The merits of religion

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by ophelia, Oct 20, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    Belief is your system of thought, and how the world should be interpreted.

    Faith is to believe, that what you think is correct.

    "Faith without Love is dry(and blind)"




    DD - Love Spliff

  2. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    I still don't think I am getting it. Is it just that one is the noun and the other the verb?
  3. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Enforcer...

    I think the difference is that a belief can be altered with proof or lack of proof.

    Faith is something that cannot. If one's faith is strong enough it will remain everlasting regardless of evidence presented.

    Make sense?

    This is why major religions have lasted for so long. Faith is blinding.



  4. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    Yes, blind faith, can be dangerous.

    Ask yourself "why do I believe" or "Who am I?"

    Love shall open your eyes




    DD - Love Spliff

  5. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Qui-Rune, are you saying that faith will not listen to reason or evidence? So even is somehow proof of error in ones faith is wrong, it won't matter. What?s more, does that mean that those with faith won't even try to think about the validity of their faith?

    Darth Dane. I was thinking that faith might be a reason to believe. You asked why do I believe?' The reason would be because I have faith, but is faith nothing more than a reason or justification? That still seems vague to me.

    As for 'Who am I?' There is no good answer to that question. If I said that my name was SG, what does that mean? So what. SG does not mean anything. I could say I am a student, but that is a temporary status thing. It is what I am called, how I am filed. I am an agnostic. I chose to be that and it does not really affect anything. I am me? So is everyone else. There is no good answer to who are you, and that may be the point of the question, just to get us to think about it.
  6. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Enforcer:

    Yes, for the most part...at least within the majority that I have met. It is the reason for why religions have lasted so long.

    Usually when "new" evidence is presented people try to find ways to apply it into their faith without allowing their faith to be altered or they will completely disregard the evidence if they cannot fit it in.

    This is my observation.
  7. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    "Darth Dane. I was thinking that faith might be a reason to believe."

    What is your definition of faith? You seem to believe in it. If you don't know what it is, how can you believe?

    "You asked why do I believe?' The reason would be because I have faith, but is faith nothing more than a reason or justification? That still seems vague to me."

    Your faith justifies how you view the world. You wish to believe that the way you look upon the world is teh correct one. And you have faith in it, because you can't get teh answer on paper so to say. So you think and hope and have faith, that your POV is correct.
    I believe it is correct. You have had no reason to believe other wise. I believe in teh same fashion. But I am also aware, that suddenly I may meet someone that may give me a new POV that is more correct, according to where I am coming from.

    I haven't met Jesus. But the words attributed to him, sounds very much like what I have found.

    "As for 'Who am I?' There is no good answer to that question."

    Ramana Maharishi said that a way to find teh answer, is just by keeping on asking that question.
    He realised one day, taht he was going to die, he was so stumped that he fell over and started to ask "who am I" He wanted to know this before he died. He got enlightened and spread his teachings.
    One of his teachings is this: "Be as you are" and this coming from an enlightened master. Interesting I think.

    "If I said that my name was SG, what does that mean? So what. SG does not mean anything. I could say I am a student, but that is a temporary status thing. It is what I am called, how I am filed."

    Yes it is a smart thing to know how to distinguih things, as temporarily they are.

    "I am an agnostic. I chose to be that and it does not really affect anything."

    For me that has changed everything.

    I know I nothing know.
    Is God real? I dunno
    Is God unreal? I dunno
    Keep asking and teh same answer will pop up.
    Am I real? I dunno, but other wise nothing will make sense.

    I don't know, but I choose to believe in Love/God, for me if you use Love or God, it doesn't matter really. It matters when you talk to people who differentiates between the two.


    "I am me? So is everyone else. There is no good answer to who are you, and that may be the point of the question, just to get us to think about it."

    I am a loving person when I am a loving person.
    I am an eating person when I am eating.
    I am a person that wishes to choose Love before I choose anything else.

    To myself I have Gnosis, I know God is.
    To you I am agnostic, I cannot prove my assertions. My actions will reveal me.


    DD - Love Spliff

  8. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Qui-Rune. I have a hard time accepting that. Although I see your point, to me it means that people are choosing to not think. That thinking is at best secondary, at worst worthless, if you have faith. To me it is absurd to do that, yet if you are right, then people are choosing to not think. People like that may even say thinking is bad since it is redundant compared to faith, and it might damage faith.

    Darth Dane

    I do not have a definition of faith. I have a few ideas, but I don't know. That is what I am asking. I thought that faith was a justification for believing something, but if you then had undeniable proof that 'your' god existed, faith would be at best equal to knowledge. Faith may at that point be even worse than knowledge since knowledge and understand cannot be taken blindly where faith can be. (I am not saying that faith must be taken blindly. Many here have thought about their faith and seen it is good, but you don't have to to still believe).

    Your faith justifies how you view the world. You wish to believe that the way you look upon the world is teh correct one. And you have faith in it, because you can't get teh answer on paper so to say. So you think and hope and have faith, that your POV is correct.

    Not really. In a way, I do not look upon the world. I am trying to figure out how to look upon the world. I must assume things since I am not spending every moment thinking about it (I am also an eating man sometimes), but I have no clue if they are right or not. Maybe in some ways, the ways I assume the world is fits, makes sense, and is later justified, so I have some reason to know that I am probably right, but faith I don't really think is entering into it.

    Also you can use thought to justify how you see the world, but you can go deeper than that. You can say that the thought of me existing because I observe and think is a minor way to justify our understanding of the world, but what about faith? It just seems like we say faith, but we cannot go any deeper than that. Or can we? (again, I don't know, which is why I am asking).

    I believe it is correct. You have had no reason to believe other wise. I believe in teh same fashion. But I am also aware, that suddenly I may meet someone that may give me a new POV that is more correct, according to where I am coming from.

    That to me is the whole reason of The Senate Floor. And of thought and reason. I see (although I don't know) thought and reason to be much more flexible than faith. Just as Qui-Rune is saying, even if he even a little bit right, faith seems to ridge to be taken too seriously.

    'Who are you?'

    Ok, is there any fulfilling unique answer for me? There are useful answers, and different people are satisfied with different answers, but is there any overall way to say who I am that really defines who I am?

    For me that has changed everything.

    I know I nothing know.
    Is God real? I dunno
    Is God unreal? I dunno
    Keep asking and teh same answer will pop up.
    Am I real? I dunno, but other wise nothing will make sense.


    I am not sure why me saying I am agnostic changed everything you thought about me, or your argument, or what, but its cool anyway. Although the first thing on that list is wrong if you are referring to me. That first line is logically absurd. If I know that I know nothing, then I know something! It would be better to say that "I don?t know if I know anything."

    On a side note, I don?t think an agnostic can be a true religious believer since knowledge and understand is put above faith.

    I don't know, but I choose to believe in Love/God, for me if you use Love or God, it doesn't matter really. It matters when you talk to people who differentiates between the two.

    Hehe, it reminds me of the phrase used to describe a lot of Christian pop, 'Jesus is my boyfriend.' Basically if you take out any religious references, the song sounds like a love song to someone?s boyfriend. :p

    Seriously though. You chose to believe in
  9. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Enforcer...

    To say that people of faith do not think is a bit too extreme in my opinion.

    Rather, I feel that people of faith do not seek knowledge. At least not the knowledge of things that may interfere with their faith.

    There is usually an underlying fear within their faith that prevents most from wanting to "broaden their horizons".

    Does this help you to distinguish Faith and Belief?
  10. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    "I do not have a definition of faith. I have a few ideas, but I don't know. That is what I am asking."

    I tooonly have ideas :)

    "I thought that faith was a justification for believing something, but if you then had undeniable proof that 'your' god existed, faith would be at best equal to knowledge."

    Yes, see the problem if someone(who believes in God) wants God to reveal Godself to them. When God reveals Godself, they go: "oh was that that?"

    The solution to a riddle is so clouded when you don't know. You know there is a solution but you can't see it. When you have the solution, everything regarding that riddle is easy, as easy as rain. But here is the catch. It is no fun, or not as much fun, as being given teh solution, as it is finding it on your own.
    When you find God(Truth - Your truth) on your own, you will be twice as proud, as if someone did it for you.
    Then someone finds teh solution, and starts saying it aloud. But people do not wish to hear, noone should think they have the answer, who do they think they are? More than me? Of royal blood?
    Sure it was easy for Jesus to talk about God, he was spoonfed by God self. Sheesh. Let someone like me(John doe) find teh answer.

    "Not really. In a way, I do not look upon the world. I am trying to figure out how to look upon the world."

    Heheh, how does your higher conciousness(God - your God) tell you to approach things? With caution? With kindness? With Love? Does it tell you, that you have no way of knowing if something is true?


    "I must assume things since I am not spending every moment thinking about it (I am also an eating man sometimes), but I have no clue if they are right or not."

    But you trust your feeling that somethings are better to do than others.

    "Maybe in some ways, the ways I assume the world is fits, makes sense, and is later justified, so I have some reason to know that I am probably right, but faith I don't really think is entering into it."

    Faith enters when teh future is invloved I think. You have some faith that all answers will come it seems.

    "Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe." St. Augustine

    "Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand." St. Augustine

    "Understanding is the reward of faith." St- Augustine

    Do they help?


    "Also you can use thought to justify how you see the world, but you can go deeper than that. You can say that the thought of me existing because I observe and think is a minor way to justify our understanding of the world, but what about faith? It just seems like we say faith, but we cannot go any deeper than that. Or can we? (again, I don't know, which is why I am asking). "

    I don't know. My understanding is that it is infinite.

    "That to me is the whole reason of The Senate Floor. And of thought and reason. I see (although I don't know) thought and reason to be much more flexible than faith. Just as Qui-Rune is saying, even if he even a little bit right, faith seems to ridge to be taken too seriously."

    It is called a leap of faith. and for a reason. You cannot reason your way out. You have at some point take a leap of faith.
    I hold Love as my ground Zero in all discussions. I have leaped out to Love, and I discover I want to go even farther, I wish to only Love, in wahtever form is possible.



    "'Who are you?'

    Ok, is there any fulfilling unique answer for me?"

    Yes.

    "There are useful answers, and different people are satisfied with different answers, but is there any overall way to say who I am that really defines who I am?"

    It is said that God is beyond words, I believe it is teh same for you and everybody

    "I am not sure why me saying I am agnostic changed everything you thought about me, or your argument, or what, but its cool anyway."

    LOL, When I realized my agnosticism, everything changed. My view of you is pretty much the same either way. [face_laugh]


    "Although the first thing on that list is wrong if you are referring to me. That first line is logical
  11. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Qui-Rune

    To say that people of faith do not think is a bit too extreme in my opinion.

    Yeah, but thinking can make you question and think that faith may be wrong just as much as evidence or proof would.

    I agree that it is extreme, nor am I saying that it is true. Just that it follows from not seeking knowledge relating to faith.

    Does this help you to distinguish Faith and Belief?

    A little bit, but it is making me think that faith is a bad thing and somewhat harmful.

    Darth Dane

    When you find God(Truth - Your truth) on your own, you will be twice as proud, as if someone did it for you.

    But being happy with yourself should not really matter. If the next poster said "here is a proof of my God," and it was a solid firm undeniable proof, I would agree that God exists. Even more so if I could ask questions such as "How did God do XXXXX?" but that would be secondary to whether the proof is right.

    The question can also be brought up what if God shows you the truth? Would that be satisfying? Would God showing you proof null faith (you did get to this later though...).

    Then someone finds teh solution, and starts saying it aloud. But people do not wish to hear, noone should think they have the answer, who do they think they are? More than me? Of royal blood?
    Sure it was easy for Jesus to talk about God, he was spoonfed by God self. Sheesh. Let someone like me(John doe) find teh answer.


    Well, if I found the solution that seemed right, I would ask around (probably post it here and ask Darth Brooks or Bubba the Genius to find every hole and potential problem in it). I would tell people who asked, let them try to understand, try to tear it apart, but I would not force them to hear it. I like to think I listen to anyone who brings up a good point. Some people are simply smarter, faster, luckier... than others. They may figure out something before the rest of us, or may have seen something that made complete convincing sense.

    Heheh, how does your higher conciousness(God - your God) tell you to approach things? With caution? With kindness? With Love? Does it tell you, that you have no way of knowing if something is true?

    It is hard to say that my thoughts tell me to approach things primarily one way. If anything, I would have to say with whatever way gives the best results. Like if you are trying to convince a person to open up to you. You can try to be kind, you can try to be a bad cop, you can be friendly, you can be loud and funny, but I would try which ever I think is best and keep trying until I figure out what works.

    But you trust your feeling that somethings are better to do than others.

    That is because we don't have a choice. I have to eat to stay alive. If I waited until I proved to myself that I am truly alive and important, I would starve to death. (not the best example, but I think it got the point across).

    It is also not so much feelings as it is just what makes sense. I assume that this world is more or less the real world because I have things to do. Again, if I spent all my time trying to figure it out, I would miss out on so much and probably be put in a nice little room.

    Faith enters when teh future is invloved I think. You have some faith that all answers will come it seems.

    I am not sure, but I think that there are answers that can be found if we try. The reason I think that is because there are many different ways of thinking. Because I have figured out a few things that make complete sense to me and no one has effectively argued as wrong (I doubt they are right, but at the same time, I can't say they are wrong). That we do accept things as true and there are reasons. Maybe the answer is no, maybe we will never find them, but I think that they are always there.

    "Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe." St. Augustine

    Do you still have faith after you see? Is it still useful? That quote tells me that faith
  12. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    "But being happy with yourself should not really matter."

    Is all of your actions and your choices, made to make yourself feel good in one way or another?
    You are driven to what you regard as good. Food is good, because it makes me live. Thinking makes me feel good, because I feel lost when I odn't understand. etc.

    "If the next poster said "here is a proof of my God," and it was a solid firm undeniable proof, I would agree that God exists."

    Do make situations you are not in, do you know exactly how you would react? Given that the answer may shake your foundation?

    "Even more so if I could ask questions such as "How did God do XXXXX?" but that would be secondary to whether the proof is right."

    Yes, When you accept God as a reality, you will cease asking questions to which noone can give you an answer. See below.

    "Well, if I found the solution that seemed right, I would ask around (probably post it here and ask Darth Brooks or Bubba the Genius to find every hole and potential problem in it)."

    As I have been doing. I have yet to meet someone that can dismiss my pov. They may have a different basis of belief, but hat is somehwta th epoint of my idea.

    "I would tell people who asked, let them try to understand, try to tear it apart, but I would not force them to hear it."

    Exactly what jesus said. "let those who have ears hear"
    The problem with God. Is that you cannot split God apart. You cannot dissect God.
    "split the wood and I will be there" God is evrywhere but you cannot seperate God from anything.


    "I like to think I listen to anyone who brings up a good point. Some people are simply smarter, faster, luckier... than others. They may figure out something before the rest of us, or may have seen something that made complete convincing sense."

    Yes, maybe you hold teh answer we all have been looking for! Only to find it in ourselves.

    "It is hard to say that my thoughts tell me to approach things primarily one way. If anything, I would have to say with whatever way gives the best results."

    yes, your higher conciousness, tells you; "don't mind so much teh method, as long as you get the correct result" and this commandment you follow.

    "Like if you are trying to convince a person to open up to you. You can try to be kind, you can try to be a bad cop, you can be friendly, you can be loud and funny, but I would try which ever I think is best and keep trying until I figure out what works."

    Yes. I have tried mine, and found that Love is teh best way to get anything done :) [face_love]

    "That is because we don't have a choice. I have to eat to stay alive. If I waited until I proved to myself that I am truly alive and important, I would starve to death. (not the best example, but I think it got the point across)."

    Yes, we are born in bondage(ala Matrix), we can only play along. Know the rules before you break them. Yogi's have said that "action is superior to inaction" This is true, you may talk about getting food, pray for food. but if you don't lift your ass, you won't get it. Act on your good thoughts, think about the bad. What is good and bad thoughts? How can I determine what you consider good or bad?


    "It is also not so much feelings as it is just what makes sense."

    It feels right, right? :p What makes sens feels right [face_love]

    "I assume that this world is more or less the real world because I have things to do. Again, if I spent all my time trying to figure it out, I would miss out on so much and probably be put in a nice little room."

    Yes, thats what those clinics are for. You were born for a reason. Maybe it is to live life? Live life as you see it as being a good life for you. Is it good for you to act nice towards other people? Do you need a God to tell you to behave nicely and share Love?
    I don't.
    Imagine you were given the task of making 10 commandments. You can choose God as a commandment, because you will most likely be excluding someone from the club.
    What would be your most important commandments?
    Ask a child, who have no relation as such to God(i.e. being brain
  13. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Is all of your actions and your choices, made to make yourself feel good in one way or another?
    You are driven to what you regard as good. Food is good, because it makes me live. Thinking makes me feel good, because I feel lost when I odn't understand. etc.


    Maybe when you get down to it, yeah.

    Do make situations you are not in, do you know exactly how you would react? Given that the answer may shake your foundation?

    Look, if someone proved god literally existed, and the proof was as convincing as the concept behind 1+1=2, it would be absurd not to accept it. Yeah, I may not want to, but I would be choosing not to think (which in my mind is stupidity) if I didn't accept it.

    Yes, When you accept God as a reality, you will cease asking questions to which noone can give you an answer.

    Then faith does not give understanding. If I wanted to ask 'How did God make the world?' faith would not give me an answer. You are saying that I cannot find an answer, so I will look elsewhere to find the answer.

    As I have been doing. I have yet to meet someone that can dismiss my pov. They may have a different basis of belief, but hat is somehwta th epoint of my idea.

    Yes, like you are doing. I hope I don't sound like I am dismissing your POV, just asking questions about it.

    Exactly what jesus said. "let those who have ears hear"
    The problem with God. Is that you cannot split God apart. You cannot dissect God.
    "split the wood and I will be there" God is evrywhere but you cannot seperate God from anything.


    Yet God sends you to hell for not listening? So we can chose not to listen, but if we understood the situation fully, we all would listen.

    Yes, maybe you hold teh answer we all have been looking for! Only to find it in ourselves.

    Can God show us the answers?

    yes, your higher conciousness, tells you; "don't mind so much teh method, as long as you get the correct result" and this commandment you follow.

    So that is my individual faith? I still feel a tad lost. Is faith that I believe that is true? Is the concept that the correct method is the correct method faith? That I act on it shows that I have faith?

    I did realize this before, but what I said is somewhat saying that the ends justify the means. It does not matter too much in this case since we are not debating morals. However, the methods that I use to try to understand the world should not go against what I have already figured out, even if I have not figured out much.

    Yes. I have tried mine, and found that Love is teh best way to get anything done

    Unfortunately I have found that although love goes a long way, there are situations where love is not enough. Love is though I think the best way to get things done, but I have found that it does not always work.

    Yes, we are born in bondage(ala Matrix), we can only play along. Know the rules before you break them. Yogi's have said that "action is superior to inaction" This is true, you may talk about getting food, pray for food. but if you don't lift your ass, you won't get it. Act on your good thoughts, think about the bad. What is good and bad thoughts? How can I determine what you consider good or bad?

    It feels right, right? What makes sens feels right

    Actually what makes sense is probably right (as right as it can be). It makes sense that Luke is Anakin?s son in Star Wars, and that is as absolutely right as it can be. So many things are just human definition, and can only be as right as human definitions.

    Yes, thats what those clinics are for. You were born for a reason. Maybe it is to live life? Live life as you see it as being a good life for you. Is it good for you to act nice towards other people? Do you need a God to tell you to behave nicely and share Love?
    I don't.


    Good, I don't either.

    What would be your most important commandments?

    Well, see the moral degradation in today?s society made by Darth Mischievous. It sort of died with me giving my defi
  14. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    "Maybe when you get down to it, yeah."

    Interesting

    "Then faith does not give understanding. If I wanted to ask 'How did God make the world?' faith would not give me an answer."

    Faith doens't give you the answer, unless your faith is that you will receive the answer. But faith in and of itrself is not the answer.

    "You are saying that I cannot find an answer, so I will look elsewhere to find the answer."

    No I am saying that only You can give the answer you are looking for.

    "Yes, like you are doing. I hope I don't sound like I am dismissing your POV, just asking questions about it."

    ask all you wish :)

    "Yet God sends you to hell for not listening? So we can chose not to listen, but if we understood the situation fully, we all would listen.

    I don't know if God sends you to hell. I don't believe so. My God is Love, and Love does not send you to what you believe hell is. Not unless you ask for it.

    So that is my individual faith? I still feel a tad lost. Is faith that I believe that is true? Is the concept that the correct method is the correct method faith? That I act on it shows that I have faith?

    Your actions, your words and your thoughts is what you have faith in. You will not do anything unless your God(higher conciosuness) says it is ok.

    I did realize this before, but what I said is somewhat saying that the ends justify the means. It does not matter too much in this case since we are not debating morals. However, the methods that I use to try to understand the world should not go against what I have already figured out, even if I have not figured out much.

    Why? because they are your foundation?
    Don't build a house on a faulty base. If the base you have is faulty, given new discoveries. Should you try to patch the old, or make a new?

    Unfortunately I have found that although love goes a long way, there are situations where love is not enough. Love is though I think the best way to get things done, but I have found that it does not always work. Maybe not all was interested in using Love as the problem solver.

    So many things are just human definition, and can only be as right as human definitions. That sounds just about right :) ;) And you say you don't know God? :p


    "Yeah, but they don't seem to be false." No evidence have swayed you basic belief tennet. It may never come

    There can still be truth in the older theory.

    Of course, thats how we develop new technology.

    "Fine, you see a bathtub with water, then an ocean. Do you still need faith that water exists given you now know it exists? Even after he sees the ocean, is faith in water's existence still needed? "

    Yes, if you close your eyes, you have fgaith that it will be there when you open them again. The more you try it, the more you are sure. Just like the sun setting and rising

    How can I experience the creation of the world? Or the all powerful nature of God?

    Become one with your God. many techniques are available

    If good and bad are nothing more than human defined concepts, then depending how we defined good or bad, we could say if it is or not. Even if good and bad are more than human defined concepts, we may still be able to define them another way, and say if that situation is good or not. We should at least try.

    And humans try all the can.

    We can get into the debate over did God make wisdom, or is God telling us what is wise, or are they the same thing, or what not. Bubba argued pretty well that point I think in this thread.

    God is wisdom, telling us what is wise, trhough the mind we have.

    Although I understand the point you are trying to make, can you find understanding in religion or faith?

    I have found understanding in religious texts, not religion for teh masses.

    Keep trying. Don't give up! You can still accept it, and the fact that it works is evidence that love is right.

    I never intend to give up. Love is just the guiding light I use for wisdom. Wisdom wit
  15. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Faith doens't give you the answer, unless your faith is that you will receive the answer. But faith in and of itrself is not the answer.

    Which is why I will not accept any mainstream religion that I know of. If taken literally, none of them offer understanding of things that happened, and I don't want to start to pick and chose what parts of what ever religion I accept as true. Maybe understanding to the extent I would like is pointless, especially where big religions are concerned, but that does not change the fact about me that I want to understand.

    No I am saying that only You can give the answer you are looking for.

    Well, others can help. I was arguing a point on the AOTC or E3 message board, and someone brought up a good point about my idea showing that I was wrong and they were right. Others can help.

    I don't know if God sends you to hell. I don't believe so. My God is Love, and Love does not send you to what you believe hell is. Not unless you ask for it.

    I was referring to main stream religions. You have seemed to make your own belief structure, and that is commendable. However, I have been mostly arguing against the big religions.

    Your actions, your words and your thoughts is what you have faith in. You will not do anything unless your God(higher conciosuness) says it is ok.

    That to me is not answering the question, or I am not getting it (a very likely possibility). I have faith in my actions, words, thoughts... but what is faith. Is faith why I believe those things? Is there a reason for having faith? Is it rational or necessary or something else?

    I did realize this before, but what I said is somewhat saying that the ends justify the means. It does not matter too much in this case since we are not debating morals. However, the methods that I use to try to understand the world should not go against what I have already figured out, even if I have not figured out much.

    Why? because they are your foundation?
    Don't build a house on a faulty base. If the base you have is faulty, given new discoveries. Should you try to patch the old, or make a new?


    Well, the whole ends justifying the means thing has more to do with morals than anything else. Just didn't want someone asking me about morals and bringing up that point.

    Again, as long as whatever ideas and thoughts understand the world around us works, it would pretty much include how we got those ideas and thoughts.

    That sounds just about right :) ;) And you say you don't know God?:p

    So is God simply a human definition (that may have been mis-defined), or is he something beyond human definition?

    Yes, if you close your eyes, you have fgaith that it will be there when you open them again. The more you try it, the more you are sure. Just like the sun setting and rising

    But we know in this example that the water does exist. Even if we stop observing the water, we know that it existed and we can reaffirm out knowledge (not belief) that water exists.

    What is the difference between knowing something and believing something? I know water exists once I see the tub and ocean. Before that, people may have told me about water, but to accept it as true, I would be believing it. What is that subtle difference between knowing something and believing something?


    And the next few questions were again directed to a more mainstream religion.


    I never intend to give up. Love is just the guiding light I use for wisdom. Wisdom without Love is not my cup of understanding

    Good.

    When you Love a woman or man, can you fully understand it, or do you just know, that it is right?

    Ohh, that fine line between knowledge and belief again. Do you know or just believe...?

    It is the nature of humans to keep asking questions.

    But, I have asked some people how God made the earth and they told me it was only important that he did. Those :mad:

    Maybe it would be smarter to act on it, instead of prooving it. Maybe the act alone is teh p
  16. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    A long time ago, I was once faithful to the Chrisitan way, but now that I am older, I don't hold much faith in the Chrisitan way. Does that mean when I die, if there is an afterlife, I will burn in hell for being unfaithful? Could some answer this for me please.
  17. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    The fundamentalist religion I was raised with (and no longer believe) taught that it was possible to be saved and turn away from your faith; if that's the case, you would still go to heaven but would not have the joy that comes with serving God during your life. However, if you've turned away, it's possible you never truly believed and were saved - in which case, your soul would be lost. Simply following Christian rules of morality, obeying the Ten Commandments, etc., is not enough to ensure your place in heaven. Believing that God and Jesus exist is not enough (even the devil believes this). You can only be saved by Jesus' working in your heart, showing you that he died for your sins.

    If you want a more accurate and personal answer, search your faith, your Bible, and your heart.
  18. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Are you still part of that faith, womberty? ?[face_plain] Some of your posts around here seem to contradict what the Bible says. I would be interested to hear what all you believe if you ever have the time. :)


    And Jedi_Learner, it's not about religion. Not about what you believe in your mind, not about what church you go to, or what days you celebrate.


    It's a little more on the personal level. ;)
  19. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Are you still part of that faith, womberty?

    No, I'm not part of that faith, or any faith now. I now consider myself an apathetic agnostic - I don't know whether there's a God, and I really don't care.

    That being said, I hold a certain respect for people who actually follow what their religions teach. It isn't easy. What I dislike is the semi-religious people who think it's the government's responsibility to uphold their religion for them. If you believe in something, you should stand up for it yourself and live your life by those beliefs.

    I think if more Christians held true to Jesus' teachings, we'd have less problems with religion in public life. I fully support your right to believe anything you want. I'll even support your right to communicate your beliefs to others through your own actions and words, and through representatives of your church. What bothers me is people who insist we are a Christian nation but only go to church on Easter and Christmas, who kick up a fuss when we question the placement of "In God We Trust" on our money but don't actually trust God, and who insist that we teach their children that we are one nation under God so they won't have to.

    My view on it is, you have a right to exercise your religion, but it is your responsibility to do so. Too many people are lazy when it comes to their faith; they want the rest of us to go along with institutionalizing their religion so they won't feel the need to actually demonstrate their faith. If this was truly a Christian nation, the world would see it in the way we live and deal with others - instead of on our money, in our motto, and in our pledge.


    Some of your posts around here seem to contradict what the Bible says.

    I do not live my life by the Bible. However, I find it interesting when people who claim to be Christian don't really live according to the Bible either. It's also sad to see people who call themselves Christian but don't know much about what's in the Bible - their religion is more about tradition than doctrine. And I don't see any problem with telling people when I think they're wrong about what it teaches - I actually have a lot more respect for people who search the scriptures for their instruction than those who are casually Christian.


    EDIT:
    Just out of curiousity, what have I said that you think contradicts the Bible? If it's my position on religion in government, I'd be happy to debate it in the Separation of Church and State thread. I don't think you have to have religion in government to still live a Christian life. :)

    Or, if it's something else, let me know - we can debate it further in the relevant thread. ;)
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well, I was mainly referring to your posts in the homosexuality thread. ;) But I have noticed other things in some of the more political threads.


    And I'd be happy to debate those things with ya. :D
  21. Vaders_leash Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Merits of religion can include the Golden Rule. I have seen this one being practiced so long as other people agree with the Christian.

    Another merit of religion is cherity, which the Salvation Army practices during the Christmas holiday season.

    I'm going to stop for now and see if I've offended any Christians so far. They are very easily offended at bashing.
  22. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well, here's my two cents:

    I will agree that most religions promote good values and "quote" teach "unquote" how one should live their lives in a proper manner.

    But, I do not see the need to believe in supernatual beings in order to get these messages out to the public.

    The only reason I can see putting a "god" into the equation is to scare those who do not follow these "rules."

    It is no different than contemporary penalties if one is to break the law, except, religion makes people believe that they will be punished by a greater force than man.

    Again, I don't see the need to put a fictional character into the role of judge and jury.

    My God!
    Smith will suffice.
    :D
  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Merits of religion can include the Golden Rule. I have seen this one being practiced so long as other people agree with the Christian.


    That's a bit one-sided. True Christians practice that regardless of whether people agree with them.
  24. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    While it may be a bit one sided, I thought I would look up the golden rule, and here is a list of religions/beliefs that "follow" the golden rule: (I just thought I would show how many others follow such a doctrine/rule)

    The Golden Rule
    The Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is found in the scriptures of nearly every religion. It is often regarded as the most concise and general principle of ethics. It is a condensation in one principle of all longer lists of ordinances such as the Decalogue.

    Bahá'í Faith
    And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself.
    _Epistle to the Son of the Wolf_, 30

    Hindu Faith
    This is the sum of duty: do naught to others which if done to thee would cause thee pain.
    The Mahabharata

    Jewish Faith
    What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
    The Talmud

    Zoroastrian Faith
    Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others.
    Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

    Buddhist Faith
    Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.
    Udana-Varga

    Christian Faith
    All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
    The Gospel of Matthew Matt 7:12, Luke 6:31

    Muslim Faith
    No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
    Hadith

    And yet some other sources:
    Do not do unto others what angers you if done to you by others.
    Isocrates 436-338 BCE

    An it harm none, do what thou wilt.
    Wiccan Rede

    Tzu-kung asked, 'Is there a single word which can be a guide to conduct throughout one's life?' The Master said, 'It is perhaps the word shu. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'
    Analects, 15.24

    Refraining from doing what we blame in others.
    By Thales
    As quoted in Diogenes Laertius, vol I, page 39
    {submitted by Gaylen Bunker}

    Christianity: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Summations by the author of this article did not include the following comparable statement of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, King James version, which says a bit more that what the author is representing under Christianity
    It is found in the book of Matthew, Chapter 7 verse 12, and says
    Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    Judaism and Christianity. Bible, Leviticus 19.18

    Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
    Christianity. Bible, Matthew 7.12

    Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.
    Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

    A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated.
    Jainism. Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

    Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence.
    Confucianism. Mencius VII.A.4

    One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due to selfish desire.
    Hinduism. Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8

    Tsekung asked, Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life? Confucius replied, It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.
    Confucianism. Analects 15.23

    Leviticus 19.18: Quoted by Jesus in Matthew 22.36-40. Mencius VII.A.4 and Analects 15.23: Cf. Analects 6.28.2, p. 975.

    Comparing oneself to others in such terms as Just as I am so are they, just as they are so am I, he should neither kill nor cause others to kill.
    Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 705

    One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts.
    African Traditional Religions. Yoruba Proverb (Nigeria)

    One who you think should be hit is none else but you. One who you think should be governed is none else bu
  25. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Smith:

    One's assertion that God is a "fictional character" is, to put it mildly, a bit presumptuous.

    At any rate, your list can be subdivided into two camps, one that says to avoid doing harm and the other that says to actively do good.

    "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others," is a bit different from actively treating others the way you'd like to be treated.



    And Leash, bashing is one thing: unfair bashing without anything backing it up is a tad hard to swallow.

    (And "charity" is traditionally defined as more than mere almsgiving. It is itself the active love for one's neighbors, in all its manifested words and deeds.)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.