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Saga The more you learned about the Jedi or as time went on did you dislike them more?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by SatineNaberrie, Mar 4, 2015.

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  1. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    I was introduced to Star Wars as a young kid and watched the prequels while still in elementary school, so I didn't give a lot of thought on this. The lightsaber stuff looked cool to me, but thinking back on the things that were revealed on the Jedi, I can see how they might be disliked than what we see in ANH.

    From a ANH there isn't much on the Jedi. Obi-wan called them Guardians of Peace and justice.

    In ESB Yoda tells Luke anger leads to the dark side and once you start down the dark path forever will in dominate your destiny.

    In ROTJ we learn Obi-wan lied to Luke and uses the point of view excuse.

    In the prequels we learn about the no attachment thing and some of their philosophy.
    The Jedi place an unnecessary burden on its members.

    If the Yoda had his way Luke wouldn't have been born. Oh and according to Yoda lets not reach out to those in darkness. Yoda doesn't seem to believe they can change. They also didn't seem bothered by people created to fight in a war without a choice, And the separatist are the bad guys, they at least aren't breeding people like livestock.

    I am not saying I hate the Jedi, but they aren't as good as I once thought, and I don't dislike like it as a plot thing I actually think it adds to why Vader turned to the darkside
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I grew up on the OT and loved Yoda and Obi-Wan there, although being young and idealistic as I was, I thought it was a bit pessimistic of them to assume that Vader had to be killed.

    On initial viewings of the PT, I felt pretty close to the way you did, that (in a nutshell) the Jedi did not try to understand Anakin, that they should have let him keep up with his mother and they should have let him marry Padme openly.

    Various discussions about the PT Jedi on this board plus getting older/developing real-life perspectives that have nothing to do with Star Wars or the Jedi have changed my view. I now appreciate what the Jedi were trying to do, and appreciate the vast difference between compassion/friendship and attachment. Anakin and Padme's relationship did produce Luke and Leia, but his unhealthy attachment to her also led him to murder innocent people.

    Gross caricatures all around, as in our world romantic relationships certainly should not be banned, nor do they usually lead to mass murder, but at the same time there are enough stories about people losing their minds over "love" relationships that we could all use a modicum of the serenity that the Jedi taught.

    The clone issue has been covered in numerous threads, but if I'm going to be upset with anyone about it, it would be Palpatine and the Senate.

    As far as Yoda and Obi-Wan, maybe they were pessimistic but it's certainly understandable that they would not believe a Sith could return to the Light if they had never seen it happen, and had seen so many of Vader's atrocities that Luke did not know about.
     
  3. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2004
    If anything, I like the Jedi even more than I did as a child ( and I didn't think that was possible.)

    Do they kind of have an unnatural view of how a Jedi should be? Yep. But they aren't regular humans either. If Spiderman wasn't the dude who said "great power brings great responsibility," I'm sure Lucas would've made Yoda say it at one point.
     
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  4. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2014
    I already told somebody I "loved them or something" today, but yeah, I love you. Or something. This is spot-on.

    Anakin's unrealistic obsession with his own relationship and taking it beyond belief, to the point where it became a self-obsession took him down the drain. Some of the dialogue in ROTS reeks of pure psychopathy and I just cannot be sorry for him at that point. Yes, he was groomed into it, but that's why he shouldn't have been a Jedi in the first place.
     
  5. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2014
    My views on the jedi have changed as well. The thing is, I like the jedi more now then when I was a kid, because I actually sympathize with them a bit. What I mean is that I feel, despite being rather arrogant and even rigid in there rules, all they really wanted was to do what was right. Even if I did't agree with them all the time, I still felt in there own way they were truly trying regain peace to the galaxy. What I find interesting about the jedi is that here are beings that could easily become rulers of the galaxy but instead try to help people. Unlike the sith, the jedi know that peace with tyranny is not really peace at all, and which is why the jedi always try to find a more nonviolent solution to problem. If the jedi always went violent with negotiations then they would be simple viewed as no worse then the sith. That's just my thoughts on the whole matter.
     
  6. Empress Shatterpoint

    Empress Shatterpoint Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2013
    I'll dissect how I felt about Jedi after each movie in my first viewing ever:

    ANH: Guardians of Peace and Justice are rather interesting unique kind of authorities however the Force sounds a little dumb. Am I really meant to believe there is one all-encompassing 'religion-like' energy shield that guides a select few? I rolled my eyes at Luke hearing Obi-Wan's voice and at Luke being guided by The Force in his flight towards the Death Star destruction.

    TESB: Oh no, there are Force Ghosts? Jedi get to cheat death? Who the hell is this annoying green creature? Blast, it's Yoda the Jedi Master! ...what on earth is he saying about Luke being 'too old' to train??? How can one be too old for something in their early 20s? Hey you Green Grampa, you're in no position whatsoever to make 'it's too late' judgments. What an hypocritical ageist Master. Well, at least he's the only ageist Jedi--Obi-Wan wasn't like that. *Finds new respect for Obi-Wan*. Heh, looks like he will train Luke anyway.

    After seeing Yoda instructing Luke in the ways of the Force, I see both Yoda and the Force in new lights. I see that despite some rather hasty narrow-minded judgments from Yoda he truly is a Master of the Force. Even further than that--he IS the Force. He is in tune with the ripples of life more than anyone in the trilogy and knows to look at the core of things rather than at their prejudiced surface levels. The Force now seems like a mystical power one obtains by their character gems rather than a half-religion granting believers with insights. Dark side and Light side are broken down as orientations one chooses as moral or immoral paths. Fairy-tale-esque warnings about the lures of the dark side are given. The cave becomes my favorite scene ever for its awesome character symbolism.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan warn Luke not to go save his friends...why? Not only are Leia and Han friendships they are important members of the Alliance. Leia (at this point) is an Alliance Leader and Han is one of the only survivors in the Death Star trench(proving his superior fighting abilities)--they are not expendable members by any means. Friendship aside one could make an argument about the safety of Leia and Han being for the Greater Good, the better future of the Alliance. So good for you, Luke, go ahead. Why are they warning Luke about the dark side? It's not like he has demonstrated an affinity with it...

    ROTJ: Yoda and Obi-Wan give Luke half-arsed reasons why they would not tell him the truth. Obi-Wan seems pretty unapologetic yet Yoda seems to be genuine in his 'not ready for the burden were you'. So Luke is told he has to kill Vader. Should be his decision to make but honestly, I don't even understand why Luke is reluctant. He doesn't even know Vader. Holy crap, what's this nonsense about wanting to redeem Vader? Cannot believe the naivete of thinking you can change a stranger who has become 'more machine than a man'. Vader has not shown one bit of mercy on-screen.

    *Gets idea*. Aha! I know what will happen. Luke will undergo a personal growth by trying and trying and failing to save his father, finally accepting he is beyond is reach and fulfilling his duty. He will learn to let go of his impossible ideals and accept that Yoda and Obi-Wan are right. ...Oh dear lord, Luke has given himself up? What in Lucifer's pantalon?!...Wake up, Luke! Hmm, so Vader looks a tad regretful, does he? It's a trick, it's a trick...Luke abandons his weapon--oh dear...he gets electrocuted. Vader watches. Luke, come on, when are you going to realize Vader won't come to your help? Reach the Force and bring back your lightsaber or something. Ah geeze, his neurons are getting fried...

    Vader sacrifices himself to save Luke, killing the Emperor and Empress Shatterpoint has a major brain fart. *Uh???* Whaaaaat....'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO'. *Thinks about it moments later*. 'YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS'. A redemption twist is actually a more deep and unique ending. My heart feels for both Luke and Vader at their last conversation. I like the three Force-Ghosts at peace with each other and smiling proudly at Luke. Recognizing HE was right after all.

    AFTER THE FIRST TRILOGY: So yeah that covers my feelings about Jedi matters in my first viewing of the OT. I have to thank TESB for really deepening my linking of Jedi and the Force. Also for giving me one of my favorite character-Yoda. And I have to thank ROTJ to make me look past my old 'but this is unrealistic!' view on redemption and sides-switching. I'll cover the PT & how some things changed when I have time.
     
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  7. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I don't think I've ever disliked the Jedi, but Anakin's Trilogy certainly made me ponder their situation and way of life.
    They're good-hearted people who do their best to uphold peace and justice within a galaxy-wide democracy, which is a very hard job. They face corruption and temptation on a daily basis and for an order of thousands to deal with that in a republic of quadrillions upon quadrillions... Well, it's damn near impossible to keep that together.
    What's more, the Jedi have pledged their allegiance to a government, which means that they must follow a set of rules that's dictated by someone else. A philosophically minded person, such as myself, might ask whether it was a wise decision for a group of spiritual peace keepers who are compassionate towards all life to become part of a governing body; whether they might have better served the Force as an independent body.
    On the other hand, would the Republic, or any other government, have allowed Jedi involvement without their loyalty? Probably not.
    Theirs is not an easy situation, but I'd say they chose the wisest route; to uphold the principles of democracy to the best of their ability. After all, their allegiance is to the Senate, not to its leader, which means that they serve democracy itself as opposed to the whims of its politicians.
    Still, they're bound to end up in sticky situations now and then - such as the case with the clone army. There was no easy way out of that one, but as far as they could see, going along with it and minimizing casualties as best they could was the least bad option.
     
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  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I like them more.

    I grew up watching the OT as a kid, years before the PT came out.

    Despite liking Yoda as an individual, mostly because he was entertaining to watch, I can't say I had any real love for the idea of Jedi in general. Cool swords aside, I was more into Han and the physical aspects of Star Wars; the spiritual stuff didn't interest me at all, I was never interested in the Force. To me, it was just a source for superpowers and nothing more. I thought the Jedi were kinda like crazy old wizards, I guess, and wizards have never interested me. I never really cared for their philosophy, I didn't care about any philosophy, I was a child, but I still have little to no interest in philosophy even as an adult. My mindset was, and still very much is, aligned with Han's. Mostly. As a kid, I didn't pretend to be a Jedi, I never had any toy lightsabers. Even when I would pretend to be Luke Skywalker, here to rescue you, it was adventurer Luke, not Jedi Luke.

    I never really thought about what the Jedi would be like in the PT era. I'm not sure I have any real fondness for the idea of them being roving pairs of do-gooders, like some sort of hippies or even a bunch of Jesuses, as "good" as that might make them...or as more Christ-like as that might make them.

    I have much more appreciation for them as Buddhist or Shaolin monks living in a temple. I kinda like the rule against attachments, I think it suits them. I think the whole set up, what we see of them in the PT, suits the idea of Jedi....much better than the roving bands of Jesus hippies. I have no interest in the Jedi being anything like Christ.

    We're talking about Jedi here, they shouldn't be "like us", they shouldn't be normal. They shouldn't all kick back at the bar after a day of Jedi-ing, then go home to their spouses, wake up the next morning and have breakfast with the kids, eating space bacon and drinking out of their "Galaxy's Greatest Jedi Dad" mug. Wtf is that. They should be, they should live, you know, spiritually or monastically or whatever. I have no interest in Jedi romance, it doesn't make sense to me.

    I don't really want the Jedi to be anything like me. I'm not a Jedi, I'm nothing like them, and they shouldn't be anything like me, they shouldn't live like me.

    I'm still not really a fan of Jedi, I probably never will be, but I like the PT version better than the ideas I've heard about the Jedi based on the OT. The PT way seems more "realistic" to me.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It never occurred to me that the Jedi were supposed to be spiritual/religious until I joined this board, I had always seen "the Force" as the source of their power and nothing more than that, which is why I find some of the comments about how Star Wars was "always" spiritual, very surprising. And the commentary has gotten more heavy-handed since TCW.

    *shrug* Doesn't stop me from seeing it the way I see it though. I'm definitely more Han, despite role-playing Leia as a kid. :p
     
  10. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013
    The Jedi are great heroes in my opinion.

    I remember always liking them as a kid, and even wanting to be one when I grew up (Obviously this was when I was 5). Nowadays, I still want to be like them, but in a different sense.

    I find them to be very unique and refreshing among the usual cast of heroes, and to be ones that can manage to avoid some of the pitfalls and problems of the type of heroes we are usually subject to watching nowadays. In particular one of the things that really bothers me about the heroes of today, especially when you look at the usual slot of Marvel/DC movies, is how these heroes fall prey to being portrayed as these I-work-out-a-ton, muscle dudes, that glorify the Hercules ideal of what the hero should be like.

    And the Jedi don't fall prey to that, thankfully, because they are capable of realizing that "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter", and that the real power that matters is that which relies more on wisdom, morality and even spirituality, not raw power and brute strength.
     
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Yoda saw Dooku, who was very dear to him, fall to the dark side and never return, despite his efforts to bring Dooku back into the fold of the Jedi it never happened. I beleive that combined with Order 66 created a great disillusion for Yoda towards the dark side, and I think it's reflected pretty will in ROTS where he automatically casts out the notion of trying to talk to Anakin, but rather tells Obi-Wan he must seek him out and destroy him. And then later telling Luke that a dark sider can never be redeemed.
     
  12. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Cushy never overly liked Jedi to begin with and yes I truly dislike them now. They are glaring hypocrites.
     
  13. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 28, 2014
    I don't like Yoda much. He said lies were Count Dooku's ways, but what about him?
    Also one thing that bother's me is the Jedi mind trick, I didn't think about that in my original post.
    Qui-gon using it on Watto to get what he wanted, wouldn't that be like stealing, because Watto truly is not consenting tothe sale if it had worked.
    I like to think that there are different types of Jedi and they don't all have the same beliefs. Yoda's Jedi order is flawed, but I still like some of the Jedi such as Obi-wan(who I think should have left the order)

    Also separating children from families
     
  14. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I seriously applaud that Ahsoka (not a fan) and Dooku (like him lots) had the sense and guts to leave. I wish Obi had. Your concerns are some of mine. I despise how Jedi lie and manipulate right and left but are never held to account. They do what they want and get a pass as 'good guys' rather like the Rebels cast. Poor messages indeed and no consistency. Give Cushy flawed characters but don't have them lie about it. I never see the oft lauded Jedi 'compassion'. They are selfish, arrogant, and self-righteous.
     
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  15. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    I always thought the Jedi were good people that tried to hard to follow a set of disciplines that would be difficult for any person, group or organization to follow. I well admire them for trying that though. That was their fatal flaw, their doctrines and rules. Qui Gon is what the Jedi order should have been modeled after. It would have fared better in the long run for them if they have.
     
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  16. hairymuggle

    hairymuggle Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2014
    They didn't really touch on the Jedi in the OT, so they just seemed eccentric to me. But the PT and comics did such a good job with their characterisations that now I don't want Star Wars without Jedi - everybody else seems so dull and stupid in comparison. The Jedi characters are the most complicated and nuanced people with the most varied personalities, and there's so much emotions their stories can bring out. One of the things I love most about Jedi is that they don't conform to one specific "model". As long as you seem or want to be on the right path (i.e not slaughtering children for revenge), they more or less put up with it. Qui-Gon and Quinlan Vos are prime examples.

    I think "hating the Jedi" is the current trend in the fandom now (Thanks a lot Filoni), but I hope it doesn't last too long. I won't be able to stand it if every subsequent writer decides to cast them as the trollish villains without even trying to unravel their complexities. So many missed opportunities already.
     
  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    I liked the Jedi, from the moment I was first introduced to them. What they had to say in the OT, particularly, made a great deal of sense. Yoda's teachings are intended as, and are, Zen teachings. Zen teaching rejects doctrine and are intended to make the learner think. It doesn't surprise me that many didn't see them as being inherently spiritual - it isn't rammed down the viewer's throat and the message is pretty pure and straightforward. It is simply about what it is to try and live as a good person.

    That's what Luke understands at the end of ROTJ...which is why he recognises at that moment what Yoda had said to him (about him not yet being a Jedi) - what Yoda and Obi-Wan had really been teaching him. That is why, at that moment, he says "I am a Jedi"

    Without understanding the nature of the teachings then they (the Jedi) can be misunderstood. A really good example is Yoda's "There is no why". It's not that there is no why, or that Yoda 'can't be bothered'...the answer itself is designed to form a reaction. Anybody's reaction to that is, inevitably, a variation of; "What do you mean there is no why?"

    The truth is, there is no "why" that Yoda can teach directly so...where might you find this "why"? Zen teaching is about making the learner think , strive for answers themselves - not giving the a rote response for them to cement in memory. Being told 2+2=4 and remembering that is not the same as learning how 2+2=4. The former will allow you to answer that specific question, the latter will allow you to figure out so much more.

    People seem to believe that Luke is being trained to kill Vader...but if that is so, why is his test in the cave on Dagobah a failure? Luke can't (at the time) understand why. He cut Vader down, and is further confused by having seen himself there....

    Like a cleverly told story, all the pieces come together as in your mind you join the dots...a bigger picture emerges that you have been blinded to.

    The Jedi are like the romantic notion of the 'perfect knight' - but more than that. They demand of themselves, not necessarily of others. And ultimately, what that comes down to is...to be at peace with yourself, to know truly what your actions and motivations are, to recognise that your thoughts may not always be as pure as you might on the surface believe they are. It is not about power, about being all-powerful but about recognising the limits of your power..and when it is right to use it.

    How could I dislike characters that demand so much of themselves? Especially when their motivation is to help others?
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I'm in two minds about the subject.

    I easily prefer Yoda in ESB and ROTJ to his PT incarnation, so despite the PT giving some needed context to high ranking Jedi like Yoda, I think the character was arguably stronger without the back-story. The same can also partially be said for the way the Council works in the Prequels... although I didn't have a problem with it in '99 - I hadn't really any specific expectation on how they would work yet - I think the Jedi would have seemed wiser less connected to and dependent on the Republic and the galaxy Capital. Part of their tragic flaw I guess.

    Having said that, I loved seeing the Jedi at their peak, unknowingly moving towards the darker times. Qui-Gon is one of my favourite characters in any of the current films, and TPM is an IMO underrated personal favourite of mine, the Jedi of the era being a big part of this. To me, the grey area added by having made the Jedi Order appear to have perhaps grown stagnant is more to make you philosophically question than an indicator that they "had it coming". You really have to watch the whole (six movie) saga to understand where they went wrong, if you wish to see that, and Luke emerges in ROTJ as a kind of ideal Jedi symbolic of their return. I like the significance of Luke coming from a humbler upbringing than the PT Jedi giving him perhaps an improvisational edge over the Jedi of the past. I do respect the PT Jedi, and I feel the loss and betrayal when they are stabbed in the back while fighting a war they were basically pushed into.
     
  19. Pain and Suffering

    Pain and Suffering Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2015
    I used to be fine with the Jedi. I was never exactly a fan of Yoda, but I didn't mind him much, either. Kenobi even used to be my favorite character in ROTS. I pretty much took them as warriors who swung around cool laser swords without paying much attention to their code.

    Then, I saw the Clone Wars.

    After that I started thinking about StarWars on a more philosophical level and studying everyone's motives.Suddenly, the Jedi didn't seem like such great guys after all, and for many reasons.

    1. Their "no emotions" rule is stupid. Everyone has emotions. I get trying not to let them rule you, especially the bad ones, but some emotions are good.

    2. The fact that you can't marry if you are a Jedi. I don't see how getting married is a bad thing. I guess I could even see if it was lightly discouraged (emphasis on lightly) but I think Jedi should have that option open to them if they wish.

    3. How exclusive they are. Basically, if you think a bit differently, you get treated as a kind of outcast. Examples of this are Qui-Gon, Quinlan Vos and Anakin.

    4. The Jedi have a tendency to think they are better than the ordinary, everyday citizen.

    5. Apparently face value is more important than the lives of their members. They were willing to give up Ahsoka and let her face her trial outside the Jedi Order, where I have no doubt that she would have gotten the death penalty. So they were willing to let a previous member of their Order die for something she didn't even do. And when they find out that they were wrong, instead of admitting their mistake and that they were wrong, they instead act like Ahsoka's trial was some blessing in disguise, and that they couldn't have planned it better. Clearly they have learned nothing. The only ones who were genuinely sorry were Anakin and Plo Koon, and Obi-wan seemed mildly troubled.

    6. Their arrogance. Jedi think that their code is infallible. It's not.

    7. Don't even get me started on the Jedi's slave army.....

    8. I don't like how they claim to be peacekeepers, and not soldiers or warriors, when it seems like they are the same thing. If you're fighting in a war, you're a warrior.

    9. They are contradictory.

    10. The "we're humble monks" facade. I know they can't have possessions, but they live in a giant temple/palace, and have all their needs taken care of for life.

    11. They lie. Especially in the OT, when Yoda and Obiwan lie about Luke's father. Plo Koon also lies to cover for Ahsoka in the Citadel trilogy.

    12. Kidnapping. I think you should be able to decide whether you want to be a Jedi or not, not have someone else make it for you.

    13. Jedi seem to sit and wait around for a situation to become irreparable, and then try to fix it. Like at the end of The Phantom Menace. Qui-Gon and Obiwan are the only two Jedi deployed to help reclaim Naboo, yet we see many of the Jedi at the celebration. That seems like when things are hard, they are nowhere to be found, but when there is a celebration, let the good times roll! Or like when they learn their army was basically given to them by the enemy, yet they do nothing about it. They play with fire and are surprised when they get burned.

    I understand that the Jedi have good things about them, and they are a better alternative to the Sith, but they have many flaws that can be hard to overlook.
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    TCW writers wanted the viewers to dislike the Jedi.
     
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  21. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    I hope Luke wouldn't be like the old Jedi Order on Coruscant.
    In one of the TCW novels they had a different group of Jedi that was smaller and allowed emotion and families and trained older people. I wonder if we will ever see that on screen.

    I'd rather the Jedi be just a group of force users that try to help people and do good without the
    -taking little kids from families
    -anger leading to the darkside (not all anger is bad)
    -not allowed to love
    -no attachments
    -will of the Force thing
    -balance of the force thing (I'd rather the Force just be a power people possess not some Sentient being that needs to be balanced like a teeter-totter I consider this a mistaken Jedi belief in my own canon)


    Now even though the Jedi were flawed, I don't think Palaptine should have wiped them out. I hope no one thinks that. I do like Jedi
    such as Luke, Obi-wan, Plo Koon, Jocasta Nu, and others but I don't like some of their choices.

    In the OT I suppose it could be viewed that the Jedi learned from some of their mistakes(not all)
    They didn't forbid Luke family.
    They trained him later.
    They didn't spout balance the teeter-totter of light and dark.

    I'd want to see the Jedi more of a profession such a Samurai or knights(but do good) instead of a flawed order of fighting monks.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Luke being "allowed" to have a family was not a case of the OT Jedi "learning from their mistakes" as it was the OT and much of the EU being made before Lucas had decided that the PT Jedi would forbid marriage and family. (And I think he only did that to make Anakin and Padme's relationship "forbidden").

    What Karen Traviss did with the Altisian Jedi was to retcon/incorporate a group of Jedi who were, again, created before the PT, and use them for her own purposes, which were, generally, trying to paint the PT Jedi in the worst light possible.

    I don't care if the ST Jedi allow westernized families or not, but I hope they do continue to teach the importance of emotional control, and the fact that lack of emotional control--whether the emotions are positive or negative--can and often does lead to terrible behavior or acts.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    When does Yoda lie to anyone? He conceals the truth from Luke, seemingly because he wasn't ready, it is Obi-Wan who outright lies to him.
    I will give you a golden tip: There is no organization in existence that isn't flawed. Flaws are simply a part of the human (or in SW sentient) experience. Qui-Gon mind tricking a greedy junk dealer would have been fine. When Watto got the opportunity he would have been able to exchange the Republic credits for whatever they use on Tatooine, and dozens if not hundreds of Naboo lives would have been saved in the time they wasted podracing.

    Those who nitpick about the flaws of the Jedi often seem to forget that they are almost always in a situation where they must pick the lesser of two evils. Inconvenience a junk dealer to stop a planetary occupation? Seems like a no brainer to me. Momentarily "mind wipe" a stormtrooper in order to conceal droids who are the key to toppling a galactic dictatorship? Yeah, sounds like a plan to me.

    ps TCW sucks.

    Yeah don't you get it? Nitpicking the flaws of the good guys and hating them for it makes you waaay cooler and thought provoking!
     
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  24. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Oh I'm sure they whole forbidden of families thing came after the OT. I was referring more to an "in universe explanation" for it Luke being allowed to live with his family.

    I do think people should be in control of their emotions, but I think the Jedi went to extremes.
    Having anger isn't bad, but yes you should control it and not have unbridled rage.

    I don't think the PT was handled well. Like Anakin, the Jedi were better before them getting shown in the PT.
    I still don't like the anger=darkside, imagining a Jedi was better than seeing the Jedi.
    I see it similar to what they did with Anakin. ROTJ Anakin is better than PT Anakin.
    Sometimes it's better to leave things up to the imagination.

    I don't have a problem with flawed people in SW, (it's realistic and it's hard to find non-flawed people, plus there would be no SW if everyone was perfect)

    My point is to me the Jedi were more likeable in OT when they were more of a mystery just like with Anakin.
     
  25. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2014
    If characters were not flawed, there would be no story to tell.
     
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