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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate The Middle East Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    I'm not usually one to side with hawks, but the author of this article makes a valid point: the tepid international response to the Syrian government's latest wave of indiscriminate bombings in Ghouta the past two weeks signals that the government can do all the mass killing it wants as long as it doesn't use sarin gas to do it.

    The shamelessness required for frowning upon the Assad government doing this while our Saudi allies are doing the same in Yemen with our help and support, however, is another matter. Though, the Trump administration should have no problem meeting that requirement.
     
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  2. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Syrians, Yemenis and Rohingya people are all learning a very, very tragic lesson:

    The world doesn't give a ****. It might give pretty speeches now and then, but it has no intention of doing anything about mass slaughter.
     
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    So, of all things, it looks like the Trump administration exacerbating the whole Saudi/UAE vs. Qatar/GCC thing was possibly because of a friggin' shakedown for Kushner...

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics...nce-to-a-key-claim-of-the-steele-dossier.html

    Also, ties back to laundering money for the proposed allegations of the Trump administrations benefiting from the Rosneft oil sale in Russia (through Qatar)...
     
  4. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    What a surprise...
     
  5. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
  6. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Very good piece.

    Some of the same events from a different perspective that is also quite illuminating in its own way.

    And yet more insight into the efficacy of the Stuxnet virus effort that was happening at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  7. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    After Obama bent over completely backwards to appease Netanyahu, this is how he repays the favor. What an ungrateful viper. We should jettison Israel from our list of allies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  8. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    I recommend yesterday's episode of WBEZ Chicago's Worldview podcast, which was exclusively about the Middle East; the first half about recent events in Saudi Arabia related to Mohammad bin Salman's rise to power and the second half about Israel, featuring an interview with Stav Shaffir, a rising young star in the Israeli Labour party.
     
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  9. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    There is a lot of talk of Turkey planning to annex Afrin.
     
  10. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    And they're jailing anyone inside Turkey who publicly criticises or questions the war effort.
     
  11. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I read that this morning; Erdogan is getting more authoritarian each passing week.

    The question remains, what will the US do? I suspect, given their current track record in the Middle East, the Kurds will be abandoned (again) by the United States.
     
  12. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    While viscerally satisfying, this would actually be a poor long-term strategy. Whenever Israel has perceived itself as isolated, it has tended to become more aggressive and conservative. Dumping them as an ally would likely increase the chances of Netanyahu taking some sort of unilateral action if threatened. And the US would be forced to support them—with Republicans in power at all levels, not doing so (or dumping them in the first place), would be political suicide with the evangelical base.

    Best shot we had at reigning in Israel was with Obama, who was ultimately proven powerless to do the one thing that would have changed Israel’s behavior: end financial and military support. And even if he’d tried, the Defense establishment would have been against it; for all their flaws under Netanyahu, Israel still provides valuable intelligence on the Middle East to the US. So as much as that angers me, American grabbing Israel by the nads just doesn’t seem plausible (it certainly won’t happen under the Trump regime). There are simply too many entangled mutual interests, at least for now.

    If Israel were to unilaterally attack Iran, however...
     
  13. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    I don't think there's any question that the US would come to their aid in that scenario. And I assume more than half the country would wholeheartedly support it.
     
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  14. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    @Vaderize03

    President Bush Snr was the one to reign in Israel. Froze all aid until they sat down with the Palestinians at the Madrid Conference and we came damn close to peace - until Bill Clinton decided to align himself with the pro-Israel lobby.

    As for unilateral attack on Iran..

    The Pentagon explicitly told Bibi Israel would be on its own - if they started a war with Iran. US would defend against an invasion (which Iran isn't crazy enough to do) or massive air attack, but the US will not partake in any counter-attack.

    Beijing gets a lot of oil from Iran and Uncle Sam isn't crazy enough to risk upsetting China.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  15. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    To be fair, it wasn’t just Bill Clinton—the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin did more to scuttle peace than Clinton’s bad politicking. But certainly, his actions didn’t help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  16. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Rabin authorised the use of violence on demonstrators during the First Intifada. Children were beaten and had their bones deliberately broken as punishment. The IDF killed nearly 1,500 in those six years.

    He is no hero.

    Still. Clinton ****ed Madrid with the public statement of "I would never subject Israel to this punishment"
     
  17. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 25, 1999
    I didn’t say Rabin was an angel—far from it. But neither was Arafat, and for a time, the two of them were closer to peace than any leaders were before, or have been since.

    Despite where things are, past doesn’t necessarily have to be prologue. Things are bleak now, but maybe the pendulum will swing again.

    Stranger things have happened.
     
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  18. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    When your little brother keeps picking fights with the neighbourhood, you tell him that the next time he's on his own, but you inevitably end up helping him next time too, because he's your brother. A banal comparison, maybe, but IMO it would be political suicide for a president from either party to not support Israel in a fight against the mutual arch nemesis of both countries, even if Israel starts it. It's the kind of scenario that significantly large constituencies would perhaps not support starting, but they like the idea enough that if it has already started anyway, they'll immediately get behind it.
     
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  19. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    That is most likely true, but the consequences for the Unites States, as a whole, would be far worse if it decided to join a war against Iran. Even though the US is disliked in many parts of the Middle East, this could potentially take it to an entirely different level. Israel and Saudi Arabia have a very unique relationship and, both of them, are far more disruptive to the wider region than Iran.
     
  20. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Pro-Kurdish demonstrators have shut down two major train stations in the UK over Turkish ethnic cleansing in Afrin.
     
  21. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Okay. This is serious.

    Someone just tried to assassinate the Palestinian PM in Gaza.
     
  22. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Is it the new SecState of the US?
     
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  23. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    The new SecState...?
    *checks Google*
    [face_hypnotized]
     
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  24. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    The Turkish army have captured Afrin and raised their flag over the city.

    Kurds have been forced out; Kurdish symbols of their culture are currently being destroyed by Turkish forces.
     
  25. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Sadly, all the opposition parties in the Turkish parliament except the Kurd-friendly HDP is gung-ho behind the government in this, either out of genuine agreement or for not wanting to look weak. And HDP is accused of only opposing it because of their Kurdish constituency, in other words putting into question the loyalty to the Turkish state of both the party and their voters.

    Recently, a group of doctors wrote an opinion article in the country's largest independent newspaper, Cumhuriyet, in opposition to the war. To avoid censorship, they avoided the political merits or flaws of the effort altogether, and instead wrote a medical argument for why war is bad for health as it can cause symptoms of no longer being alive. For this grave offence to logic, they were jailed. I'm pleased to report that the Turkish medical association stepped up to campaign for their release, and were successful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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