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Rogue One The Moral Choices/Dilemmas of Rogue One

Discussion in 'Rogue One: A Star Wars Story' started by CrAsHcHaOs, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. zackm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 3
    Other than Cassian and General Draven, who from the organized portion of the rebellion does anything morally questionable?
  2. WookieeShampoo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2015
    star 1



    Rebel council:
    -Forcing Jyn to work for them.
    -Not freeing all prisoners on the transporter. There is a good chance that they deserve to be there but one could argue that the rebels should free them from the Empire and its system regardless if they believe it to be unjust.

    Mon Calamari Admiral:
    -Ram manœuvre against the shut down star destroyer.

    Next to nothing compared to the actions of the Empire.
    Last edited by WookieeShampoo, Dec 18, 2016
    Swashbucklingjedi likes this.
  3. zackm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 3
    Hmmm...I didn't really take their actions as forcing Jyn to do anything. Seemed like a typical informant:authority type relationship...we'll forgive your crimes if you help us.
    Not sure why freeing prisoners would be a morally good action.
    Ramming the star destroyer? Maybe. But they were in the middle of a battle. For all they knew, the star destroyer would be back on-line any moment.
  4. Bacbacca Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2011
    star 2
    Yeah, i didnt like this all.

    Specially the scene where all the thieves and assassins decided to join Jyn. That reeeeeeally made it seem like the politicians are all talk while they make the soldiers do all the dirty work under the guise that they can dirty themselves.

    Before the rebellion was all just people that wanted to join the cause and do whatever to take down the empire. Now it seems, like Jyn says, like they end up forcing people to do stuff and there are no different than Stormtroppers.

    Im fine with extremists but saying that extremists are too much while you force people to do things they dont want to do.... that's too much.
  5. Cartoon Boba Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2014
    star 2
    I'm all for moral ambiguity if it's not quite 50/50 but the deaths of all the major characters is not really in the spirit of Star Wars.
    nightangel and Winged_Jedi like this.
  6. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 6
    that's why it's not a saga film. that's the whole point.
  7. Winged_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    My goodness, it is astonishing how many fans seem to want a "realistic" or more "ambiguous" Star Wars. I wonder what your 11 year-old selves would have said? I even saw one poster call this "Star Wars for grown-ups".

    There is no such thing as Star Wars for grown-ups. Star Wars is a story for all ages, but if it's for any group in particular, it's for children. The demand for a more "realistic" Star Wars is part of the greater trend of adult popular culture appropriating childhood entertainment. What happens is that we feel guilty about watching kids' movies, so we try and force adult themes into them so that we can justify it. Nolanverse Batman is probably the most artistically successful example. But it's still absurd - TDK is a film of deadly seriousness about a man dressing as a giant bat to fight a clown.

    We should be able to embrace the fact that we watch children's movies, for the child that lives within us. Kevin Smith (of all people) actually captures this spirit really well in his reviews, and I'm sure that's why he loved the Prequels. We still do it with some movies - everyone loves Toy Story, right? And yet no one is asking for a grittier, realistic take on it.

    The OT was extremely simplistic, and that was a strength. The characters do not act like real people. I repeat: your favourite Star Wars characters do not act like real people. Luke's adoptive parents are brutally killed and he's downbeat for one scene before never mentioning them again. Leia watches her family and homeworld destroyed in front of her, and is already making sassy quips by the time we next see her. Vader is spiritually redeemed for years of mass murder just because he saves his own son, probably the one person in the galaxy he actually cares about.

    Star Wars characters do not act like real people, because they are not real people. They are fairytale characters in a children's story in space. The message of the saga is contained in its black-and-white morality: anger and hate are bad, friendship is the best, violence is harmful, people can be forgiven, love conquers all.
  8. Darth Smurf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 4
    And a lot of extra likes from my side to the like I gave you already
    Winged_Jedi likes this.
  9. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    It's not really that much of a change if you're an adult and been able to read between the lines at some point over the past 39 years.

    Different movies, all equally valid in their own right, have been made about earth history and have the same distinctions. It is entirely appropriate that there can be different ways to skin a cat in the Star Wars universe too.
    Swashbucklingjedi likes this.
  10. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Exactly- even if rebels would have destroyed one planet full of civilians(which they didn't) Empire would be worse since it destroyed 3 with the Death Star.

    Not even Saw's partisans intentionally target innocent bystanders while they ignored them and put them into danger by starting battle in the middle of the street- rebels were morally ambiguous sure but nothing compared to strikingly immoral actions of the Empire which destroyed entire cities and planets mainly filled with innocent people and at the same time destroyed historically and culturally important artifacts and natural environment.

    Rebels even after Rogue One didn't do such atrocities like allies in the WW2 for example yet saying Allies were as bad as Axis sounds like a ridiculous claim (even though Soviet Red Army did all sort of horrible things that makes them many ways pretty equal to nazi regime IMO).

    If people want to see morally perfect rebel alliance I suggest Rebels animated series instead- Rogue One tried to be more realistic in that sense and portray rebellion as a bit more believable organization, sure there are some bad people as well who go too far in fight against the empire, but they are waging a war- it is nasty business anyways.
    EHT and Iron_lord like this.
  11. CEB Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2014
    star 5
    The new canon has already taken steps to recontextualise some of this; in Lost Stars, there are Imperials and Rebels who feel that the poster boy for the rebellion is something that is focused on by others to almost provide propaganda for the righteousness of their movement (with the lead Imperial character finding it genuinely distasteful that Rebels might celebrate the deaths of thousands of Imperial staff who, from her point of view, just want to provide stability)

    I like it myself, I think it's a good way of building a realistic world when the actual heroes are heroic, but are a bit removed from the dirty jobs that have to be done by the regular people on both sides.
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    It destroyed one - and damaged two - how severe the damage is, is unknown, but it did look like Scarif's damage could be ecosystem-wrecking, approaching the end-Cretaceous asteroid impact.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Dec 19, 2016
  13. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 6
    you can destroy a planet by killing everyone on it or making it uninhabitable. or even so people can barely survive like a nuclear holocaust situation. that wasn't the end plan for the ds. they wanted it disintegrate planets.
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    True - It was the "destroyed 3 with the Death Star" I was taking a little issue with since I wasn't sure if the first two qualified.
    thejeditraitor likes this.
  15. Black Star Gunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2014
    star 1
    Whenever living species are involved, good and evil will always compete with each other. The Empire gets a bad rap because the movies are told from the 'good' guy's perspective (supposedly all told from R2-D2). Did the Empire do bad things? Yes, but the ends justified it for them. Alderaan destroyed was done to set an example that people needed to unite under one flag. The two other planets only had cities destroyed. Hell, Aleppo is being destroyed and I'd argue that we're all guilty of allowing it to happen. Under the alliance, security was too elusive. Any how many folks under the Republic were dying from poor leadership from drugs? Deathsticks probably killed more people than the Death Star! I saw one Jedi (Ben) try to curb that issue. In the end, peace is what everyone wants, but the Empire is at fault for actually trying to achieve it? They're misunderstood, and I want a book or movie that shows the good stuff they do, like bake sales or Rebuild a Home projects.


    But seriously, I enjoyed R1 because it shows us that both sides struggle with right and wrong decisions.
  16. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 6
    tcw also showed us that many separatists were good people who didn't want a war but didn't trust the republic.
  17. Millennium Falcon 888 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2016
    star 4
    That's why I feel the line between the good and bad guys is really blurred in Rogue One...

    It's already so obvious that the Rebels are just as scheming at this scene - where Cassian just killed his "informer" fellow to avoid being caught by Stormtroopers... And what about the Rebel fleet actually causing the death of Galen Erso, who should have made it out of Eadu alive if not for the X-Wings dropping bombs at the "wrong time"... When a key informant like Galen should have been extracted alive, since the Rebels needed the details of the DS1 anyway!

    Sent from MillenniumFalcon.exe using Tapatalk
  18. WookieeShampoo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2015
    star 1
    I saw RO in German so maybe the translation makes it sound harsher.
    The prisoner situation is difficult, if they are forced into gulag-style camps or something similar I´d probably call it morally good to free them, but of course you might enable some sick people to do bad things to innocent citizens.
    I think most people agree that ramming the star destroyer was absolutely justified, but it looks like an action that could be subject to some law of war.
    Last edited by WookieeShampoo, Dec 19, 2016
  19. PaulWrightyThen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2016
    star 2
    I see a lot of complaining about the grimy tones and moral ambiguity of this film. It was advertised ahead of time. Stick with the main saga. For me, this was the Star Wars film I'd wanted since Jedi. Bits of this were hinted at in the OT with Han being a dude who smokes fools without asking questions. He just needs a bit of extra time to unclip his gun. He's a seedy smuggler. 11 year old me knew this was a dangerous universe. I wanted more. 11 year old me would have loved this. 11 year old me was gangster. (Just kidding on that part, I've NEVER been gangster). 11 year old me loved the Indy movies where he's a bit of a douche bag and murderising EVERYONE he comes across. They are dark movies.

    If your not comfortable with a dark star wars movie, that's cool. Just don't take away MY dark Star Wars. Mooooore please. :)
  20. Bob Effette Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2015
    star 1

    I disagree. The eclectic cast of Rogue One are more reminiscent of something Joss Whedon might have created, a la Firefly or the crew from The Betty in Alien: Resurrection, neither of which are aimed specifically at children. I think Star Wars tries to embrace its cross-age appeal. It is no coincidence that the closest tonally of the original trilogy to Rogue One, i.e. The Empire Strikes Back is also the most popular amongst adult fans.
  21. Jabberwock2137 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 1
    Some one in an interview that I can't find online mentioned that the Rebels blow up the Death Star (and all of the independent contractors and their families) in retaliation for the Empire blowing up Alderaan so... yeah :D How you see things all depends upon your point of view.

    I think the fact that Yavin 4 was seconds away from being obliterated by a planet destroying space station (albeit full of 'workers') would sway one's opinion somewhat.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  22. Birkendoc Purveyor of ST Trivia

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2001
    star 4
    This is the stark reality of real rebellions. They involve terrorism and murder because they are ideologically at war with the estsblisment that are in objection with. While I love the OT as much as I did as a child, the OT really did sanitize this aspect. R1 did not. It brought in the moral ambiguity of rebellions. While there was no gore, it showed the rebellion, while rooted in the premise of freedom, needed to get its hands Bloody in the process. It succeeded in generating sympathy by reminding us that the Empire was worse and that collateral damage was a reality.

    This has been hyped as the true war movie of the saga, and it was. It didn't candy coat anything about the Alliance's origins.

    And I'm okay with it. These were people that needed to be freed from an evil and oppressive regime.
    Last edited by Birkendoc, Dec 19, 2016
  23. PaulWrightyThen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2016
    star 2
    I apologise for my misspelling of 'your're'. Pet hate of mine...
  24. Jedi Master Scorpio Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2015
    star 4

    I 100% agree. When opposing a Tyrannical Empire, you will do whatever is needed to win. This movie allowed us to see that. I loved it. Truth be told, not all situations have a happy ending. Sometimes even the good guys take a serious hit.
  25. 357hermon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2016
    star 1
    The Empire thinks the Rebels are wrong... The Rebels think the Empire is wrong. War is always that way. Somewhere in the past, I read the design of TFA was designed that way and I think RO was definitely driven that way. It made for a good war story and helped the justified death of the heroes.
    PaulWrightyThen likes this.