The Matrix, the SW PT, and LotR: Which Trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    fortunately the PT doesn't suck!!
  2. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    I really don't get how you can say no one bothered to see AOTC, when it's made just slightly less than FOTR has, in MUCH less than half the release time.

    And saying that everyone lost interest in Star Wars, because Phantom Menace was a let down, is an extreme overstatement, and a generalization. I, for one, enjoyed the Phantom Menace, quite a bit actually. If you think FOTR is better than any of the Star Wars movies.. there's really no point of you being here at all, is there?

    Edit: Thank you Force Storm!
  3. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    I'm here because the idea behind this thread interests me. That okay with you?!?

    FOtR : 3 hour film based on obscure book by non Hollywood filmmaker that not many people have heard of with no big stars.

    AOtC : FIFTH SW movie made by massively famous Hollywood filmmaker, part of a famous film series with lots of hot stars.

    Now, you tell me that they made almost the same amount (FOtR still made more)and there's NO difference?

    FOtR proves that a good movie is better than million$ of dollar$ worth of hype & toy merchandising. People came out to support a good movie because their friends, family, movie critics said they should. AOtC is relatively far less successful - why? Because anyone older than 12 can tell that Luca$ just wants to go on living in style. SW is his ticket for the rest of his life. If he really cared he'd make a serious movie with a real script, good acting and a talented director, like he did with ROtLA and tESB.
  4. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Couple corrections for you buddy.
    FOtR : 3 hour film LOOSELY based on a NONobscure book by non Hollywood filmmaker that not many people have heard of with no big stars.

    AOtC : Fifth SW movie made by massively famous non-Hollywood filmmaker, part of a famous film series with two hot stars.

    People go out to suppourt a good movie because they feel like going to the movies. I'm getting really sick of people saying Lucas can't write a script and Hayden/Nat/everyone else can't act. If that's so, howcome the confession is one of the most powerful scenes in the series? Why was the movie so popular, if it was so poorly written? And talking about LOTR vs. Star Wars hype is like the pot calling the kettle black.

    AOTC wasn't "relatively far less successful" because, firstly, roughly 13 million isn't much of a diffrence, and secondly, it's quite impossible for something to be "relatively far less" anything. You say he'd make a movie with a real script, and a "good director" hm.. I guess directors of critically acclaimed trilogies aren't good enough for you?

    If all you're going to do is trash Star Wars, and herald Rings, I don't think this is the board for you.
  5. force_storm663 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 1
    Listen here, dumba$$: Lucas DID NOT make the PT to make more money, he made it because this was his orignal intention. He waited this long because FX techniques until now sucked. As far as "obscure" goes, 3/4 people knew about LotR before the movie. You're acting like a movie that strayed SO far from the book is better than an actual movie itself. Making books into movies ruins the imaginations of people who actually read the book for reasons other then it was a movie, which what I get from these posts, most all the people behind the LotR movies did. I read the LotR long before it was a concept for movies, and though the movie was good, it could have been better through use of more book content. And yes I know if they had it would have been twice as long, so don't try to argue that. As far as "less-famous actors", that's the biggest load of BS I've heard since I read the post supporting LotR over Star Wars on a Star Wars forum. Who hasn't heard of Elijah Wood, Sir Ian McKellan, or Liv Tyler? (who, by the way, is daughter of Steven Tyler, lead singer of Aerosmith) Plus, Star Wars made big movie stars out of Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hammil. FotR will only increase the already existant fame of the afore mentioned stars. If you just want to put down Star Wars and proclaim the dominancy of LOTR, get the hell off of a Star Wars forum, for God's sake. I don't give a damn if you were interested in the thread, if you like LOTR so damn much, go join that forum, keep your trash off of ours.

    "Why was the movie so popular if it was so poorly written?"-Darth Tarpals
    Thank You and Good Night. (ps: quit with the $'s as s's, n00b)

  6. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    non-Hollywood filmmaker

    I don't think this statement is true anymore, no matter what Lucas says to the contrary.

    If all you're going to do is trash Star Wars, and herald Rings, I don't think this is the board for you.

    As much as I've hated people saying this baselessly....well, this time it ain't baseless. You are just bashing Lucas now.
  7. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    I think of Lucas as an independant type director, due to the fact that he didn't make any gigantic summer blockbuster smashes besides Star Wars, and yet he has made cult phenoms like Willow.
  8. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    I'm just being honest - or is that not allowed? Anyway, I said I give Lucas props for his first few films but most people agree that he's lost it. Sorry.

    As for the rest - sounds like you guys are grasping at straws.
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Man Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and The Matrix are a great bunch of movies. Can't imagine how it must suck to only have one of these to enjoy.
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    most people agree that he's lost it. Sorry.

    As I say to everyone who I disagree with, and even myself at times, "Never presume to speak for the majority, ever."

    As for the rest - sounds like you guys are grasping at straws.

    I'm as big a FotR fan as they come. I even thought it was better than AotC. But I'm siding with Darth_Tarpals here. I think you are the one grasping at straws.

    EDIT: Man Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and The Matrix are a great bunch of movies. Can't imagine how it must suck to only have one of these to enjoy.

    Hear, Hear!

    EDIT EDIT: I do not think Star Wars is perfect, and I do not think George Lucas is a God.
    I just happen to enjoy good movies, even the imperfect ones made by mere mortals.
    I could be wrong, I just don't think so.


    Great sig man! :)
  11. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Hey now, I still haven't said anything about the Matrix. I for one, can't wait to see the jumping, and the flying, and the kicking and the shooting and the craziness. Plus, I do like FOTR, I bought the DVD on the third day of release.. I just don't like it as much as any of the Star Wars movies. :p
  12. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I'm waiting for the November release myself.

    Can't wait for TTT, and the next Matrix movie. Just a few more months.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Thanks Jansons_Funny_Twin, it has taken me years to get it just right.
  14. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
  15. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Steady... steady. The "witty" retort will come soon.
  16. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Sorry to rain on your parade, guys. It's just a fact that Peter Jackson has filled the void that Lucas left behind when money became more important to him than art. Look at Peter Jackson's film - they represent a natural upwards spike from his independent films to heavier themes to LOtRs.

    Now, look at Lucas. From ROtJ to now it's a downward spiral with one disastrous flop after another : IJ&ToD, Labyrinth, Ewok tv movies, Howard the Duck, Willow, Young Indiana Jones (the tv show no one seems to have seen), Radioland Murders, the SW destroyed-editions and now the PT which has been panned by critics and fans alike.

    Now before you run under the cover of The Frighteners again look at the facts : PJ was given a big budget, vfx etc.. and he didn't do as good as hoped (he still made an original and interesting film that looked good). The next time he was given that oppurtunity he gives us...LOtRs, a universally hailed timeless classic.

    Lucas : his budgets get bigger and bigger but his movis get worse and worse. AOtC was almost unwatchably bad. Someone suggested a 14 year old with a 100 million $ budget...I think they nailed it on the head. Who can argue agains these Facts??

    If it weren't for SW merchandise Lucas would be directing infomercials by now.
  17. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Someone suggested a 14 year old with a 100 million $ budget...I think they nailed it on the head. Who can argue agains these Facts??

    Actually, the 14 year old comment was about Battlefield Earth.

    As for facts, don't peddle that BS. What you have are opinions. You can have them, but do not peddle them as absolut fact. :mad:

    EDIT: Spelling errors
  18. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    "Loosely based" - thank god!

    An example of how FOtR was improved: in the book Merry and Pippen are basically stalking Frodo, gathering personal information instead of just asking him what's the matter like normal people would. They then spring these facts on him and force him to let them come along - yet they complain the whole time!

    In PJs version : Merry & Pippen get swept up in the events - they have no idea what's going on YET THEY STAY TRUE TO FRODO. This makes their sacrifice far more moving. They are motivated by friendship not bits of information they've got from spying.
  19. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Sorry, but if enough people believe something it should be accepted as fact.

    See the above for an example of how PJ understands audiences better than Lucas does now. He's taken an unbelievable plot line and weak characters and made them understandable to everyone. Lucas has taken a story that might have been a modern mythology and reduced it to a regrettable set of sequels not many people are interested in.

    Another example is the Prologue. I looked up those events on a website called The Encyclopedia of Arda (it has a good guide to improvements made by the film). Anyway, according to them, the ancient wars with Sauron were basically long sieges where nothing happened. PJ took the essence of the story and crafted one of the most groundbreaking, original and exciting battles ever filmed.

    Lucas couldv'e used a little of that insight on TPM, no?
  20. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    and now the PT which has been panned by critics and fans alike.


    AOtC was almost unwatchably bad.


    "In time, they will learn to call PT... master." If AOTC was almost unwatchably bad, tell me why 300 million dollars worth of people went to watch it. You can't count the critics for anything; they smacked the OT around like it was a trout, and now look at them. They hail it as a masterpiece, a film before its time, etc. They'll be doing the same thing with the PT in 20 years.

    As Jansons Said, never speak for the majority. You may have despised TPM and AOTC, but neither of these boards would be here if everyone else did. You should also never assume another's motives. Your name isn't George Lucas, you don't know what he's making these movies for. One final point, how in god's name do you call TPM a flop? It made 400+ million dollars!
    Edit:
    He's taken an unbelievable plot line and weak characters and made them understandable to everyone.

    Good god man! Do you not realize that LOTR is the, if not one of the, most popular books EVER PUBLISHED? And on the TPM prologue fact, there was NO NEED for prologue. You're brought in at the beginning of the story, not the end, not the middle, not right after Amidala gets her hair done; THE BEGINNING. Hence, the number 1. That comes first, you know.

    Sorry, but if enough people believe something it should be accepted as fact
    We all think you're a dolt, does that mean this is a fact? ?[face_plain]
  21. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Sorry, but if enough people believe something it should be accepted as fact.

    Hey, in the 1st millenium, most people believed the world was flat, eh?

    Wow, a lot of people imply that they think their opinions are fact, but very few are ballsy enough to come out and say it. It leaves you wide open.

    What's "enough people"? One? One person's opinion hardly makes fact. The majority? The majority did not dislike the PTs. The majority of critics liked them (check rottentomatoes.com; 64% is definitely a majority). The majority of fans liked them, judging from these boards. The majority of people that I've talked to at random around my school liked them. So according to you, it's fact that they're good, right? :p
  22. Wot_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Flop : the majority of its target audience ejected it. On these boards I've seen many people state openly that Sw is a "tradition" they are observing even though the PT is painful for them. That's what I mean by a flop.

    Compare that to an audience expecting to be disappointed but who instead...discover a lovingly rendered classic made for all the right reasons.

    I wanted the PT to be great as much as anyone else. I even sat through AOtC. But afterwards I had to finally admit it...the PT is a wreck of bad ideas, contradictions, plotless sfx sequences and CGI run amok.

    Example: when I saw AOtC the audience was noticibly restless during the monster arena thing. Why? Because it didn't forward the story - it was put there to show off money spent and vfx. Compare that to the 'oohs' and 'aahs' and genuined suspense inspired by the Cave Troll sequence in FOtR.

    EDIT :

    Prologue - TPM was ALL prologue - it could've been reduced to one exciting sequence.

    I correct myself : if you hear something often enough from a wide enough cross section of people to suggest credibility to you, you can assume that what you're hearing is the general opinion of the populace. For example: the PT is a failure. Heard it from enough sci-fi, fantasy & hardcore SW fans (plus critics) for me to accept it as the general opinion. Better?
  23. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    The cave troll sequence did nothing to further the story, period. It was just one of PJ's little pet sequences. However, the arena battle got Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan rescued, as well as started off the clone war, and got rid of 200 extra jedi that would have died in the purge in 3 anyways.
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If that is all you can see in the arena attack sequence, that doesn't suprise me.
  25. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    the majority of its target audience ejected it.

    I hate to say it, but PPOR. I guarantee you will not find that the majority disliked it.

    On these boards I've seen many people state openly that Sw is a "tradition" they are observing even though the PT is painful for them.

    "Your focus determines your reality." I've seen many more people say that the PT are great movies, entertaining, fun, and just plain good. What's your point?

    Better?

    Nope. Still an inconceived and rather ignorant statement. And once again, the majority did not dislike the PT. If anything, they liked it.
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