PT {+The Misconception Of The JEDI ORDER+}

In the end, the disbelief and cepticism of some doesn't affect the decision of the Council to investigate either way. That's a perfect example where the arrogance of some doesn't affect the decisions of the Order.

What does that got to do with it? They decide to investigate, and since they learn later that Amidala intends to return, they assign the investigation to a Jedi Master that has the best odds to face him again.

They did handle it. And who said it required more people? Who said they had more people to send? That's grasping at straws and not what the point is about: they didn't act on the arrogance of some.

Who said the plan was to show up, ignite their sabers and win the day? They didn't know the full extent of what was happening of Geonosis, that's why Yoda went there with the army. To prevent a full scale war.

He did handle it. So much so that Dooku had to flee.

Yes, we've established that some Jedi are arrogant. Once again, Obi-Wan doesn't end his investigation because of Jocasta's arrogance, therefore proving my point.

I don't recall the movie establishing any information about the house where she ends up staying. It looked like a remote place in the middle of nowhere. And during their stay nobody went there. Not sure what's your argument ehre.

And despite Obi-Wan's disbelief, the Jedi decide to keep a close eye on the senate either way. Another instance where my point is proven.

He ended up handling Palpatine. It was Anakin who didn't follow his orders and went there.

As pointed out above, that's certainly not true.

The answer is simple: not being arrogant. That's why their decisions are not based on it.

 

If only the world were that simple. Luke: "How do I not become an agent of evil?" Yoda: "By not being bad, but good. We don't base our decisions on bad thoughts".

If that were truly the extent of Jedi wisdom, it's no wonder they went almost extinct.

 

It is. A Jedi doesn't act on arrogance, fear, and a bunch of other things. It's what it is.

False analogy.

Are you implying it was their ways that got them extinct? I thought Revenge of the Sith made it pretty clear what destroyed them (hint: a Jedi who did not follow their ways).

 

To be a Jedi, you first have to become a Jedi. There's more to a philosophy, than setting a view rules, and guide lines. These rules mean nothing, if there are no adequate ways to teach prospective Jedi how to apply these rules in practise, and how to deal with tempation. If many Jedi display arrogance, they apparently didn't spend enough time educating them on the potential consequences of arrogance.

 

They did, which is why Dorme was left behind with Captain Typho, to fool the assassin into thinking she was still on Coruscant and Anakin was assigned to protect her. She, in turn, chose the lake house since it was remote and a place she felt comfortable. The Council didn't know she was going to the lake house. They assumed that she would be stay in the palace with all the security and Anakin.

Arrogance is something that people don't realize that they've become until it is too late. Arrogance is born from confidence. If one is too confident in their abilities, arrogance will soon take a hold. Anakin was confident in his abilities which is why when failure reared its ugly head, it nearly broke him and resulted in his doing terrible things. He was too arrogant for his own good. So when he decides to improve his abilities, he gained a new level of arrogance. And from that arrogance began his fall from grace.

As to dealing with temptation, the only way to deal with it is if the Jedi learns to recognize the temptation and learns to let go of the things that are dragging them down. It has to be self taught discipline. As Kanan said, he had to teach Ezra the best that he could and hope that he takes the right path. Once he admitted that to himself, he was able to become a Knight. That's why Lucas took Obi-wan and Yoda out of the confrontation with Vader and Palpatine in ROTJ. If they're there to remind Luke of the dark side, then there is no danger in Luke falling. He has to figure it out on his own without their help.

 

I agree that some fans rag on the Jedi too much.

Though Palpatine DOES use the word "dogmatic" in ROTS when tempting Anakin to leave the Order so it's not a complete fan-creation.

From what I can remember in interviews from the PT era, Lucas always just said Anakin was greedy. No "the Jedi are evil!" stuff.

The Jedi will always be the heroes of these films. What good are characters if they don't have any flaws?

Look at all the articles floating around calling the Rebellion just as bad as the Empire, though. Folks just wanna sell more drama and stakes for the heck of it and shock value.

 

I always see this as a criticism of the PT characters in general. The human flaws they have make them "weak." Padme, for example, is considered this in ROTS. I disagree because it takes more for any character to be good or interesting just because they spit some snarky lines and rack up a bodycount.

 

For me it's always been a pleasure getting to sort of see how diverse the Jedi Order really is.

You sort of have Qui-Gon on one end of the spectrum, with Mace Windu on the other. Then Yoda/Obi-Wan are the supposed "moderates."

I WANT to say Obi-Wan leans more towards the Qui-Gon/Anakin spectrum just because of his close relationship to both but we also see how harsh and confrontational he can be to both throughout the trilogy.

And then I also want to say Yoda will always take Mace's conventional/traditional side, but darn it did he put up with a lot of Anakin and Qui-Gon when maybe he shouldn't have.

It's not as cut and dry. There is a spectrum there.

 

Palpatine's machinations are always factored into appreciating the Jedi order's performance. The order's reason for existing, however, seemed to have included anticipating, preparing for and delivering on the destruction of the Sith and bringing the force into balance (presumed to be a good thing for the galaxy, whatever it is).

The fact that the Jedi, as an institution, failed to prevent Palpatine from doing what he did should prompt any reasonable person to examine or reexamine the order's relationship with it's doctrine or its dogma (which they do have). It doesn't demonise them or make them bad. It just recognizes that they were fallible like just about every institution you might care to mention, no matter how well intentioned they are.

The Jedi are people after all. It's no scandal that they say that the Force should never be used for attack or aggression. And yet Yoda is an extremely aggressive combatant. He makes the first move in the saber duel with Dooku, letting out a ferocious battle cry as he does. That's not demonizing him either though. But when you consider that the doctrine is unequivocal and Yoda is a sort of figurehead for this philosophy, then it's not too hard to appreciate the dissonance between deed and dogma that others might observe and try to either exploit or use to justify their own transgressions.


I think skepticism about the Jedi order is far healthier than simply pointing at their dogma and refusing to entertain a reproach of how they acted on their beliefs, considering that their beliefs and how they acted on them turned out catastrophically for the order just because one Jedi failed to live up to their code in one respect.

If the galaxy could be thrown into darkness and tyranny for a whole generation because, in large part, of the tension created by their attitude toward "attachment" then maybe a more flexible, non-dogmatic approach might have precluded that tension arising in the first place.

Then the Jedi presumed that the assassin was stupid enough to fall for the same ruse twice.

 

The knee-jerk reaction to reject what you are told is a sign of arrogance to me.
It shows that you have a view of the world and when something conflicts with that, it is at first rejected. Them being told the Sith were back, that Dooku might have been behind the attempt on Padme, Obi-Wan being told that a Sith runs the senate.
The first reaction of the Jedi is rejection, they declare it impossible.

Not unlike the TF guy at the end of TPM that says "Impossible, nothing can get through our shields."
Or that imperial officer in the DS conference that said "Dangerous to your star fleet commander, not to this battle station." And he also dismissed any rebel attack as a useless gesture.

To me it shows that the Jedi are confident in them being able to sense the sith at all times so they at first reject the idea that their senses are not as perfect as they think.
They can eventually overcome this and act but this resistance is there.

Let's see, Naboo is blockaded by a fleet of warships, occupied by a big, battle hardened droid army and plus they have a possible sith lord to deal with.
So find the sith and protect Padme from all that.
Most would think that two Jedi, one of whom is not even a knight, might be in over their heads.
But the Jedi are overconfident in their abilities or underestimate the sith so don't send more.

We see other Jedi on Coruscant and we are never told that any of them are required elsewhere so nothing suggest they couldn't send more people. And given that they said they would use ALL their resources on this would also suggest that they would spare no effort.
But ALL resources is apparently one master and one padawan.

And how exactly did they handle it?
Maul died so they were not able to question him in any way.
All they did learn is that he really was a sith. How they learned that is not explained. He never said anything, that he could use the Force, had a red lightsaber and was skilled enough to fight a jedi master, that they already knew.
But they get nothing else, his name, where he is from, who he works with, or anything.

We see the plan and that was all they apparently planned.
Mace called on Dooku to surrender so he apparently didn't expect a fight.

As for what they knew, they knew that a big droid army had been made there and the TF were there to pick it up. So they knew that they could expect massive resistance.
Plus they knew that Obi-Wan had been attacked when sending a signal so the Geonosians would know that a spy was caught on their planet and that he sent a signal. So unless the Jedi are morons, they would suspect that the Geonosians would be on alert.
So being a bit more prepared would not hurt and not use a brain dead tactic consisting off jumping down into a arena and charge a vastly superior force.
End result, the Jedi got decimated

Wrong!
The goal, as stated by Yoda himself, was to PREVENT Dooku from escaping.
Dooku did escape so Yoda FAILED.

Stopping Dooku from fleeing was crucial and yet neither Obi-Wan or Anakin nor Yoda thought to call for reinforcements in case they could not handle the situation.
They overestimated their own powers or underestimated Dooku's. Either way, they failed to stop him from leaving and the war spread.
Had they killed or captured him, it is likely that the war would be over before it started.

It is still a sign of an arrogance firmly seated in the Jedi order.
"If we don't know it, it can't exist."
"The sith can't be back, we would sense it."
"The sith can't be in the senate, we would know it."

That some Jedi persevere despite that and keep going doesn't mean that this arrogance isn't there.
Not all Jedi are this arrogant no, but some are and to me, they seem to be in the majority.
Qui-Gon was an outsider and he was more open to new ideas.

The order seemed a bit rigid, set in their way and had an air of being close minded.

Other ex, take the fact that Kamino was erased from their files.
That thought was apparently so alien to Obi-Wan that he couldn't imagine it and he needed a kid to tell him the bleeding obvious.
And again, he reacted with disbelief that this could have happened.

Padme mentions that she had been in that house before when she was younger so it certainly is implied that her family owns that house.

That no one went there is beside the point, the Jedi could not have know that the assassin would give up. They sent her away from Coruscant to protect her. But if the assassin finds out and goes looking for her, having her live on her home planet and in a house owned by her family, that is not smart. When the cops take people into protective custody, they generally don't have them live in their parents or best friends house because that is the first place an assassin might look.

See above, the Jedi's first impulse tend to be rejection of facts that don't fit their world view.

What would have happened if Anakin had not shown up is open for discussion.
There is a recent thread that says that Palpatine threw the fight.

In any event, Mace is still being arrogant or stupid.
He and his three goons go to arrest Palpatine. If they fail in any way, the rest of the Jedi are in terrible danger.
Does he think to prepare for that possibility and warn the others?
Nope.
Does he contact Yoda and talk over a plan, again no.
He just charges in, totally confident that Palpatine would be a push over.
And Anakin even warned him that Palpatine was powerful but he ignored that.

[/QUOTE]

To me, they came across a arrogant at times and also clueless and rather cold and uncaring.
There were some exceptions, Qui-Gon had some warm scenes with Shmi.

But overall, they did not come across as a competent opponent to Sidious so that he beat them didn't make him look impressive. It just made the Jedi look weak and stupid.
Also I didn't much care for many of the Jedi as they came across a cold or indifferent and rather uninteresting. Thus when they all die, the drama was reduced for me because I wasn't very invested in them.
RO did a better job in making me care about the rebels going to steal the plans and so their deaths had more of an impact.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes, it is. Again, it's been established and stated in the movies that some Jedi are arrongant.

"Even the older, more experienced ones."

Some Jedi. Not 'the Jedi'.

The point is that they don't act on the arrogance of some, which is what I've been saying all along.

No. Protect Amidala (which is what's been doing from the start) and discover the identity of the warrior that will eventually appear. As Qui-Gon states himself, he's not there to fight a war for her.

Why?

They didn't need more.

Actually, we don't see any Jedi on Coruscant with the exception of the Council. And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we aren't told they are required elsewhere, doesn't mean they aren't.

Using all their resources implies available resources as opposed to unavailable ones.

As you very well know, that was before they learned that Amidala was going to return (something that would likely draw out the dark warrior). One master and one padawan (deemed ready to be a knight by his own master) is deemed enough to face said warrior.

They discovered that he was indeed a Sith, which is what was in question and all they would probably get from him.

We don't need to learn how they know that he was a Sith anymore than we need to know how they know what a Sith is. It's established that they know what a Sith is and wether they've seen the body or recordings, they were able to confirm it.

It's not like Maul himself would give him any more information. They weren't able to get that from the Trade Federation guys. Why would the very person that was devoted to the cause would say anything?

I didn't.

Not necessarily. Those aren't mutually exclusive. He gave him the option to surrender, as a Jedi should. Doesn't mean he expected to.

Being made =/= ready, but yes, they probably expected massive resistance anyway. Hence Yoda and the army being there.

As Mace says to Dooku, they aren't really outnumbered. Mace knows who's coming.

That's Revenge of the Sith.

He failed to capture him, not to handle him.

Anakin and Yoda went with reinforcements. As for Yoda, I trust that knew more about the available reinforcements he had than either of us.

There's no evidence that they overestimated their own powers. You are the one assuming they didn't do what they could, when the fact is that we don't know if that's true or not.

Again, that some Jedi are arrogant is not and never was in question. It's even stated in the movies. Nobody is arguing that. That's a strawman.

It means that despite the arrogance of some, the Order doesn't let it affect their decisions and judgement.

No evidence of that though.

I don't share that perception.

The obvious? To whom? He's a Jedi. He knows how the Order works. He has way more reasons to not make that assumption than we, the audience.

It's precisely because it's something hard to believe that Dooku did it.

There are many alternatives that don't necessarily imply that.

No, it isn't. You argued that the house was an "obvious place". But the events of the movie don't support that obviousness.

Some Jedi. Not "the Jedi". And they (again) don't act on the arrogance of some.

Mace would have either taken him or killed him.

We'll never know.

Anakin is at the Temple. He knows the truth.

Talk over a plan? They barely have any time to act. They know that he knows they know the truth. And he didn't ignore him. Anakin said he would need him there and he told him to stay in the Temple. Mace didn't need him there.

Can't change your perception nor was any of that what the argument was about.

I don't compare apples and oranges.

 

While I don't consider the Jedi evil, nor do I think they all should have been wiped out, i do feel they were seriously flawed towards the end, and changes needed to be made. I'm going to end up repeating points that were already made, but they're necessary to explain my viewpoint:

As early as TPM, we see chinks in the armor, disagreements about everything from training to philosophies to prophecies.

- Obi-Wan: "It's something elsewhere ... elusive."
Qui-gon: "Don't center on your anxieties Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
Obi-Wan : "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
Qui-Gon: " But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan."

...the first observance of disagreement between Qui-Gon and what the elder Jedi believe. We, of course, see more. When Qui-Gon reveals that he believes he was attacked by a Sith Lord, he is completely dismissed by Ki-Adi Mundi who proclaims it impossible, while Mace is less rigid but still disbelieving. It's interesting to me that Qui-Gon is brushed off like this. Is it because of the conflicts Qui-Gon has had with the Council? Or is it as Mace says - they simply don't believe the Sith could have returned without them knowing it?

I was personally a little shocked by Obi-Wan in this, openly contradicting his Master, his thinking and beliefs that Jar Jar and Anakin are "pathetic life forms" seems especially mean and cruel. Hell, he tells Qui-Gon that Anakin is dangerous, while Anakin is standing right there in earshot range of the conversation! No wonder anakin has an adversarial relationship with Kenobi right from the start!

There seems to be a disconnect between the Council and some of the Knights. I made mention in another thread that I felt by this point the Order was more concerned about following the Will of the Republic, rather than the Will of the Force. It seemed quite obvious that the Order broke one of it's own rules - it became attached to the Republic. And by doing so, became attached to it's rules, it's procedures. They need permission from the Senate to go on some missions?

This ties in with the Clone Wars to me. The Jedi should NOT have fought in it. They should have stayed neutral. the Republic had an army. The CIS had an army. The Jedi did not, and as champions of peace, should have allowed Galactic events to transpire as the Force willed it. but of course that wasn't going to happen, because the order was in bed with the Republic, and was more than willing to accept all the perks that came with it. To me,this was the ultimate flaw, the ultimate downfall of the Jedi Order. They were tied to the Republic and everything that happened to it, rather than worrying about matters of the Force, it seemed their main focus was worrying about matters of the Republic. And once matters of the Republic were being decided by the Sith,it was only a matter of time until both would fall.

That's another thing - it was stated in many novels,cartoons, and even the movies that "The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor". ... the very Chancellor they took orders from. If they knew he was surrounded by the Dark Side,like ... shouldn't that have been a massive red flag that maybe what they've been doing ISN'T the right way ? So why continue on that path? Because, again in my opinion, because they were attached to the Republic, and didn't want to see it end or defeated. And, again, they should have been above such things. But I admit, I honestly don't know what the correct response would have been. I mean, the correct one was not to fight at all, but by that point they were deep in the War, with the CIS on one side led by a Sith Lord, and on the other a government they were beholden to who's leader was surrounded by the Dark Side. They were caught in the middle , the Dark Side surrounding them. Probably the correct thing for the Jedi to do would've been to abandon the War, have all the remaining Jedi meet on some planet, and try and regroup and figure out how this happened and what went wrong. But that would have cost millions, if not billions of lives, so that wasn't really an option. If anything, I feel for the Jedi. They were stuck as soon as Palpatine was elected, they just didn't know it for 13 years. And sadly, while a lot of it was Sith manipulation behind the scenes, a lot was also their own choices, starting with the big mistake of aligning exclusively with the Galactic Republic. Governments come and go, but the force is forever. Sadly, the Order some 1,000 years back didn't think of it quite this way.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to place at least some of the blame for what happened to the galaxy on the Jedi order itself. No, they weren't the actual perpetrators of the dark times that followed, but they did, through their mistakes and arrogance, allow Palpatine to succeed. Their one true task was to preserve peace and justice in the galaxy, a task that they lost sight of and ultimately failed at, with disastrous ramifications for the inhabitants of the galaxy far far away. I think you can judge people or groups by both the morality of their intentions and the outcome of their actions. The Jedi had good intentions but bad outcomes, and the people of the galaxy suffered for it. When you're in a position of power and responsibility as the Jedi were, you ultimately bear a degree of responsibility for all that occurs, even the things you didn't expect or weren't prepared for (such as a Sith Lord manipulating the political system to become chancellor).

As for why the Jedi failed, I would ascribe a large part of it to their having lost touch -- to the living force, to nature, to regular people. I don't even think (with a few exceptions) that this was by-and-large a problem of any moral failing as individuals on their parts, exactly -- it may have been an unavoidable result in the long run of where their temple was located in the heart of the artificial machine-planet of Coruscant. Here they were, seeking balance in the Force while they themselves occupied a most imbalanced and unnatural environment of endless steel and concrete. It was not a recipe for success, and I think Yoda's self-imposed exile to the wild swamps of Dagobah is a tacit admission on his part that what little was left of the Jedi order needed to re-think some of its ways.

 

Agree with everything you said, and good catch with the Coruscant thing. Rather than being in an environment surrounded by living things, it was as you said a cold, artificial environment. I also think it's no coincidence that they lived in opulence, surrounded and supplied with the best of everything. You could easily believe they lived something of a life of luxury. Which to me, anyway, would seem to be against what the Jedi should have been all about.

Just says to me that at some point in the past the Jedi lost their way, even if they didn't realize it.

 

It's no accident that the Jedi in the prequel trilogy espouse hippy ideas of "letting go" and not trying to preempt or manipulate the natural order of things (which they nevertheless do by having the force obey their commands).

Lucas considered the hippy ethos increasingly nauseating and hypocritical. And partly blamed them for the empowerment of people like Richard Nixon and Ronald Regan. He also was aware that hip people within the industry might claim to be anti-establishment but ultimately profit from and serve it. (Or they turn into something of an establishment themselves - right George.)

 

That has nothing to do with the Jedi's idea of letting go of one's attachment to people and to one's own fear, anger and hate. Lucas's feelings about the rise of someone like Nixon had more to do with people not being vigilant, which is not the same as saying,"Peace, man!" and just sitting down with a thumb up your ass singing "Kumbaya".

Hell, Lucas still maintains that letting go is essential to the Jedi, when describing Luke's victory over the Sith and Anakin's redemption.

 

You're under the impression that the Jedi are the ideal. Their objectives and their aims are ideal. So is their intent with ideas like letting go. Nevertheless, the Jedi are destroyed and the Emperor rises.

And I'm not talking about the stereotype hippy caricature. I'm talking about the then popular quasi eastern philosophy that aided Star Wars appeal. Yes it bred complacency that lead to people like Nixon, in George's view. The Republic became the Empire because the good guys didn't guard well enough from the enemy within.

 

They're destroyed because the Sith came up with a plan to defeat them. That has nothing to do with being ideal or not. That has to do with a superior plan. Just as the Sith are defeated by a superior tactic.

Which doesn't mean that the Jedi are wrong, or need to be done away with. It just meant that they became arrogant about their abilities and in their belief that the Sith were extinct. Nor do the Jedi force the Force to obey their commands. The Force and the Jedi work together to ensure and maintain peace. The Sith manipulate the Force to serve their own agenda.

 

The Jedi failed to prevent the Sith from succeeding. It was the thing they were preoccupied with yet had not the prescience to manage.

I don't think the Jedi should have been wiped out but just simply stating the ideological gulf between them and the Sith does not get them off the hook for their own demise, at least partially. Otherwise the Jedi should have anticipated the Sith threat on those terms and prepared to at least mitigate the seemingly inevitable outcome.

The doctrine for the pursuit of their ideals is inextricably linked to the failings in ensuring the survival of their order. They were tested with a prophesied destroyer of Sith and an enemy to be destroyed and they and their doctrine failed the test to deal with both.

 

Huh? Coruscant is an environment of probably the most populas planet in the galaxy, a population of a OVER A TRILLION living beings at the heart of the galaxy, where millions of civilizations and aliens people co mingled their culture, arts and society into a harmonious balance. And yet the Jedi are somehow more "in touch" if they abandon this and go live as hermits on an off world planet and cut off ties from people just because they will be surrounded by dirt and trees? That doesn't make any sense at all and seems very hypocritical.

 

Spirituality has always been somewhat at odds with cities and civilization. When you look at the lifestyles of great religious figures like Jesus and Buddha and Lao Tzu, one of the commonalities you will find is an eschewing of the luxuries of civilization (such as they were 2000 years ago) in favor of a simple ascetic life in the outdoors. You can see the same understanding expressed in a different way in the traditional agrarian ideal of the small independent farmer, a profession that Thomas Jefferson, for example, held to be the "most virtuous". That line of thinking even made its way directly into Star Wars with Luke, the clear-headed good-hearted farmboy who frees the galaxy. And if you've ever had the opportunity to spend some time away from the daily bustle of civilization, it can be surprising how much it changes your awareness of the world around you and indeed life itself. You begin to realize how much of our waking time is spent in an abstract mental place, thinking and planning and fretting about the future, about things that aren't the here and now. Now that I think about it, that's actually the same reason Anakin and the Jedi failed -- they were so preoccupied trying to control the future that they lost sight of the present. So yes, I do think Coruscant had a corrosive effect on the Jedi order -- despite the presence of whatever fine art exhibits it may have as well as what we know to be an absolutely killer opera scene.

 

That's just not fully true, spirituality has evolved with civilization. Whole majestic Cathedrals were built in Medieval Europe and giant Mosque's in the middle east that are paragons of spirituality and connection to the greater cosmic unknown. If you have ever walked into a great Cathedral where thousands of living beings congregate and follow spiritual rituals you can feel the same sense of the awareness and connection to the world around them and to life itself. Jedi needed to be a part of the people they protected and I just don't think isolating themselves and living like hermits would have established a thousand generations of peace and prosperity in the galaxy. It worked simple as that.

 

And the Sith were destroyed because they let a Jedi come between them in a power struggle. Does that mean that the Sith were deserving of being wiped out? Heroes fail and heroes come back to succeed. Such is life.

The Jedi anticipated the Sith's return, but didn't anticipate the Sith changing tactics. Instead of believing that the Sith would just come forward and conquer as before, they manipulated the galaxy into giving them power.

But they didn't really fail the test. Anakin still destroyed the Sith thanks to Luke. They didn't fail here anymore than they failed the last time the Sith took over or Luke fails this time with the Knights of the Ren. If that's your isthmus test, you should come up with a new one.

 

Which Jedi Dooku or Anakin? Who said that Jedi deserved wiping out? Can you stick to one argument. Either the Jedi didn't fail , or the jedi failed and Luke redeemed them.

The fact that heroes do fail and often also redeem or are redeemed is not an issue of contention here. We are talking about the PT era here and the Jedi order. They failed. But Obi Wan and Yoda trained Luke who managed to help his father, due to their attachment, fulfil the prophesied destruction of the Sith, 19 years after becoming one and helping them destroy the Jedi.

Only anticipating and preparing for one strategy chows that the Jedi were compromised. And how many Jedi turning to the darkside following Dooku (unthinkable to them beforehand) should it have taken for them to anticipate different strategies? That is a failing.

[/quote]

Yoda himself admits to failure. Obi Wan admits to failure. Thanks to Luke's attachment to his father and vice versa, Luke was able to denounce the Sith and Vader able to destroy them (or him, to be exact). None of that aligns with Jedi doctrine, and neither does the unorthodox training that was perceived to be part of Anakin's fall. The doctrine is intended to prevent or tackle the very thing that Anakin became, and yet an even more unorthodox strategy was required to trained Luke who defied the words of Obi Wan and refused to kill his father.

 

It wasn't attachment but compassion that led to Vader saving Luke and fulfilling the prophecy, Luke's attachment to his sister nearly brought him to the darkside, it's only when he saw Vader's mechanical hand that he sees what he nearly became and only then did he choose to let go.
"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love." -Anakin
The Jedi should love everybody unconditionally, that's what they're taught.