The Moral Ambiguity of Star Wars

i think what i see is that the ignorance that is being displayed in terms of the greater picture and the lack of awareness is ONLY in the jedi's case excusable. the people of the republic can be portrayed as stupid, anakin gets the selfish and power-hungry label and so on. fine. go and be unbalanced.

the truth is that the jedi have lost the art of being human and making mistakes and investing their own politics with heart because they have long been consumed by their own hunger for power and protection of that which they hold dear, say, democracy. that is ALSO not letting go, precisely what they accuse others of not being able to do.

and here's the short version: it's okay to support self-righteous hypocrites for their verbal motivations, but in the end actions have always counted more than words and what the jedi lack above all, are acts that are informed by compassion.

i know there's a bit of a broken record in me, but hey. like supporters of the jedi aren't past the heyday of their rhetorics.

One thing I don't see in the films though is the Jedi forcing democracy on anyone.

well, once they decide democracy is best and they want to kick palps out of office, by extension they do. a bit like saying to someone, you have the choice, but i will no longer be your friend if you do what i disagree with. not much of a choice at all. or not one given with integrity.
their probelm is that the support surfaces of something, not depth. at one stage they decided that this is good and someone might have written a paper about it, and then they just kept repeating it until everyone believed. dogma.
if you, on the other hand, see that the concept is only a surface for a deeper idea an understanding of the structure of our relationships with each other, you might get a lot more uncertainty of what is right and wrong but your support can no longer be for a shiny surface of happiness.

They attempt to defend the Republic's from enemies foreign and domestic in the Prequels.

enemies are always constructions. us and them. tat tvam asi, thou art that. they don't understand that they are deluded themselves.

 

i think what i see is that the ignorance that is being displayed in terms of the greater picture and the lack of awareness is ONLY in the jedi's case excusable. the people of the republic can be portrayed as stupid, anakin gets the selfish and power-hungry label and so on. fine. go and be unbalanced.

I don't know that I would still say the people of the Republic were stupid. I certainly used to, but now I would say that they were simply tricked just as the Jedi were. The Senators who supported Palpatine were simply corrupt, but they were like that when Palpatine got there. Vader's a different case but, that's because of his actions and because he stays with the Emperor after Padme dies and it becomes about power and order.

the truth is that the jedi have lost the art of being human and making mistakes and investing their own politics with heart because they have long been consumed by their own hunger for power and protection of that which they hold dear, say, democracy. that is ALSO not letting go, precisely what they accuse others of not being able to do.

and here's the short version: it's okay to support self-righteous hypocrites for their verbal motivations, but in the end actions have always counted more than words and what the jedi lack above all, are acts that are informed by compassion.

i know there's a bit of a broken record in me, but hey. like supporters of the jedi aren't past the heyday of their rhetorics.

So the Jedi are wrong for wanting the people of the galaxy to not be under the heel of an oppressive dictator? Every single action they take is motivated by their compassion for the people of the galaxy.


well, once they decide democracy is best and they want to kick palps out of office, by extension they do. a bit like saying to someone, you have the choice, but i will no longer be your friend if you do what i disagree with. not much of a choice at all. or not one given with integrity.
their probelm is that the support surfaces of something, not depth. at one stage they decided that this is good and someone might have written a paper about it, and then they just kept repeating it until everyone believed. dogma.
if you, on the other hand, see that the concept is only a surface for a deeper idea an understanding of the structure of our relationships with each other, you might get a lot more uncertainty of what is right and wrong but your support can no longer be for a shiny surface of happiness.


The Jedi aren't imposing a democracy on someone though. The Jedi are defending the democracy that was still currently there by attempting to defeat a traitor to the Republic. Once the Empire has embraced the Sith and abandoned democracy, the Jedi attempt to kill the Sith to bring balance to the Force, but when they fail, they go into hiding until the galaxy has started to fight back and the Skywalkers are ready.

 

See any difference between Anakin's actions and those of the other Jedi?

I guess "balance" means everyone is equally guilty?

 

it means that each of them has their share in how things turn out. always has been. always will be that way.

you want to assign blame when you talk of guilt, you want to be able to point at a person/institution to say, it was them. that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation at all.

See any difference between Anakin's actions and those of the other Jedi?

i think this is rhetorical. and yet ...
yes, there is a difference. he is invested with heart. he is naive and he trusts someone who manipulates him because this person is the only one who seems to understand what he goes through. the jedi don't get his need for urgency, why he suffers so much. they have a one-fits all philosophy of stuff they throw at people in case they ask any questions that go beyond, what shall i do, master?

So the Jedi are wrong for wanting the people of the galaxy to not be under the heel of an oppressive dictator? Every single action they take is motivated by their compassion for the people of the galaxy.

especially ESPECIALLY so when they use the clones as cannon fodder. that was motivated through their compassion for the people of the galaxy, which, i guess, simply excludes the clones what with being dispensable.

when will you people actually look at the 'facts'?

how have they simply got the superior opinion over the people who run the senate? they are simply scared to death that under the sith they would no longer be in power, no? oh noes, we are peace-loving, war-mongering idiots, what shall we do without our position in society that has been subtly built into a small empire within centuries? what shall we do what shall we do? the discussion amongst them is not about the actual people, listen to it again, their discussion is about how much a political system will affect their status.
by adhereing to an abstract, to a concept, they can justify the oppression of ten thoudsands of clones, what with the greater good, they can rationalize the oppression of people of tattooine what it being outside their jurisdiction, because you know, their compassion stops at a border, how very clever, and they can rationalize having someone burn to their death because, you know, he didn't do as he was told.

yay to the jedi and their inability to practise compassion.

i tell you, if you got friends like them, you don't need enemies.

 

Heehee. Let it go my friend.
When they're ready they'll see it and they'll realize it's a visual story that is really a fictional study of real world human behavior. I see it a lot at my job: People who make a mistake that is solely their fault will totally rationalize why the mistake is not their fault at all. What I find so truly wonderful about "AOTC" is how Lucas made a movie that many fans hated because on the surface the movie appears to be poorly thought out because a character like Sifo-Dyas is brought in to the story but then is never explained, I even thought this myself for a couple years after the movie was released. But it was never about Sifo-Dyas or a man named Tyranus or Jango or even the Sith. It is a movie about a choice and that's all the movie really is about. The Jedi must make a choice to either stop the enslavement of their fellow man or to further enslave their fellow man. And then in the follow up movie we see their poor choice will cost them their lives when they die at the hands of the personification of their poor choice. It's really a great movie where the audience must judge what is really going on because all the characters are rationalizing why they're doing these horrible things, and what's so very interesting is that the fans even rationalize why the characters are doing horrible things. I know because I was one of them.

 

it means that each of them has their share in how things turn out. always has been. always will be that way.

I haven't seen anyone deny that. If the Jedi had seen the Sith for what they were and been less convinced of the invincibility and infallibility of the Republic and themselves, the galaxy would have been a lot better off as they could have stopped the Sith before they ever regained power.

especially ESPECIALLY so when they use the clones as cannon fodder. that was motivated through their compassion for the people of the galaxy, which, i guess, simply excludes the clones what with being dispensable.

The Jedi treated the Clones no differently than they would any other soldiers they were fighting with. If you have grievances with the decision to field a clone army that was the Republic's decision, not the Jedi's.

how have they simply got the superior opinion over the people who run the senate? they are simply scared to death that under the sith they would no longer be in power, no? oh noes, we are peace-loving, war-mongering idiots, what shall we do without our position in society that has been subtly built into a small empire within centuries? what shall we do what shall we do? the discussion amongst them is not about the actual people, listen to it again, their discussion is about how much a political system will affect their status.

That specific conversation was dealing with the fact that the Jedi Order was threatened, I don't deny that. However, given that the Jedi Order are "the defenders of peace and justice" their entire existence is centered around their desire to keep the galaxy safe and just. They fail miserably by the end of the Prequels, but the intent wasn't about war-mongering or a desire for power. The Jedi simply realize that if the Order falls, the Republic will fall soon after and that a Sith ruled galaxy will result in the cruel oppression that they had practiced the last time they ruled the galaxy.

by adhereing to an abstract, to a concept, they can justify the oppression of ten thoudsands of clones, what with the greater good, they can rationalize the oppression of people of tattooine what it being outside their jurisdiction, because you know, their compassion stops at a border, how very clever, and they can rationalize having someone burn to their death because, you know, he didn't do as he was told.

The Jedi didn't make the decision about the Clones, the Republic did. As for Tatooine, the Jedi should have gone and freed the slaves, I don't dispute that. However, the Jedi can't fight a war all alone and going there would have undoubtedly started a war with the Hutts. That doesn't mean they don't feel compassion for those outside of the Republic, just that there's nothing the Jedi can do about it.

 

same old, same old. they are only ever involved in a decision when you can count it in their favour. nice tactic. i wish it was available to me as well.

anyway, yeah, nice chatting with you, starwalker.

 

Nice having the same argument for the 47th time with you as well.

 

I know I'm being a hypocrite by responding to you, Starwalker but it is short and sweet.

Yeah, the Senate voted to use the clones and the Jedi just followed. But that was where the Jedi made their mistake. The Jedi could have said no. That's the point people like me are making. To me this is what makes the PT interesting. With the OT you just kind of sat there and listened to the characters tell the story but in the PT the characters are lost but it's okay to be lost just as long as the characters do the right thing, however, the PT characters are not doing the right thing so it's up the audience to decide. Lucas throws you into "AOTC" and it's all confusing on purpose but if you just sit there and think for yourself as to what is the right thing to do instead of letting the characters think for you then it's not confusing. In "AOTC" the whole movie is just leading towards the discovery of the clones and the ramifications of the choice the Jedi make once they discover the clones. That's all the movie is. The Jedi just should have packed up and left the Republic once the Republic took ownership of the clones. They could have done that. There was a great big galaxy out there for them to get lost in, so this was an option. The Jedi were not needed because the Republic had their clones and that was that. The truth is the Jedi just should have never mentioned the clones to the Republic in the first place. Because by just not speaking of the clones then the Republic would have been forced to fight their own fight or compromise and that's what getting along within a society is all about anyway: compromise. This whole issue about the slaves on Tatooine is right there on the screen. The Jedi should have helped the all the people on Tatooine. One way this could have been accomplished was that the Jedi could have opened a dialogue between the good off world settlers and the Tusken Raiders. This would have been the army that could have taken on the Hutts and it's just the same thing that the Jedi were involved with on Naboo and Endor. You know the joining of off world people and indigenous people to take out the bad guys. It all came full circle when the new Jedi Order took Jabba out, so I really don't know how you can stand by your rebuttal about the Jedi can't fight a war with the Hutts when it only took two Jedi to take out Jabba and his crew and then later on in the movie we see Luke tell Han to take it easy with the indigenous people of Endor and then the off world people and indigenous people join together there as well.

 

I guess if one wanted to "go there" then the Clones could be seen either as human cloning which has made it's ripple in the news off & on. Or to a certain point stem cell research.

 

this is very eloquently put. i wouldn't even have gone so far as to suggest a course of action but to feel that the jedi have a sense of their own intergrity and clearly they do not.

i would not ask of a body as diverse as them to come up with a decision very quickly becasue to an extent they are also too homogenous as a mass of people, but to imply they had doubt about anything at all that they do, to not march with this frightening righteousness to their doom, that would have been a nice touch. obiwan kinda gets there with some line, but that's about it. the only other jedi with doubt is so scared of speaking out, so scared of losing even this itsy bitsy piece of status, that it's all silent in the end.

it is a study of a group of people being so enarmoured with their closeness to the divine that they think of themselves identical with the divine without actually understanding the relationship at all.

it is also a comment on our jumping to the conclusion that the sign is what it signifies, i.e. a semiotic

 

First on the clones, the Jedi fight with the Clones due to the compromise that you correctly said that societies need to function. The Jedi were certainly not happy about the fact that it was a clone army they were fighting with, especially given that they had no idea who had truly ordered it. Yoda is the only Jedi who realizes by the end of AotC that the fact that the Clone Wars even managed to start was a huge defeat for the Jedi and of course we see how huge a defeat it was when the Clones slaughter the Jedi. However, had the Jedi simply left the Republic to its fate, they would have been abandoning their mandate as defenders of peace and justice. In hindsight, perhaps they should have. However, with the information the Jedi had, combined with their mandate, the Jedi had left themselves no choice but to fight the Sith regardless of the army that the Republic used to do it. They were caught in a catch-22 until they learned the identity of the Sith Lord.

For the Hutts, the Jedi and the Rebellion didn't free all

 

The Jedi do not have a mandate to fight a war over slavery in the Outer Rim.

 

Of course they don't.

 

That is why they fail.

 

They fail because they don't get embroiled in a war in the Outer Rim?

 

No, they fail because they require mandates in order to help people.

 

have you never heard of the compassion that is so deep and endless it stops at the acquisition of a mandate?

 

The Jedi fail because they use the force for defense only. They don't go on the attack unless it's brought on them.

 

The compromise I'm talking about is not about the Jedi taking ownership of the clones. The compromise I'm talking about is exactly what Padme is talking about in "Revenge of the Sith" when she says this war represents a failure to listen. The Jedi and Republic do not compromise with the Separatist or vice versa because they don't want give in one inch to each other's opinions on how things should operate in the Republic.

No one in the Republic is compromising and that's why a civil war breaks out. What I'm talking about is all just academic and is taught at any community college. I'm not treading on new ground here, Lucas just took all the stuff he learned in college and in his life about human behavior and history and just made a movie.

I'm guessing you think the Jedi fighting with the clones is some kind of compromise because you put all this meaning in a couple sentences that Obi-Wan and Yoda exchange at the end of "Attack of the Clones" but there really isn't much there that indicates Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about the mysterious origins of the clones and the ramifications that this may or may not have on the Jedi Order. Yoda is just saying war is never good. And I'm not understanding why you think fighting with clones is a compromise but please explain.

 

No, but there are legal limits to the Jedi's power and they can't violate that.

The Jedi don't take ownership of the Clones though, the Republic does.

Of course, but if it was always that simple there would be no war.

Those lines are the most concrete part of my interpretation, but it always seemed to me like Obi-Wan looked really uncomfortable when the Kaminoans were showing him the clone army. It may just be because there's a massive army that seemingly came out of no where, I suppose, but I took it as also being that the clones were unnatural. Yoda's line about the Clone Wars beginning being a defeat is definitely that any war starting means the Jedi have failed, but I took Obi-Wan's statement that "I have to admit, without the clones, it would not have been a victory." to be indicative of his belief that the Jedi shouldn't be using a Clone army and that they're simply fighting alongside them because that's the army the Republic has fielded, however uncomfortable they may be.

 

The Jedi fail because of Order 66.

 

Ultimately, yeah, but a war breaking out represents at least a degree of failure on the part of the defenders of peace and justice as ideally they would be able to solve the problem without it escalating to a full-scale war.

 

Right... not as a comment about their origins being in question.

 

Their origin being in question would certainly factor into it.