future generations lucas would want that preserved. it is one of the great revelations in cinema after all. very greek.
  13. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    But you still would get the big shock of Palpatine being a Sith and the Republic collapsing and the Jedi dying and Anakin goign to the Dark Side, all of which are much bigger shocks than "I am your father" (no matter how great the latter is). And I believe the reason he started with IV had nothing to do with surprises (in fact, it's arguable whether Anakin was Vader as of ANH), but rather that the studio had him pick one and would only let him make the sequels if he did well on the first one. He figured IV was the best place to start, since it was in the most action-filled part of the story, and by necessity I would be largely exposition, and of course action would draw more people to the theaters.
  14. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    i dont think those are really great revelations...they certainly arent "shocks"...those things are just developments, except for MAYBE palpatine becoming a sith...but with all the foreshadowing and stuff, its only gonna seem natural that anakin goes to the dark side, and that the republic collapses, and palpatines identity...its nothing you cant see coming a mile away. those kind of things are in every movie. like in blood work, which i saw on friday...clint eastwood's friend turned out to be the villain. that stuff is everywhere. i dont think its that big of a shock/revelation that palpatine is a sith. besides, in greek literature it usually has to do with familial relations. like in oedipus rex where the man he just happens to kill on the bridge that day was the father he had never known. and the woman he marries turns out to be his mother. or in the oresteia, when the guy ate the soup that was made out of his children.

    anyway, all i'm saying is that i read lucas started with episode 4 because he didnt want ep. 1-3 to give aways its secrets. i think it is fine to start with the ot then watch the pt. think about ethan frome, by edith wharton...it starts in the present day, showing a broken and miserable ethan from, then it goes back and the rest of the books describes his past...and shows how he got to be the way he is in the present. its a common literary device.
  15. JBFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    thats not true. PPOR. Lucas has never said that. He intends future generations to watch 1-6 the way they are. That is why they are numbered as such. There is enough information about the characters in the prequels to make you love them as much as you do the characters in the OT. "surprises" arent something lucas cares about as much as simply telling his story, in a six part saga.

    Lucas made episode 4-6 first because it was the most exciting part and climax of the saga. No one wanted to see a movie like episode 1 because it was too expository. They wanted the action and the simple tale of good v evil. Because the OT was successful was the reason Lucas could go back and make 1-3. so he could finish what he started in 1977. If Lucas was as carefree as he was then as he is now, Episode 1 would have come first and he could make things the way he wanted them to be made.

    Remember...there was no "Episode IV" nor was there "A NEW HOPE" there was just STAR WARS. No one knew the movie would be huge. That is why Lucas went back after it was successful and said "It's mine and I will do what I want how I want" thus it was titled EPISODE 4 A NEW HOPE and he could complete what he started.

    thank you and BOOYA!
  16. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    hmm...no, i'm pretty sure he said something about ep. 1-3 giving stuff away about 4-6.

    and i dont know about it not being called ep. 4. as long as i can remember the the scrolling text at the beginning of a new hope always said episode IV.
  17. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Resorting to nitpicking to suppourt your failing argument I see, hm?
  18. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    You're losing us, UL!

    GL has always mainatined that he chose to film the last half of the saga first because it was the most exciting. I have an interview circa '83 where he talks about I-III being mostly intrigue, politics + cloak and dagger, how Luke/Leia's parents got together, the Clone War and how the Republic fell (that's pretty much a paraphrase of the sentence). I think he's delivered on that.

    He has also said recently that he didn't think he'd ever get to do I-III because of their scope.

    I have a pretty huge collection of magazine articles & books about GL and I don't remember once reading that he held back I-III because he didn't want to give things away. In fact, he was so fed up by the time he was finally making ANH that he set things up so that he could just walk away from it if he felt like it. The Alan Dean Foster book (SOTME) attests to this.

    I'm not sure how much he had settled on yet, either. The Clone Wars must have been pretty firmly imagined since there's stuff from between ANH & ESB about the Stormtroopers being clones. But there's some stuff on the cutting room floor from ANH that contradicts later ideas. Leia wasn't even Luke's sister at that point, according to Gary Kurtz.

    So, there goes your theory. Stick with LORs (the movies) which you seem to know well.
  19. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    I'm so tired of all this stupid stuff about Peter Jackson's LOtRs not being as good as SW because PJ didn't invent LOtRs!!!!

    PJ IMPROVED LOtRs. I tried to read Fellowship of the Rings but could not even finish it because it was so boring and it made so little sense. I mean, while Frodo is dying on the way to Rivendell the Fellowship stop to tell stories and sing songs instead of getting him to safety- no one in real life would do that! Or after Boromir dies instead of running after the Orcs right away Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli stop and recite really long poems about the wind! THE WIND!! And Tom Bombadill is the stupidest character ever written into a book. He served absolutely no purpose.

    Now I give Tolkien his props for starting the modern fantasy genre but he wasn't that great of a writer, he needed someone like PJ to come along and show the world what LOtRs Could Be if handled correctly. PJ didn't even stick to the book because the book is boring and doesn't make sense, he used it the way Lucas used old myths, as source material for something better and more modern.

    Lucas I think is the loser here. He gave up his right to respect when he made TPM. Someone even posted a quote of his that he doesn't care about SW. He only makes them for the money so he can make brilliant films like Howard The Duck (brilliant George!) and Willow (which everyone agrees is the worst b-rate fantasy movie ever). If it weren't for PJ making LOtR's no one would even be interested in the stupid prequels anymore - Lucas is feeding off of the good name PJ has given to fantasy movies. Lucas stopped caring about SW when he invented the Ewoks to sell more toys.

    So it's no contest : only LOtRs will stand the test of time. PJ didn't make LOtRs movies to sell stuffed animals he made them because he cares about fantasy and the art of great movie making. C'mon, almost everyone agrees on this.
  20. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    you're right...my argument is completely gone cause you make some claim. look, you'll never prove it to me, because i know, i have seen with my own eyes, statements that he made about not wanting to reveal secrets about 4-6. i cant prove it to anyone else, but that doesnt matter...because i know what i've seen. lucas has probably made 50 different statements over the years about why he did ep.4 first...and there's probably a little truth in all of them. but i know for a fact that ONE reason was that he didnt want to give away parts of 4-6. also, i dont understand why that would be such a strange thing...i've already given one example of a narrative set up that way...another example is frankenstein by mary shelly.
  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I'm so tired of all this stupid stuff about Peter Jackson's LOtRs not being as good as SW because PJ didn't invent LOtRs!!!!

    I've seen no stupid stuff about how FOTR wasn't as good as SW because (cue heavenly choirs of angels) Peter Jackson didn't invent it.

    What I have seen is people saying Jackson isn't as creative as Lucas because he didn't invent LOTR.

    IMO, FOTR (the movie) wasn't as good as SW, regardless of who invented the story.
  22. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Lucas I think is the loser here. He gave up his right to respect when he made TPM. Someone even posted a quote of his that he doesn't care about SW.

    Actually, the quote says the exact opposite. He's making the movies for his own enjoyment, and if the fans like them, that's a plus.

    He only makes them for the money so he can make brilliant films like Howard The Duck (brilliant George!)

    He was a producer on Howard the Duck. Producers rake up money, not work on the creative aspects of the movie. George was not involved in the creative aspects.

    and Willow (which everyone agrees is the worst b-rate fantasy movie ever).

    Well, I agree, but I don't think everyone does. Everyone has their low point. Jackson did The Frighteners. Spielberg did The Lost World. Lucas did Willow.

    If it weren't for PJ making LOtR's no one would even be interested in the stupid prequels anymore - Lucas is feeding off of the good name PJ has given to fantasy movies.

    As soon as I figure out what the heck you're talking about I'll get back to you on that. I think you're saying that the prequels are leeching on LOTR's success, which not only makes no sense, but also has no basis in reality, since TPM came out two years before LOTR.

    Lucas stopped caring about SW when he invented the Ewoks to sell more toys.

    And the big shiny gold robot who cracks jokes and argues humorously with his short, beeping, trash-can shaped pal is a subtle mythological archetype. So are Jawas, right? But somehow, the Ewoks, who represent nature triumphing over technology, are only used to sell toys. This makes no sense. The Ewoks are just another species in the GFFA, not a sign that "Lucas stopped caring".
  23. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Lucas is feeding off of the good name PJ has given to fantasy movies.

    It would have been easier if you had come straight out and said "hit me in the head with a brick please."

    When Star Wars came out, Jackson wasn't even dreaming about LOTR. Lucas couldn't make money to produce Howard the Duck and Willow from the prequels, since THEY CAME OUT BEFORE. And if you think interest in Fellowship of the Ring raised viewing rates for Attack of the Clones, you're out of your mind. Please, remember that TPM came out before FOTR did, and therefore Lucas couldn't "feed off the good name PJ has given to fantasy movies." Unless of course he invented a time machine.
  24. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Darth tarpal, please re-read my post. What I'm saying is > after the let-down that was Phantom Menace no one was interested in Star Wars anymore. But the high quality of Fellowship of the Ring got audiences interested in fantasy again. But look how badly Attack of the Clones did at the box office. I think it's the least successful Star Wars movie to date. Even with Peter Jackson paving the way Lucas couldn't find an audience. I don't know anyone who bothered to see AOtC. But I do know people who payed to see FOtR again when it was rereleased cause -A- it was better than anything else playing -B- they wanted a glimpse of T2T. That's what I'm saying.

    I give Luca$ props for the first two Star Wars movies. He reinvented sci-fi/fantasy movies for his day and introduced mythical archetypes into pop culture for the 70s and 80s, but Return of the Jedi was marred by marketing concerns. After Raiders of the Lost Ark Lucas was never involved in a respectable film again. I never hear any new filmmakers site him as an influence or as someone they respect (except for Kevin Smith, and his praise is pretty faint). I get the impression that the filmmaking community is embarrassed by Lucas. He's clearly lost all creativity.

    Shelley : there's no way ANY Star Wars movie is better than FOtR > if you had a pole, even on this site, I'm sure more people would vote for FOtR than any Star Wars film as "best" - something may be your favorite but that doesn't make it best.
  25. force_storm663 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 1
    If it weren't for PJ making LOtR's no one would even be interested in the stupid prequels anymore - Lucas is feeding off of the good name PJ has given to fantasy movies.

    What are you on? PJ did NOT make LOTR. J.R.R. TOLKIEN DID! And to whoever posted this, as far as "the book sucking" goes: you can shove it. Without the book, there would be no movie. And the poems no one would say in real life: those poems were a tribute. And without Tom Bombadil, they would be dead in the Barrow Downs. If you think that the books are boring, you have no imagination and probably spend most of your time in your parent's basement jerking off to adult films. Plus, Lucas doesn't need to "feed off of the 'good name' PJ fave to fantasy movies" Lucas practically invented it. He set the standard for modern day Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre. Star Wars fans that are worth a damn and are actually what they claim to be will see the saga to it's end, no matter if it sucks or not. So to those who think LotR will supass Star Wars as being the best movies of all time, you need to go find a LotR forum, because I won't read your garbage on a Star Wars one.
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