The morality of superweapons and the way they are used...NJO Style!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediMasterAaron, Aug 22, 2001.

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  1. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with you for the most part III_Vir_RPC, but as I've said before, I have nothing against the use of superweapons. I still don't like the idea of jedi using them. Jedi are defenders of life, and if they have to take out massive amounts of life instantly to do it, there is no guarantee that a jedi will remain with the "light" (oh, and please don't tell me a lightsaber is no different from a superweapon :0 )

    Still, the scales of massive life destruction potential are so heavy on the side of superweapons, I cannot see a superweapon other than for what it really is: to destroy massive amounts of life instantly. With superweapons, there is ALWAYS a certain amount of indiscrimination no matter how much Anakin believed everything would be hunky-doary had HE had fired Centerpoint.

    Also, I agree (for the most part) with your argument about how a superweapon is employed that really determines its goodness or badness. Basically, you are saying the ends never justify the means (because in and of itself, a superweapon's ends is to destroy, annihilate and otherwise obliterate everything in a certain vicinity indiscriminately and without remorse). The means a superweapon is used determines its "goodness" or evil. Thank you. I agree.

    As for Centerpoint, I've said this before, and I'll say it again.. jedi should not be tools of firing superweapons. It is the NR's responsibility to decide and carry out [the firing of superweapons]. The question arises whether it is a jedi's responsibility to fire and save hundreds if the NR has no one else proficient enough to operate the superweapon. That is a good question to which I am honestly stumped. If the NR is going to fire anyway, I would say yes, let a jedi instead fire it and let him do it in the right reasons: with NR approval and to spare life. But as for the situation in jedi eclipse, neither anakin nor jacen knew that Thracken was going to fire anyway. Which is why Anakin was bitter about it (I think part of Anakin actually agreed with Jacen about not firing Centerpoint... that a jedi couldn't do it... that Leia's son couldn't do that.. that Luke's nephew couldn't do it. But when it was fired anyway, Anakin's upset that HE didn't get to fire it).
  2. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    -Vergere-, I agree with you completely.

    The firing of a superweapon should never be taken lightly. If a superweapon is going to be fired one way or another and having a Jedi fire it is the only way to save the most lives, than the Jedi should fire it. However, the decision to fire the weapon can not be his. The decision to kill that many people in one instant, knowing that some people are going to die that do not need to die, is not a decision that a Jedi should ever make.
  3. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    Thank you, JediJSolo. You make a good point that superweapons should not be taken lightly... especially not by jedi because of the end purpose that a superweapon is designed for. Superweapons kill billions (all kinds of life) in an instant and indiscriminately. A normal weapon can never replicate such a performance. One person with 1 blaster could NEVER EVER replicate such a performance. There is a difference here.

    It's almost like saying there is no difference between 1 billion and 1.
  4. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Ladies and gentlemen, if, as you contend, a Jedi should not take drastic action in times of extreme duress, you effectively defeat their purpose. The purpose of the Jedi is not to be content and to avoid the dark side of the Force. The purpose of the Jedi is to protect and defend.

    When a Jedi, out of desire to avoid temptation, fails to take justified action, he or she is committing a sin of ommission, which is every bit as greivous as a sin of commission.

    For some most peculiar reason, Mr Skywalker's offensive action in the Battle of Yavin IV. Firing a pair of proton torpedos, with a total firepower of three kilotons, Mr Skywalker indiscriminately killed several million Imperial personnel. Was his action not justified? It was taken in an appropriate fashion against a viable military target.

    Jacen and Anakin Solo, in their failure to act as warranted, committed a sin of ommission by not firing the Centrepoint Station's weapon. Because Anakin Solo did not do so, a number of Hapans were killed.

    The failure of the modern Jedi to understand the concept of sin of ommission couples with their seemingly inherent cowardice, and they do not act. They do not use their powers to the fullest extent to fulfill their duty---to protect the citizenry of the galaxy.

    Compare the modern Jedi Order to the ancient Knights of the old Republic. Compare the coward Yoda to the valiant Vodo Siosk-Baas. Compare Master Skywalker's quasipacifism with the terrible swift sword of justice with which the Jedi moved against the last vestiges of the Sith Brotherhood on Yavin IV.

    No, the Jedi goal is not to preserve all life regardless of the cost---true Jedi understand that sacrifices must be made, else all will be lost. Unfortunately, it seems that the last true Jedi died at about the time of the Battle of Ruusan.

  5. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Well said III_Vir_RPC.

    I agree with you totally.
  6. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    I do not take offense to Luke?s actions at the battle of Yavin. What he did, he did in defense of, not only the rebellion, but also a planet (or moon to be more precise) filed with life.

    The incident with centerpoint is probably a bad example. That battle would have been won had Anakin fired or not, and the Hapens would have still joined the war effort. The only reason why that particular incident became sour (if you will forgive the understatement) was because a man who didn?t know what he was doing mishandled the weapon.
  7. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    "Ladies and gentlemen, if, as you contend, a Jedi should not take drastic action in times of extreme duress, you effectively defeat their purpose."

    Not so. A jedi should not and cannot think on the grand scale. That was part of the problem with Jacen Solo in the DT duology - he thought on the grand scale and believed in higher, bigger solutions within the Force. A jedi should take it one step at a time. If a jedi is smart about it, like Jacen and Jaina's plan to destroy the ice planet of Helska IV, a superweapon need not be used.

    You assume that Anakin firing Centerpoint is THE solution. I don't think Anakin thought out other possible solutions. Even though the Hapan and NR fleet were at odds against the YV in Jedi Eclipse, there is no reason to believe that they weren't smart enough to come up with some plan fend off the YV at Fondor AND save MOST of the Hapan & NR fleet at the same time. All without using the indiscriminate power of a superweapon. That is action also! You can act without firing a superweapon!

    You talk about making sacrifice and acting. Firing Centerpoint was about taking the easy way out and AVOIDING any sacrifice on our part.

    The fact remains that a superweapon is designed for the sole purpose of decimating all kinds of life indiscriminately. There can be doubt about that. To act is one thing, to fire a superweapon when other possibilities have not been fully explored is another.

    To act as Kyp Durron did in Rebirth is by deception (he couldn't destroy the worldship by himself and the Dozen, and he knew it). It alienates the NR military and you lose all trust. Right now, the jedi as a whole are viewed distastefully by alot of people - the government and the common person alike. As I've said before, who's to say Anakin wouldn't be indirectly blamed for something peripheral that the YV do in response to Anakin firing Centerpoint? I mean Corran was blamed for Ithor...
  8. darthparth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2001
    star 3
    I don't see why superweapons arent being used against the YV. Especially Centerpoint which has been proven to work (Even though it's broken now). It is true killing innocents isn't good, but superweapons themselves aren't evil as the Republic and Jedi seem to contend.

    Killing innocents is evil, granted. But all the YV in the galaxy are working for the YV War machine. Even the priests are working towards the destruction of the people of the GFFA. In a religious war like this, where the root of the conflict is present in the basic beliefs of the individuals, there are no innocents. All the Vong in the galalxy are working towards the military - there are not innocents.

    It is not a crime to use Centerpoint to destroy a YV fleet. In fact, it was more wrong NOT to use it, which resulted in an impatient Thracken using it, and destroying several allied lives instead of the enemy.

    DarthParth
  9. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?A jedi should not and cannot think on the grand scale. That was part of the problem with Jacen Solo in the DT duology - he thought on the grand scale and believed in higher, bigger solutions within the Force. A jedi should take it one step at a time.?

    -Vergere-, I don?t disagree with you often, but I am going to now. I believe that a true Jedi must think on a grand scale. Firing centerpoint would have been acting in the moment, with little mind for the future. A Jedi must always be mindful of the future, if he is to take the best action in the present. (I?m not sure that I worded that right, but I am fairly sure that you understand my meaning)
  10. darthparth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2001
    star 3
    Jedi Solo, are you saying killing the YV fleet at Fondor wouldn't have been the right thing to do for the future? It would have saved countless lives, as well as the possibility of ending this war altogether.

  11. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Not so. A jedi should not and cannot think on the grand scale. That was part of the problem with Jacen Solo in the DT duology - he thought on the grand scale and believed in higher, bigger solutions within the Force."

    Vergere-

    As with JediSolo, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one as well. Of course, I realize that this is going to be largely a matter of opinion. It also goes back to a main argument that I'm having about Jacen and Kyp. I see Kyp as seeing only the moment. I see Jacen as seeing nothing but the big picture. I don't think either of these are right. There is a time and place for living in the moment, but there is also a time and place for "being mindful of the future". As we've seen, both sides can cause unnecessary death. Jacens failure to act killed how many innocents on Duro? And Kyp's highly questionable actions have resulted in how many lost lives? A Jedi who doesn't look at the big picture is one who is seeing only the needs of the moment, regardless of the consequences of tomorrow. What this is, especially for a Jedi, is action without any real thought, something which a Force-sensitive simply cannot afford to do. The potential for destruction if he makes the wrong choice is simply too great. Again, I feel Anakin is the right balance of deliberation and action, but that is another debate for another time.

    So I guess what I'm saying is, while I don't totally disagree with you, I don't completely agree either. A Jedi losing sight of the big picture is a Jedi acting on limited thought, and probably fueled by a fair amount of emotion. That's obviously the exit ramp to Dark Sideville.

    JMA
  12. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Not so. A jedi should not and cannot think on the grand scale. That was part of the problem with Jacen Solo in the DT duology - he thought on the grand scale and believed in higher, bigger solutions within the Force.


    Jacen Solo is a foolish, petulant, egoistic child. His ability---or lack thereof---to operate on a scale larger than the here and now is not in any way indicative of the responsibility of the Jedi to act.

    If a Jedi solely concentrates on the here and now, then he or she is liable to take actions which may seem well-advised at the moment, but which are in fact most ill-advised in the long run.

    For example, Vice Admiral Fletcher was given explicit orders from Fleet Admiral Nimitz that the preservation of the American fleet was more important than retention of Midway Island. In fact, Admiral Nimitz specifically said that if faced with the choice of saving the fleet or saving Midway, Admiral Fletcher was to save the fleet.

    Another example is found later in the Battle of Midway---had Rear Admiral Spruance pursued the fleeing Hiryu as his chief of staff, Captain Browning, had suggested, the entire American squadron would have come under the guns of a massive Imperial fleet, flagged by Fleet Admiral Yamamoto and the monstrous battleship Yamato.

    Thinking for the moment is an admirable skill---and is necessary---but it must never replace logical, sound reason. One cannot entirely ignore the grand scheme to focus on details, any more than one can do the converse. In all things, moderation.

    A jedi should take it one step at a time. If a jedi is smart about it, like Jacen and Jaina's plan to destroy the ice planet of Helska IV, a superweapon need not be used.


    Are you suggesting, then, that rather than send the Grand Fleet to intercept the High Seas Fleet, the Admiralty should have sent a few commandos?

    There are circumstances which call for application of overwhelming force. A few special commandos, no matter how ingenious and inventive, cannot do that. Aside from vast fleets or superweapons, there is no way to do that. The New Republic has no vast fleets, and it refuses to even consider the use of superweapons.

    You assume that Anakin firing Centerpoint is THE solution. I don't think Anakin thought out other possible solutions.


    What do you suggest? Sending Wraith Squadron to infiltrate the Yuuzhan Vong fleet by impersonating a troupe of actors in a vaudeville act?

    In clashes of titanic fleets, there is no solution but application of superior force. There is no safer solution than application of overwhelming force.

    Even though the Hapan and NR fleet were at odds against the YV in Jedi Eclipse, there is no reason to believe that they weren't smart enough to come up with some plan fend off the YV at Fondor AND save MOST of the Hapan & NR fleet at the same time.


    So you recommend waiting for a deus ex machina to save the day, rather than take action? There is absolutely no reason to believe that any solution could be reached other than through application of force. This is simply dodging the issue.

    Along these same lines, it is just as easy to say that the Rebellion had no justification for acting against the Empire, since the Rebels were smart enough to save the galaxy without using force.

    Doesn't work, does it?

    All without using the indiscriminate power of a superweapon. That is action also! You can act without firing a superweapon!


    Please elaborate, then. What is this miraculous action that could be taken that would defeat the Yuuzhan Vong fleet and save the Fondor yards without unacceptable loss of life? What could be done? You cannot wave your arms and make unsubstantiated statements of nebulous veracity, and hope that it'll withstand scrutiny.

    You talk about making sacrifice and acting. Firing Centerpoint was about taking the easy way out and AVOIDING any sacrifice on our part.


    So you
  13. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?Jedi Solo, are you saying killing the YV fleet at Fondor wouldn't have been the right thing to do for the future? It would have saved countless lives, as well as the possibility of ending this war altogether.?

    First of all, destroying that one Vong fleet at Fondor with centerpoint would not have even come close to ending the war; there were still lots of Vong on there way in from outside the galaxy. As far as it saving countless lives, that is debatable. With the Hapen?s help, that battle would probably have been won anyway. If Anakin had fired centerpoint, he wouldn?t have defeated the Vong there, he would have massacred them. That would have had unforeseen results, for Anakin?s psychological health, public opinion of the Jedi in general (the Jedi can not defeat the Vong without help), and the temptation to over use centerpoint just because it worked in that battle.
  14. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    "First of all, destroying that one Vong fleet at Fondor with centerpoint would not have even come close to ending the war; there were still lots of Vong on there way in from outside the galaxy. "

    No one battle ever wins a war(usually :p maybe there's something in history I don't know about :p ). You have to start somewhere. :p
  15. KansasNavy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2001
    star 4
    If Jedi's are the defenders of life, why do they have lightsabers?

    Unfortunately, because of Anakin's refusal to massacre the enemy, his decision cost the massacre of your allies. Allies you would need for many purposes.

    Like I said before, use Centerpoint to hit strategic targets, rather than slaughtering troop convoys, etc. Hit the shipwombs, command ships, and you could easily fire near a worldship, causing major malfunctions. That would make the Vong use more resources to repair it, low civilian casualties, and no regrets.

    An idea of mine: Centerpoint will play a major role in the NJO for few critical reasons.
    1. An old relic that was made by a incredibly powerful and ancient species.
    2. Obviously, a superweapon and giant interdictor
    3. Corellia and it's shipyards lies near it.
    4. It is form-fitted to Anakin.

    Hmmmm...maybe this superweapon is deeper to the NJO than we think.
  16. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Nether Anakin, nor Jacen, is responsible for what happened at Fondor. Anakin wasn?t sure if he could fire centerpoint without killing people who didn?t need to die. That is why he asked for his brother?s opinion, and that is why he excepted his brother?s opinion and didn?t fire. I don?t blame Jacen for speaking his mind, and I don?t blame Anakin for not firing. The decision to fire or not fire rested solely on Anakin and the decision of weather or not to massacre an entire fleet is not something that should be given to a 15 or 16 year old. Now, the fact that centerpoint was fired anyway was not the fault of ether Anakin, or Jacen. It was the fault of the man who fired it. There were many events that led up to what happened at Fondor, but in the end the responsibility rests solely on the man who pulled the trigger.
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    First thing: Jedi killing many does not drive them to the Dark Side. Evil intentions do. However, by destroying life, a Jedi weakens their own power and connection to the Force. But sacrifices must be made. The old Galactic Republic or Empire wouldn't have so many probelms.

    Galactic Republic (during its height): Jedi, with understanding of the Force, would fight the Vong. The government would follow the correct path and fight the Vong.

    Galactic Empire: No questions... Sarreti was wrong. The Rebels did not defeat the Empire. The JEDI did. If Skywalker (both of them) had not killed the Emperor, then the Empire would have won.
    One would argue that the Emperor's death did not end the Empire, and the others' help after the fact would. That is the same scenario as the Fondor battle. One battle makes a BIG difference. The Vong would be blunted, and public confidance and support would rise.
    The Empire would have had a straight forward goal: Eliminate the Empire.


    With an unrelenting enemy, that is the only solution. The Vong will not sue for peace, they will kill, or be killed. That is pure logic. Look at the possible scenarios... The only way to beat them is to fight.

    "It would take over half the Starfleet". Fleets are superweapons as well. Get rid of one entity, get rid of the many too. In this war there is no inbetween. Fight, or do not. In this case, Pacifism leads to death.


    Luke is a fool. Did Yoda not want him to kill Vader? One could argue that they were testing him, but they did want him to kill him, with a good intention. Luke took him too literally. All the old Jedi knew when to fight, and when not too.

    Kyp's way is not correct, however. Indescriminant killing does not help.

    Abandoning the Republic is not good either. Jedi PR can be restored, so violence is not the best solution. Against the Vong... it is the only solution. Dieing does not solve a probelm. It merely ends it.


    The WWII analogy is an excellent one. The Japanese were unrelenting as well-- not barbaric, but they would not give up. Only the Emperor was able to end it-- bombing Japan would not end the war unless the military was gone, which it was.

    Superweapons should be used on on valid military targets, the GFFA should fight the enemy, not become it. After the military is gone, the situation should be surveyed, and further action should be taken from there.

    _____________________________________________

    Whew... I'm not tired anymore. I always seem to think better at night, or when I'm tired. But now, I'm wide awake. Unfortunately, I have to go. I have more, but I'll post it later, while I think some more.
  18. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    A weapon in and of itself is not evil. To be evil, there are several requirements:

    There has to be a standard, either social or personal, dictating right and wrong.

    There has to be some kind of self knowledge, or intent. An insane persone doing bad stuff isn't evil, he's insane. A weapon isn't evil, it's an object.

    I love getting into debates at school in ethics classes when people say something dumb like, "The nuclear bomb is evil." I invariably point out that by using it, in the long run more lives were probably saved than were lost in the blasts. Additionally, a bomb itself simply cannot be evil. Just sitting in a room, if it had to be classified in such terms, if anything it should be "good." Having such a weapon helps to keep the peace. If it is used with an evil intent, then the user may be evil, but saying the bomb is evil is like saying an ax is evil because people have killed with them. I could continue on, but you probably get my point.

    A "superweapon" is great -- in peacetime, it helps to keep the peace. If that peace fails somehow, it will probably ultimately ensure a more timely and decisive victory, therefore minimizing casualties by ending any "wars of attrition."

    Just my take on the subject.

    EDIT -- I hadn't read the other posts, and therefore hadn't realized all this had already been said.

    In any event, in a war there are civilian casualties, particularly in the sort of guerilla warfare that the SW people tend to love.

    And just to bring up the Clerks debate -- If the Emperor had used the DSII at Endor, fewer people would have died than the laborers who died when the thing blew up.
  19. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    This post is extremely long (for me at least). It is very late at night were I am and I?m feeling kind of creative (I suppose GrandAdmiralJello and I a similar that way). And as you can probably tell, I have my own opinion on Jedi philosophy and I enjoy sharing those opinions. So I ask you to please bear with me. :)


    GrandAdmiralJello, I think you made some very good points.

    ?Jedi killing many does not drive them to the Dark Side. Evil intentions do.?

    This is my only major gripe about what you said. Don?t get me wrong, I agree that killing many doesn?t drive Jedi to the Dark Side. However, I don?t believe that evil intentions drive a Jedi to the Dark Side either. Evil intentions are the Dark Side. I believe that a Jedi can be driven to the Dark Side by one of three was.

    1.By an extremely traumatic experience (this is the fastest way a Jedi can be seduced by the dark side).
    2.By a conscious decision made on the part of the Jedi (this is often confused with the first method by the Jedi in question).
    3.By a continuos misuse of power (this is the slowest way to be seduced by the Dark Side, but it is also the most difficult to recognize).

    Lets discus method #3, because it is the most compacted.

    Example scenario:
    A Jedi is sent to protect an elected official of the New Republic at an out door press conference. The elected official is standing in front of a large crowd of people, giving a speech. There is an assassin hiding behind a conveniently located bush. In this location the assassin has a perfect view of the speaker. The Jedi senses no evil intentions from anyone because the assassin truly believes that this particular elected official must die for the good of the galaxy. In the middle of the elected official?s speech, the assassin stands up, aims his blaster at the official?s head and fires one shot. The Jedi leaps into action and deflects the bolt back at the assassin and kills him.

    The official is happy because he?s not dead. The Jedi is happy because he saved the official?s life and no one in the crowd was heart. However, the Jedi misused his power by killing the assassin. He had only been interested in saving the lives of the official and the lives of the people in the crowd. He had completely failed to save the assassin, who was probably, one of the only people at that gathering whom truly believed, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that he was doing the right thing.

    Why is this bad? This is bad, because the Jedi killed a man who did not need to die. Had the Jedi been listening to the Force for wisdom it would have directed his attention to the small rock at the assassin?s feet, which the Jedi could have used to hit the assassin over the head and knock him unconscious. After doing that he could have taken the assassin to the nearest mental hospital.

    Was what the Jedi did wrong? Yes. Did the Jedi go to the Dark Side by doing it? No, however if the Jedi continues to misuse his power by choosing aggression over wisdom he will eventually come to believe that aggression is best way to salve all problems and that is definitely of the Dark Side.

    Jedi have always been more susceptible to misusing their power than the average person has. The average person does not feel power flowing through them at all times. The average person can not feel the power of their weapon. The average person does not become a part of their weapon the way a Jedi does. A Jedi?s mental bond to his weapon can make him feel stronger. In fact this bond can very easily promote a sense of near omnipotence, if the weapon is powerful enough.

    This means that Jedi must have higher ideals than the average person, especially when it comes to superweapons. If there is no other way to win a conflict than to have a Jedi at the trigger of a superweapon, than that Jedi must be the one to pull that trigger. But if it is not required to have a Jedi pull that trigger, than have someone else do it. A Non-Jedi will be much less likely to misuse that weapon in the future.
  20. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    "Jacen Solo is a foolish, petulant, egoistic child."

    Sounds more personal than anything else. There is a personal hatred for jacen, his ideas and his inaction involved here. I will only say Star Wars is about emotions, Jedi beliefs and mental stability as much as it is about action. Jacen enriches the storyline and certainly makes it more interesting to examine - either by rebuffing or assenting. The authors created such a character to induce such a strong feeling either one way or the other IMHO.

    "If a Jedi solely concentrates on the here and now, then he or she is liable to take actions which may seem well-advised at the moment, but which are in fact most ill-advised in the long run."

    Many of you have pointed out my shortcoming in simply concentrating on the here and now. I will point out that the character of Jacen Solo is rooted in looking beyond the here and now. He is looking for something more and some greater purpose within Force and the correct usage of it. He thinks on a grand scale and you may fault his egoism or self-righteousness for that, but the fact remains that every action Jacen undertakes he undertakes with some understanding of foresight.

    As for your comnments before the NJO, I cannot dispute them. I have not read any of the books before the NJO and if you think my arguments any less substantial or me any more ignorant for it, so be it. RAS doing Vector Prime is what prompted me to start reading NJO. RAS is by far one of my favorite fantasy authors hands down. He did the very popular series on the character of Drizzt Do'Urdun (a very cool character to say the least :) ).

    "Thinking for the moment is an admirable skill---and is necessary---but it must never replace logical, sound reason. One cannot entirely ignore the grand scheme to focus on details, any more than one can do the converse. In all things, moderation."

    Agreed. Many of you are arguing for the jacen character, because doesn't he, more than anyone else, think in these terms (too much so in fact)?

    "There are circumstances which call for application of overwhelming force."

    By overwhelming force, I assume you mean superweapons. Not only do I disagree using superweapons as brashly as you suggest, but it would make for a very uninteresting story. Let's just assume for a second that the NR used superweapons to obliterate the enemy. Not once, not twice, but as many times as needed. There a few sacrifices to be made, but heck, the YV have been driven out of our galaxy and everything is hunky-doary for years. Not only would the series be over in a couple books, but it would make for a very boring story. Furthermore, whose to say that the YV don't return with massive superweapons of their own years later (constructed by shapers, Nen Yim possibly) to take us by surprise and annihilate almost everything before we are able to retaliate? As much as everyone in this forum despises the NR's refusal to actively fire more superweapons, it is a fact that use of superweapons magnifies the severity and horror of life lost on both sides. No war is supposed to be rosy, but with superweapons, there is a real possibly of annihilating each other (ex., the Cuban missile crissis). Any survivors would rather call the victory a torturous death than a victory. Isn't this what loooking ahead is all about? If you don't believe superweapons are any different than fighting with a lightsaber or blaster, you are only kidding yourself. I said this once before and I'll say it again: a superweapon's end goal is to obliterate all life in a vicinity in an instant. If you think there is nothing wrong with that as a jedi, I believe you are gravely mistaken.

    "There is absolutely no reason to believe that any solution could be reached [in Centerpoint] other than through application of force. This is simply dodging the issue."

    By "application of force," I once again assume you mean superweapons for that is subject of this thread. If you believe Centerpoint was the ONLY way to go, once again, it is you who thinking in the here and no
  21. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    Mastadge -
    "I love getting into debates at school in ethics classes when people say something dumb like, "The nuclear bomb is evil." I invariably point out that by using it, in the long run more lives were probably saved than were lost in the blasts."

    You then are not looking far enough into the future. Once again, I agree with the reasons for dropping the bomb on Japan - it was to end a war. The small country of Japan could not retaliate until it was too late. Attacking a fleet of YV however in our own galaxy (our own turf, if you will) will not have the same effect. The YV will keep coming relentlessly, possibly with superweapons of their own (created by Shapers). The magnified horror of death on both sides will follow.

    "Having such a weapon helps to keep the peace."

    Wow. I do not have the words and emotions to properly disagree here. Having superweapons invariably prompts your enemies to construct superweapons of their own. The situation escalates, and before you know it, everyone is dead. The potential for that happening is so real, you take it for granted that it will never happen since it hasn't happened yet in real life already. Just look at the India-Pakistan situation. Both countries are developing bombs to show off their flexed muscles. The hatred they have for one another runs deep and simply having superweapons magnifies the potential of killing both and destroying both sides.
  22. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    "The situation escalates, and before you know it, everyone is dead"

    Just like the cold war...j/k. Really, though, once the weapons get big enough, everyone's afraid to use them, so they essentially will just sit there.
  23. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    If the NR do build a superweapon I agree with KansasNavy that it should be something of military practicality rather than a mechanism designed as a means to instill terror.

    Like the one shot to obliterate a Vong vessel kind of superlaser in a ship. That is an efficient way to eliminate a current threat in an engagement with said superlaserweapon, and thus under the moral exclusion afforded to soldiers and the weapons they use to take lives with in battle. It's just a rather effecient way to achieve the goals the military commanders would set with conventional weapons.

    However using the superweapon to destroy Vong-held planets should be out of the question. Afterall when the NR finally go on the offensive they'll be aiming to retake Vong conquered planets not blow them to pieces.
  24. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Repeated use if superweapons makes one lax. That is not good. A couple uses are fine. However, action must be taken. There is no chance of peace.


    The Centerpoint Station wasn't supposed to wipe out Fondor, just the Vong fleet.
  25. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Sounds more personal than anything else. There is a personal hatred for jacen, his ideas and his inaction involved here.


    You are mistaken. It is not a personal hatred for Mr Solo, but rather contempt for his presumption and arrogance. He is a modern Jedi in the truest sense---a self-absorbed egoist more concerned about his emotional well-being than his responsibility as a Jedi to act in defence of the defenceless.

    I will only say Star Wars is about emotions, Jedi beliefs and mental stability as much as it is about action. Jacen enriches the storyline and certainly makes it more interesting to examine - either by rebuffing or assenting.


    Mr Solo enriches the storyline by proving most eloquently that, even in Star Wars, having distinguished lineage does not guarantee the inheritence of the best features of one's parents---or any at all.

    I will point out that the character of Jacen Solo is rooted in looking beyond the here and now. He is looking for something more and some greater purpose within Force and the correct usage of it.


    Mr Solo is rooted in overly-convoluted high-minded and short-sighted contemplation of his own purity, and the purity of others. He values his lofty ideals more than life itself, it seems.

    He thinks on a grand scale and you may fault his egoism or self-righteousness for that, but the fact remains that every action Jacen undertakes he undertakes with some understanding of foresight.


    Yes, like his foolish and utterly pointless attempt to be a saviour to Yuuzhan Vong slaves. Some understanding of foresight, yes---a poor one, it seems.

    Agreed. Many of you are arguing for the jacen character, because doesn't he, more than anyone else, think in these terms (too much so in fact)?


    Mr Solo is a poor representation of the need for a greater understanding of grand strategy as well as strategy and tactics.

    By overwhelming force, I assume you mean superweapons.


    Overwhelming force refers to any application of force which ensures victory. It can be applied in many ways, among them, the use of a superweapon.

    Not only do I disagree using superweapons as brashly as you suggest, but it would make for a very uninteresting story.


    Dramaturgics are irrelevant to an intrinsic discussion.

    There a few sacrifices to be made, but heck, the YV have been driven out of our galaxy and everything is hunky-doary for years. Not only would the series be over in a couple books, but it would make for a very boring story.


    Dramaturgics are irrelevant to an intrinsic discussion.

    Furthermore, whose to say that the YV don't return with massive superweapons of their own years later (constructed by shapers, Nen Yim possibly) to take us by surprise and annihilate almost everything before we are able to retaliate?


    Unsubstantiated fantasy.

    What evidence is there to suggest that the Yuuzhan Vong are capable of such a thing? In fact, evidence strongly suggests that the entire Yuuzhan Vong civilisation is en route to the galaxy---which means that if the Yuuzhan Vong are expelled, they will be unable to return in such a fashion.

    As much as everyone in this forum despises the NR's refusal to actively fire more superweapons, it is a fact that use of superweapons magnifies the severity and horror of life lost on both sides. No war is supposed to be rosy, but with superweapons, there is a real possibly of annihilating each other (ex., the Cuban missile crissis).


    The Yuuzhan Vong lack weapons of mass destruction on the scale to justify statements of mutual assured destruction. MAD simply is not a reasonable conclusion.

    Consult the following maxim:

    War must be made as intense and awful as possible, in order to make it short, and thus to diminish its horrors.


    Any survivors would rather call th
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