Full Series The Mortis Thread

Vorax by the logic you just laid out they are not Jedi because a squire whose entire organization is terminated would never achieve any higher rank.

 

That is the extreme you wanted to take it to. Luke is not a Jedi either following that VERY same logic. Yoda did not recognize Luke as a Jedi, which apparently is synonymous to being a Jedi Knight, there was no concept or mention of Padawan in the OT either. He had to confront & destroy Vader in a duel, we never see Luke knighted or receiving any formal rank either. We get Luke referring to himself as a Jedi and Jedi Knight on Tatooine and thought himself a Jedi during Yoda's scene, "then I am a Jedi?" which Yoda said to "no" ect. In fact there is no mention of Kenobi even making him a formal apprentice, he just said basically yeah come with me and learn the ways of the force , then he died shortly thereafter. There was no special process or ritual which he could of had Luke make an oath right there on Tatooine, a Squires /Padawan's oath but there is nothing.

Jarrus however reached a formal rank of Jedi Padawan , Ezra is basically like Luke of the series while Kannan doubles as Han Solo and Obi Wan.

 

Mortis also means "of death" in Latin. Doesnt really strike me as a place other than a tomb, mausoleum or even a burial pyramid where they would bury people alive to go with their master to the afterlife and sealed from the outside . Even the term Anchorite means "one who has retired from the world". This is directly taken from Christian monastic rite of consecration that closely resembled the funeral rite, following which ideologically they would be considered dead to the world, a type of living saint which does describe this trio from what the Father claims and Anakin wouldve have stayed in this prison-tomb until presumably the end of time replacing the dying Father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchorite

 

Vorax no, the logic I laid out does not lead to the conclusion that Luke could never have received advanced enough training to be considered a Jedi because unlike Kanan and Ezra he learned at the feet of Jedi Masters as an adult who they were aware was their last hope. Kanan was a kid who only learned what every other kid learned, and Ezra only has him to learn from. At least as far as we can tell with the plot points that have been revealed thus far.

 

Kanan was officially in the Jedi once they picked him up as a infant and was under training and indoctrination since then, Luke really cannot compare to this level of training, plus Kanan has fighting experience since Order 66, Luke was a farm boy picking off rats in his T-16, that was about as close to combat he ever got. Lars did not want him to go the Imperial academy cause he feared his powers would show and he'd be either killed or recruited by Vader and his Inquisitors and become a monster like his old man. The whole point was that Luke was too old and much older than Anakin whom they also did want to train because he was too old and only did so out of respect for Jinn. Yoda reluctantly trained Luke, and always brought up his age as being to old and expressed much doubt in him because of his age and attachments towards the life he has lived and friends. Luke had unlearn all that he learned. Luke had a crash course Jedi training and did not complete his training under Yoda as was Kenobi's plan, he chose to leave to rescue his friends in Cloud City rather than ignore them per Yoda's instruction and per the Jedi way.

Generally speaking, I do not see how you compare Luke's few minutes or hours with Kenobi and maybe few days or a week with Yoda to Kanan and Ezra who will last seasons(years)together training and taking on a sith acolyte or more than one. Kanan had Jedi training for years and the advantage of the Jedi Temple. Luke only managed to defeat Vader when he called upon the darkside and Vader himself was not trying to kill Luke, he wanted to lure him to the darkside for his master. Luke would've been no match for Vader if Luke was not his son and 0 match if up against the Emperor as he never never completed his training. He did not defeat Vader the way Kenobi and Yoda had wished, he had just the crude & rudimentary basic skills to whatever Yoda could teach.

Luke returned to Dagobah to finish where he left off, but Yoda was sick and dying was unable to teach Luke anything else. Yoda was the last of the Jedi Knights. So Luke's plan was to try and lure Vader back to the goodside but if he failed he knew the Death Star was going to be destroyed by the imminent secret Rebel attack. Luke also could not bring himself to kill his father , and Ben realizes that Luke who was their only hope, did not want to kill Vader so Yoda/Kenobi's plan was out the window and it was Luke's show and plan after he left Dagobah. They were banking on keeping Luke in the dark about Vader being his dad, once he learned that, their plan was shot. Luke went to the Death Star knowing he faced certain doom, and if he was not strong enough to resist the darkside he knew he would be destroyed along with the Emperor and Vader. Remember Luke threw away his Lightsaber which no Jedi would, it is their life and it was a rejection of everything that was taught by Kenobi and Yoda.

I do not agree with Kanan and Ezra being Jedi as to me this anachronistic and ruins the narrative of Luke and the OT, but it is what it is.

 

Vorax I find it hard to debate how much training Kanan got when we have no real idea yet. But not all hours of training are equal, it matters who the teacher was, what their goal in teaching was, and how they went about it. Additionally, your characterization of how long Luke trained with Yoda is not in line with George Lucas'.

Just to be clear, I also would not see Kanan and Ezra being Jedi as complicating the OT in any sense - there's no way they're turning Darth Vader away from the dark side and bringing the Empire down in the process - so that's not why I don't see them as Jedi. In this era the important thing is that the Jedi have been hunted down to near extinction and Luke is the only hope for their resurrection and the defeat of the Sith.

 

Well sure, the show hasnt come out yet, but these characters will be better trained than Luke, as this series is for the new generation and is a take off of CW and also geared towards a younger base(who are not familar with Luke) as well as fans of the show and OT. The show will carry into seasons if successful , just like the new trilogy will focus on the next generation of characters, Luke is not center stage anymore and we were used to that cause of the EU and Lucas controlling everything. These days their is spinoff movies and all sorts of possibilities we did not have under Lucas. Luke's importance and age is a factor, by the new movies he's old and in this series too young. I would've preferred a series sent between ANH and ESB myself with Luke as the lead.

Its not my characterization though, it is what is in the movie. Lucas during the OT was making it up as he went along. Maybe Lucas watches an alternate cut which we dont., but whatever.


Personally I do not see the logic in hiding Skywalker under his real name, with a group of people Anakin himself knew existed. Tatooine is a planet this series always returns to and it is hardly an unknown waste. Imperial troopers come and go as they please. Anakin Skywalker was famous on Tatooine and his exploits during the Clone Wars wouldve made him a media sensation and well known name and face, a planet inhabited by all sorts of pirates, bounty hunters, Imperial and Republic agents is not really a good hiding place under your own name. Word wouldve also traveled between the Skwyalker and Lars family, as his mom was married to the father and Anakin's slaughter of the Sandpeople would've traveled amonst the community as he wiped out an entire dwelling of them singlehandedly.

Furthermore Obi Wan was like 62 years and severely out of shape(he barely fought Vader just kept his lightsaber ignited its hard to call that scene a duel)and didnt seem that interested in training Luke which he should prepared him since childhood and raised himself if he was ever truly supposed to aid in bring down the Sith. He he had all those years to do it. Even if he respected Lars' wishes about leaving the boy alone, he never bothered with Luke. Plus Kenobi let the choice be Luke's, it was by mere chance that the Stormtroopers terminated the Lars family, and Luke was driven more by revenge against the Empire than some crusade. Obi Wan was out of the loop during ANH, he hadnt heard the name "Obi Wan" used in a long long time. So if suddenly Kanan and Ezra hook up with Kenobi, it destroys that out as well. And had the plans went directly to Obi Wan instead of the jawa's bring the droids to Luke's by chance, there is really nothing to suggest Luke would've still been involved.

 

I'm not making that assumption and don't want to debate it until we have something concrete to go off of. Also, when in the OT you're talking about Luke is crucial. I'm expecting them to be more powerful than Ep. IV but less powerful than Ep. VI Luke and Filoni to tow that line very carefully.

By your characterization I am referring to the short amount of time you described Luke spending on Dagobah in Ep. V. That was certainly not explicit in the film and George Lucas has said it was longer than you claim.

 

I do not believe there is an answer on timeframe. My timeframe is reasonable to what we see on camera on Dagobah. Luke doesnt even have any hair or beard growth so there is no visible time passings and his cloths dont look that worn where there is this grueling training for 30 days out in the bush as he always looks the same really each time they cut back to his scenes.








Come to think of it Luke had no sparring fencing partners, not even Yoda.

You can probably stretch it to a month but nothing realistically longer. His training was incomplete, and he broke training off by dropping Yoda so he can go run off to save his friends. Dropping Yoda didnt seem like a well trained Jedi to me, I can see if he was in control and calmly placed Yoda down but that scene was the opposite of a proper Jedi he was green and sloppy and didnt seem like he learnt much.

 

I'm not sure if I think Luke was a Jedi at that point, honestly, but I am fairly confident that by then he had more advanced training than Kanan. Yoda would be advancing to the really important stuff the masters focused on as soon as possible, not treating him like one of many younglings.

 

On the very basic levels, Kanan training was far superior to Luke's. Yoda gave a crash course in ESB, which wasn't complete because Luke ended it quickly to confront Vader. As a Padawan, Kanan would've had a Master watching over him and teaching how to use the Force and control his emotions, not to abuse the powers; Luke had no choice, but to learn that on his own.

After all, Luke walks into Jabba's Palace, Force Choke two guards and tells Jabba not to underestimate his powers or be destroyed. Not very Jedi like.

 

Hence why I'm not sure I'd consider Luke a Jedi at that point. But in terms of knowing the advanced philosophical stuff the masters focused on I still believe strongly that Yoda would be getting to that ASAP, the opposite of what you would do with one of many younglings at the Jedi Temple or even a typical Padawan. Also consider how much more philosophy Yoda learned than any other Jedi Master as depicted in TCW: The Lost Missions. And unless Kanan starts talking about Mortis and Force-incarnate Priestesses, I'm sticking with that.

 

He briefly focused on the philosophical matters of the Force, but it was so limited that I doubt Luke fully understood it. His final confrontation with Vader might be considered his Jedi Trial, but Luke did taste the dark side. The seeds of the dark side are there, to paraphrase the warning to Ahsoka on Mortis. Not just Mortis, but the Yoda arc touched on aspects of the Force that Luke has no idea about - especially the dreaded midichlorians; Kanan would've known and had a midichlorian count by the Republic.

George Lucas once said (apparently) Luke was the most powerful Jedi ever. Judging by everything we've seen (PT, TCW and OT), that statement is far from true; Luke doesn't even come close. He had no formal training, abused the Force (see Jabba's Palace) and arrogantly called himself a Jedi Knight. Clearly, Yoda never told him about the different ranks within the defunct Jedi Order. Again, Luke received a basic crash course in a month.

Also, I believe Ezra is the same age as Luke; this means Ezra will be training in the Force at a much younger age than Luke and a few years older than Anakin. Just a little interesting fact I noticed about Rebels.

 

When I said I believe Yoda got more into those topics I wasn't referring to his lines from the film, I'm saying I believe strongly that off-screen he got way, way more into that than Kanan would have as a Padawan.

I'd agree that not everything GL says can be taken seriously but when it actually makes sense in context I go with his word, like with Luke being on Dagobah a really long time.

 

Yes, but what was said and done off-screen is a huge assumption.

 

Agreed, that's why I'm clarifying what I meant.

 

Lucas is partial to Luke as this character was like his son or fantasy self, a somewhat similar thing occurs by the time of the PT for Anakin. The Skywalker family is very important to him, its his creation. The first season of Rebels should give us an idea of what is going on, I hope,lol. I like Luke too but I do not see his training as being comparable to someone like Kanan's from the stuff I read so far about this character.

If Luke died Yoda and Kenobi wouldve switched to the other, Yoda seemed displeased with Luke and disappointed, only Kenobi seemed to like him and have faith in him. The "other Yoda spoke of" is Leia but in some drafts Leia was not his sister and Vader was not his father so there contrary to Lucas he did not have everything down . Leia is more of a long shot that Luke & they never taught her a thing. There is no explanation why neither Leia or Luke were raised by either Yoda or Kenobi, nor how all those years later they're supposed to take on the Empire complete with an army of Darkside Sith trained Jedi hunters , millions of soldiers, tens of thousands of ships , armored vehicles & super weapons - plus Vader and the Emperor. Do they expect Luke after he's knighted Jedi to just walk up the Imperial fortress and ring the door bell and expect to duel Sidious,lol. There is no Jedi plan in place like Sidious had a plan for years before the Sith revealed themselves, neither Kenobi nor Yoda had anything to do with the Rebel Alliance they were in exile watching the children grow up through the force not their training and preparing them. Least with Kota's story he was out there fighting the Empire and leading rebel military forces, which seems eventually Kanan and the others will do.

 

A group of Jedi Masters and then the Grand Master of the Jedi Order failed to defeat Sidious in RoTS, so I had no idea why Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Luke could eventually defeat the Sith.

It's worth noting Filoni's recent interview when asked about Ezra and Kanan undermining Luke's claim as "last of the Jedi":

Regarding Kanan's training (what Vorax previously mentioned)

It's interesting to note, from the rest of the interview, Filoni is kinda hinting Rebels might run into and past ANH timeline; his comments about the Death Star and whether or not the Ghost crew knew it was destroyed, etc.

 

"Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

 

Quite right. And Luke wasn't a fully trained Jedi Knight, not even close.
Anakin was a full trained Knight and managed to conquer his darkside and then the Emperor (somehow, I doubt Lucas was being that clever).

 

Probably not given that Vader wasn't originally conceived of as being fully trained:

"When I left you I was but the learner."

 

That is possible in reference to not mastering the Force - he was still learning (more or less reference to the dark side); which he obviously was by the time of the OT.

 

Thank you so much for reminding me about Yoda's use of "fully trained Jedi Knight" while talking about this stuff. I'm gonna be bringing this up so often when this issue comes up it's going to piss some people off. Go off what's actually in the films, not your impressions, people!!!!

 

Probably Anakin still holding a grudge for being denied a seat on the Jedi council and being granted the rank of Master for all those years. lol

 

Going by Ep. III that wouldn't surprise me at all...